Elbow dropping... innocuous or a damnable curse?

Elbow dropping... innocuous or a damnable curse?

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elbow drop

Scott Lee said:
It's important to recognize that Robles had the elbow drop due to being stretched out on the shot. Otherwise, I saw no elbow drop in any other shots. Even though you can see his and Santos' elbows on all shots, what you CAN see is that the tip finishes the same place every time...and it's not extended and off the table like a elbow drop produces.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...


Scott,

I did watch the videos, particularly the parts where we can see the elbow movement, multiple times. While Tony used a short stroke and a perfect pendulum on a few shots most had some normal elbow movement and Santos typically had more movement. When I read about the elbow remaining still this isn't what I picture. I realize this in no way resembles a pump stroke which I sometimes use, particularly on a bar table in tight places, it just isn't what I thought you were trying to teach either.

This illustrates the value of an instructor once again. Books and video are fine but they don't give the feedback needed.

Hu
 
on one of Robles' shots he clearly dropped his elbow. not sure what rack it was or what ball he was shooting, but it was the shot diagrammed below. i can go back and watch my tape to get more specifics if needed.

DCP

CueTable Help

 
Why might he do that slight, or perhaps more pronounced, drop?

One possibility is that he's shot certain shots so many times one way that gives him the results he's looking for. It may be that there are other ways to shoot the shot, but if he consistently drops his elbow on a specific shot, he may have found over time that that's what he needs to do. The shot DCP diagrammed above may present difficulties, not only in making the ball, but in getting the cue ball to move in a specific way after contacting the object ball. In the shot above, if he wanted to shoot the shot with low left and bring the cue ball back to the middle of the table, he might want to shoot the shot slowly, trying to maximize the time the tip touches the cue ball. Sometimes a slight swooping motion will help that work for this shot. It's also possible that depending on the tip on his cue, that shooting it differently my blow shape.

Of course, someone else may pull off the shot without those gymnastics.

When Don Feeney showed me one way to shoot the shot I mention, he performed it as I described.

When I've practiced the shot I mentioned, I've been unable to pull the shot off with the position desired if I don't use a bit of swoop, combined with a long bridge.

Maybe someone else can do it the other way. I just haven't been able to.

Am I wrong to shoot the shot like that? Of course not.

Flex
 
Flex said:
Of course, someone else may pull off the shot without those gymnastics.



Maybe someone else can do it the other way. I just haven't been able to.

Am I wrong to shoot the shot like that? Of course not.

Flex
Click to expand...

Amen...tap, tap, tap! We get the job done however we know best! :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
I don't know Scott Lee but I do know Randy G. and respect his opinions greatly. However, I must point out the obvious. No matter what anyone says it is impossible to play pool while keeping your elbow from moving. Tony and Santos are probably opposite extremes. Santos has as much work or more on his stroke as anybody, including Efren, in the game. His stroke is exactly like Efren's, is it not? Tony tries to be more compact. Their elbow movements are almost identical.

Therefore the point of this argument, imo, should be whether or not it is advisable to TRY to keep the elbow and shoulder from moving, since it is quite impossible to stop it from moving.

unknownpro
 
unknownpro said:
I don't know Scott Lee but I do know Randy G. and respect his opinions greatly. However, I must point out the obvious. No matter what anyone says it is impossible to play pool while keeping your elbow from moving. Tony and Santos are probably opposite extremes. Santos has as much work or more on his stroke as anybody, including Efren, in the game. His stroke is exactly like Efren's, is it not? Tony tries to be more compact. Their elbow movements are almost identical.

Therefore the point of this argument, imo, should be whether or not it is advisable to TRY to keep the elbow and shoulder from moving, since it is quite impossible to stop it from moving.

unknownpro
Click to expand...

While it may be impossible for YOU, it is quite simple for Randy and I to play with a very natural, repeatable pendulum stroke, with NO elbow dropping movement. You say you 'respect his opinions greatly', yet you maintain that what we both say is impossible. You can't have it both ways. It is not only quite possible to not involve the shoulder (i.e.: elbow drop), but in our opinion, quite easy, natural, and repeatable, with no tension and no stress.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
F Y I,
i bought myself a mirror at Walmart tonight. going to put it up on the wall soes i can get a look at myself and see what i am doing/or what i've done. it was only $9, so i figure it cant hurt.

DCP
 
There's no such thing as a pro who never drops the elbow. I dunno if the point was made in this thread yet but on longer stretches or shots where a longer follow through is needed... the elbow has to drop to allow the forearm to travel forward enough to finish the stroke.

I don't claim to be a mechanics god, but there's no reason to think there's any flaw in having a slight (4-5 inch) drop on most shots. I don't think eliminating that drop would improve anything, and it would require making a conscious effort to fight against what your arm naturally wants to do.

Take 20 pros who have fairly standard 'by the book' strokes and you'll see they all drop a little... corey, neils, thorsten, engert... 30 seconds watching any of them and you'll see it.

If a person is going to be productive trying to train his stroke, it should be to eliminate excessive drop that goes beyond a few inches, but it's useless to agonize over getting rid of the drop entirely because it's not natural and dozens of world champions with great fundamentals do very well with it.
 
CreeDo...Like I said, it may not be natural to you. However it IS to both Randyg and myself, among many, many other students and longtime players.
Some does it and some doesn't...that about covers it.:rolleyes: :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
?????????

What about the Keither his elbow position ran east an west an at one time or another he has busted everyone that could play. Maybe we are all doing it wrong. Some players are what I call lay-down some are stand-up basically it what works for you. Some players use one type alignment some use another. Some players have different type strokes Hopkins, Hall an Mcready all Champions an they all make balls. Cloneing strokes in my opinion you will never reach your potential. There are no shortcuts to becoming an accomplished player. You must play many different players continually practice develop a stroke an stay in stroke. I'm not saying pool school is a bad thing but it might be only a small part of getting to where you want to go. Pool like anything else if you want to achieve greatness is hard work. I believe by the time Landon Shuffet is 16 yrs. old he will be there. Why because he works hard on his game an is always playing different levels of competition. His stroke is nothing like his dads kids have what I call live arms an they can le the shaft out. So like Allen Iverson says Practice! Practice!
Pinocchio
 
From another thread... what' is a "double fulcrum" stroke?

JAM said:
My boyfriend's cue is a heavy cue, and he strokes 'em pretty strong. In fact, he can execute shots that others wouldn't even attempt and make 'em. I will ask him when he wakes up why he likes a heavier cue.

The Boar cue guy, Tony, in fact, told him that he noticed that he has a double-fulcrum stroke, much like Efren Reyes, even though he's a side-winder. According to Tony, not all players have the double fulcrum, and it is one of the best attributes in anyone's stroke to have it.

Please don't ask me to explain "double fulcrum" because I can't. :o :eek: :p :D

JAM
Click to expand...

To Bob Jewett, Scott Lee and Randy, in particular...

What is a "double fulcrum" stroke, what do you think of it, what are its advantages and disadvantages, and is it something one should (after developing a good pendulum stroke) try to learn?

Flex
 
I took a lesson with Scott Lee. I also went to a "pool school" in which Randy G helped out another instructor. I think you will find that these two guys see things the same way. I totally disagree with the statement that it is "impossible" to keep your elbow motionless. I can do it. Randy and Scott can do it. MANY snooker players can do it. I personally drop my elbow some because I am tall, and it would not fit my body type to "pin" the elbow. I completely agree that this is the superior method (not dropping). In logic or engineering, there is a term "parsimony", which states that the superior theory is the one that rests on the fewest variables or assumptions. I think this translates to pool easily-the idea is the fewer things that can go wrong, the more consistent and repeatable the stroke will be.

Yes, most pros drop their elbow a bit. But they also usually do it the same way every time. Also, they have the luxury of honing this skill over countless hours on the table. We will never know if their game would be better or worse if they tried it with the fixed elbow.

I think you need to find something that you can do the same way every time. The right answer might come from how far along you are in your career, and how much time you can commit to a change.

Kerry
 
KMRUNOUT said:
I think this translates to pool easily-the idea is the fewer things that can go wrong, the more consistent and repeatable the stroke will be.

Kerry
Click to expand...

K,
Very well said. I think we can easily add in the notion that the fewer moving parts, and the fewer competing planes in a stroke; then the FASTER a repeatable and reliable stroke may be developed.

I don't care what the pro's do...I do NOT have the time to spend 12 hours a day (as most of them have done) to develop a good stroke. I need a method that can yield results in an hour or two per day. The simpler stroke fits that bill.
 
Scott Lee said:
Flex...Jack White's book, "Let Us To Billiards Away", explains the double fulcrum, and has a drawing of it. Basically it just means that along with the pendulum swing, your wrist flexes too.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

That's one pricey book! A cool $75 on Amazon.

So by flexing the wrist, perhaps you mean, for instance, snapping it on some shots, say a draw shot to get more action on the cue ball, or am I mistaken?

Do you recommend this stroke?

Flex
 
Pinocchio, I can agree up to a point about Landon's stroke not being like dad's. I like your “live arm” description for kids. I am not for sure that my arm is dead but it does get very heavy at times. Here we go. If I were to video Landon in match play and then do likewise for myself I believe we could identify some very important aspects of stroke structure that would be common to each of us. (1) It would easy to see very observable SETS from each of us, the most important aspect of stroke.(2) Also observable would be slow, straight and complete backswings to the PAUSE. (3) It’s easy to see a FINISH in our strokes. Landon and I go through the cueball to a very straight, proper finish. (4) Lastly, we hold the finish or FREEZE. One difference is that Landon does have more elbow movement than me and perhaps not the truest pendulum in the world but what he does is reliable and repeatable. This SPF structure is what I have taught him. Apart from that Landon has his own individual style. Yes, Landon is a hard worker and plays a variety of competition, priceless. I believe the spf structure to be very identifiable in most if not all of the greats you listed.

I always enjoy your posts. I am still laughing about your bowling ball post. Have you put a face on it yet?

I always appreciate your support for Landon.

Stan
 
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Scott Lee said:
While it may be impossible for YOU, it is quite simple for Randy and I to play with a very natural, repeatable pendulum stroke, with NO elbow dropping movement. You say you 'respect his opinions greatly', yet you maintain that what we both say is impossible. You can't have it both ways. It is not only quite possible to not involve the shoulder (i.e.: elbow drop), but in our opinion, quite easy, natural, and repeatable, with no tension and no stress.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...
Why don't you post a video of someone, anyone, running a rack without his elbow moving? Or would that be giving away too many secrets? Seeing is believing. I don't even try to keep my arm still and it moves about the same as Santos' and Tony's so that's not a very good example imo.

unknownpro
 
???????

Maybe Earl has the secret with the hockey type magnetic pad he wears on his elbow. Would it not be possible to over-think pool with millameters here an pads there an your ebow here. When you are in dead punch you know where you want the cue ball to go make it go there. No major thought process going on. If you see a guy playing by himself an he drops his ebow while playing an your a B player are you supposed to go an ask him to play because he drops his elbow you know you are the nutz. I think not does anyone not remeber Louie Roberts he could cut the paint off a ball jacked up on the end rail an might nearly leap onto the table in the follow through. I don't agree on cloning strokes an alignment. The way peoples eyes are set in their head, they have different psycial abilities. different heights an body builds. What my be good for one person doesn't mean its good for another.I don't know about this elbow stuff but I'm thinking that many player that think they don't, do an trying to correct them could lead to destruction. Just one suckers honest opinion!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pinocchio
 
After reading through this thread I'm more convinced than ever that I'd enjoy meeting both Scott Lee & Randy G. The only lessons I've ever had were from a pretty good snooker player & a lot of what they say sounds very familiar.

Mind you, that was years ago & I'm sure my stroke has deteriorated since then!!
 
PKM said:
On a related note, who are the players that get the best grade for keeping the elbow still? Allison Fisher comes to mind.
Click to expand...
On power shots, just about every snooker player drops the elbow. Allison (though far from a snooker player anymore) is no exception.

Even Robles will drop his elbow on occassion, but he seems to hold that elbow still on most power shots.

Fred
 
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