English and how it affects the CB and OB

[iacas]

A very beginner that has never run a rack maybe stay away, but the earlier the better and the more precise the intended tip to CB contact is learned as a result. NOT knowing English is why beginning players miss out on hitting and understanding center ball.

I think you're well beyond "very beginner" if you can even get close to running a rack. "Very Beginners" - a group I consider myself to have left behind only recently - miscue frequently and miss pockets by miles. They're happy to make one shot let alone nine in a row.

So, I read this thread and am personally trying to hit most of my shots center-ball (either with follow or draw)... because I've heard that 80% of shots really only need vertical-axis hits and because I'm trying to learn what the normal angles are for things. I'd also like to avoid, for the time being, so I can see whether I'm hitting the ball where I'd like to.

I'll use English if the shot absolutely requires it AND if the shot is easy enough to make that I don't have to worry much about squirt.

 

[Nico]

Do you know if anyone has any video that would back up this theory? I was always of the belief that the ob always skids first after impact and that any kind of spin on the cue ball doesn't affect the roll of the ob.
Steve

Cueball spin always has an affect on the object ball, the effect is spin-induced throw.

You don't need video, set up an OB close to the side rail at the side pocket. Place the OB a half diamond to the left of the pocket and one diamond out from the side rail. Plan to bank the OB perfectly straight into the rail using left sidespin on the CB. Don't hit the CB too hard, med-soft pace so the english has time to take.

You will notice that the OB fights to bank right, towards the pocket. The OB is fighting to go right because of the reversed spin that was transferred from the CB. This is helpful if you need to bank a ball but can't go into the rail at the angle you normally require. You can manufacture the angle by juicing the CB which in turn juices the OB.

So, I read this thread and am personally trying to hit most of my shots center-ball (either with follow or draw)... because I've heard that 80% of shots really only need vertical-axis hits and because I'm trying to learn what the normal angles are for things. I'd also like to avoid, for the time being, so I can see whether I'm hitting the ball where I'd like to.

I'll use English if the shot absolutely requires it AND if the shot is easy enough to make that I don't have to worry much about squirt.

That's a good attitude to have regarding spin. The thing about 80% of shots can be made with vertical axis spin, that's always been said in regards to straight pool. The theory doesn't really hold water with nineball or one pocket.

 

[Jaden]

Yes, spin is necesary to achieve a high level of play.

I use spin on almost every shot. It is absolutely vital to perfect position play.

However, it is also vital to have a perfectly straight stroke and an ability to let the cue stick do the work. A good way of working on that is to not use any spin at all until you can consistently run out. I mean as in one out of every five racks of nine ball. Just throw the balls out on the table in no particular order and practice using stop english and tangent lines to run them out. This will also help with your speed control.

After you get to where you can run out one out of five racks or consistently run seven or eight balls without missing, then move on to using follow and draw only. This gives you a good idea of the parabola effect of follow and draw and will allow you to make huge gains in CB control when executed properly.

At first when you start using follow and draw it will degrade your potting ability a little bit. Not because follow and draw changes the angle so much as your concentration will veer to something other than your stroke. Once you master concentrating on your stroke your game should improve back to that seven or eight ball level. Once it does, then you can move on to side spin.

Not in conjunction with follow and draw yet, JUST side spin. The best way to adjust for side spin is NOT instinct, it is BHE or aim and pivot. Find your cues pivot point, there are other threads on how to do this. Or find a cue or shaft that has a pivot point that is where you like to have your bridge.

Then you just aim like you did for a stop shot and pivot for the amount and type of english you want. You don't want to pivot up or down for follow and draw though. But you shouldn't be working on combining english yet anyways.

Still the thing you should be concentrating on once you have your aimline is your stroke and letting the cue stick do the work. When I say letting the cue stick do the work, I mean to not force the cue through the CB, let the weight of the cue do the work. Just bring the cue forward to the CB on as straight a line as possible. at the time of contact let the weight of the Cue move through the ball and then follow through four to six inches.

Again once you can consistently run seven or eight balls using side spin, then you can move onto combined english or follow and draw combined with side spin. This is important!!!!, when you combine side spin with follow or draw you can't pivot for the follow and draw portion of the english, if you do, you will increase the amount of swerve and decrease the accuracy of the shot. Elevate or lower your bridge so that the Cue stick can travel on as straight of a path as is possible. Once you can consistently run seven or eight balls using this, then it's just a matter of practicing your fundamentals and starting over on all of the above until you can consistently pocket as many balls as you would like to or that you never miss.

 

[pete lafond]

..

The best way to adjust for side spin is NOT instinct, it is BHE or aim and pivot. Find your cues pivot point, there are other threads on how to do this. Or find a cue or shaft that has a pivot point that is where you like to have your bridge.

.

I had the opportunity to play last night and the humidity had a huge swing from dry to humid. Needless to say I had to adjust to this varying humidity and side spin and throw created noticable differences. (Keep in mind the change was somewhat gradual)

I found myself automatically adjusting because my focus is the OB and I could see how it was moving quite clearly (Once in stroke and ready to pull the trigger I do not look at the CB even after immediate contact with the OB). My adjustment was based upon feel and nothing else. Most importantly, I adjusted quite well. Can you explain to me how to adjust via BHE and aim plus pivot based upon varying degress of change due to humidity while in a game? I would like to experience it. Any help understanding would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Jaden]

I had the opportunity to play last night and the humidity had a huge swing from dry to humid. Needless to say I had to adjust to this varying humidity and side spin and throw created noticable differences. (Keep in mind the change was somewhat gradual)

I found myself automatically adjusting because my focus is the OB and I could see how it was moving quite clearly (Once in stroke and ready to pull the trigger I do not look at the CB even after immediate contact with the OB). My adjustment was based upon feel and nothing else. Most importantly, I adjusted quite well. Can you explain to me how to adjust via BHE and aim plus pivot based upon varying degress of change due to humidity while in a game? I would like to experience it. Any help understanding would be greatly appreciated.

The question you need to ask is what is changing becuase of the humidity. I don't have long to type this because I'm sick and have to leave work, but it's more than likely changing the characteristics of your cue. expanding or contracting the wood and changing it's pivot point. If you find that happening, check your cues pivot point and see if it has changed based on the humidity. I have personally never played anywhere where it doesn't work, but I have also changed my bridge position sub conconsciously.

 

[Jal]

Do you know if anyone has any video that would back up this theory? I was always of the belief that the ob always skids first after impact and that any kind of spin on the cue ball doesn't affect the roll of the ob.
Steve

See videos A.82 through A.87 here:

http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/index.html

These are for sidespin transfers which I'm sure you already know, teach and agree with. But the same applies to spin in any direction.

There's nothing contradictory in saying the OB skids first. I don't think Nico or I said anything different. But in the case where the cueball has optimal draw on it, and the OB immediately collides with another ball straight on, you can get a vague idea of how far the first OB will move forward by thinking of it as rolling naturally, but moving at 1/10'th of its actual speed. In reality, it is sliding as it plows into the second ball, but since it loses all of its linear momentum, the analogy describes its subsequent topspin induced behavior.

Jim

 

[Cory in DC]

If this is true, should I be able to use top spin and impart back spin on the object ball???

This isn't quite the scientific answer everyone else is giving, but look at how you play combo shots where the (1) the CB is close to in-line with the first & second ball, and (2) the second ball is very close to the pocket. Most of the time, I will hit that shot with a lot of follow. As a result, the first ball hits the second ball and comes to a dead stop. I've always attributed this to the CB imparting a small abount of back-spin to the first ball. Certainly, if I take that same combo and hit it with a fair amount of draw then the first ball will make the second ball and then roll forward instead of stopping.

Cory

 

[TheProfessor]

interesting discussion here. to hit on something else that was mentioned, how do you tell what level your pool play is on? when are you considered a beginner, amateur, mid-level, advanced, semi-pro, pro, etc? I haven't played a tournament in 15 years, but I have been playing pool my whole life. I am curious as to how well I will do once I begin playing in tournaments again.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I had the opportunity to play last night and the humidity had a huge swing from dry to humid. Needless to say I had to adjust to this varying humidity and side spin and throw created noticable differences. (Keep in mind the change was somewhat gradual)

I found myself automatically adjusting because my focus is the OB and I could see how it was moving quite clearly (Once in stroke and ready to pull the trigger I do not look at the CB even after immediate contact with the OB). My adjustment was based upon feel and nothing else. Most importantly, I adjusted quite well. Can you explain to me how to adjust via BHE and aim plus pivot based upon varying degress of change due to humidity while in a game? I would like to experience it. Any help understanding would be greatly appreciated.

I find the most noticeable effect from humidity is the increased cloth friction which increases the swerve considerably.

Swerve it quite tricky to deal with using a BHE adjusment method on slow to medium shots on grippy cloth. In such cases, I simply have to aim thicker for OE and thinner for IE. Even a 25" bridge length won't compensate for that swerve deviation when played slow over a decent length. At least on my table with my cue. My table is quite slow as I use an upturned snooker heavy nap cloth. Upturned so the fibers are not directional.

I think like any variable, there is a way to compensate for it, so long as it acts in a predictable manner and that manner can be derived.

 

[cuetechasaurus]

Do you know if anyone has any video that would back up this theory? I was always of the belief that the ob always skids first after impact and that any kind of spin on the cue ball doesn't affect the roll of the ob.
Steve

You and RandyG do this alot. You guys are well known pool instructors and instead of offering knowledge in these types of subjects, you play dumb and ask beginner questions, as if you are getting a kick out of it. Why do you guys do that all the time? Everyone knows who you are already.

 

[pete lafond]

I think like any variable, there is a way to compensate for it, so long as it acts in a predictable manner and that manner can be derived.

I think you have it here. Generally speaking there are certain effects that can not be predicted and in which case "feel' just might be the best solution.

It is interesting that you have exposed many factors in pool that help us in improving shot making. Many of these things are in fact more feel to those players that have reached an A or better status. Or maybe so automatic because I do change my bridge and length based upon the shot requirements without a second thought or even looking at my bridge.

I also seem to just know how to adjust based on how the table is playing moment to moment.

 

[pete lafond]

You and RandyG do this alot. You guys are well known pool instructors and instead of offering knowledge in these types of subjects, you play dumb and ask beginner questions, as if you are getting a kick out of it. Why do you guys do that all the time? Everyone knows who you are already.

The OB does skid, in fact when you draw the CB it is skidding even though it is spninning backwards. One point that holds true is that side spin does not transfer however top and bottom do. The important point is that the amount of effect is so very small.

Also note that a CB with follow deflects more of the OB and draw will tend to push the OB which is why you have seen shots that block the pocket from the 8 ball allow the 8 ball to follow it going into the pocket. (Please note that if you are playing with a heavier CB, you will allways experience a push.)

 

[jsp]

...One point that holds true is that side spin does not transfer...

You sure about this?

 

[pete lafond]

You sure about this?

I was not clear. This was meant with regards to a full ball contact.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... One point that holds true is that side spin does not transfer ...

This is totally false. There are lots of demonstrations -- you can start with some of Willie Jopling's "twist them in" bank shots. Side spin can be transferred from the cue ball to the object ball. It has a significant effect on bank shots. It is easy to demonstrate.

Or maybe I misunderstood your post.

 

[jsp]

I was not clear. This was meant with regards to a full ball contact.

Still, I think many people would agree that side spin of the CB can be transferred to the OB with a full ball contact. You can change the natural bank angle of the OB by imparting left/right spin on the CB with full ball.

 

[pete lafond]

This is totally false. There are lots of demonstrations -- you can start with some of Willie Jopling's "twist them in" bank shots. Side spin can be transferred from the cue ball to the object ball. It has a significant effect on bank shots. It is easy to demonstrate.

Or maybe I misunderstood your post.

Please review my clearification.

 

[pete lafond]

Still, I think many people would agree that side spin of the CB can be transferred to the OB with a full ball contact. You can change the natural bank angle of the OB by imparting left/right spin on the CB with full ball.

Pay attention to the curve of the CB, most likely it is contact induced spin. You can easily test by hitting a soft ball with spin head on. Use a stripe ball in your test.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... You can change the natural bank angle of the OB by imparting left/right spin on the CB with full ball.

And I just remembered a simple demo of this. Imagine you are playing one pocket. Put a ball on the spot. You are going to bank it to your pocket one cushion off the head rail. Absolutely standard shot at one pocket or bank pool. Now freeze a ball to the head cushion at the natural banking point of the ball. This will be close to the diamond or slightly more than a diamond from the head pocket on your side of the table. Using side spin on the cue ball, you can sitll bank the ball back to your pocket hitting to either side of the frozen object ball on the head rail using firm speed. You can do this with an absolutely full hit on the object ball, leaving the cue ball spinning in place. On some tables you can freeze two balls side-by-side on the head rail and bank on either side of them.

 

[pete lafond]

And I just remembered a simple demo of this. Imagine you are playing one pocket. Put a ball on the spot. You are going to bank it to your pocket one cushion off the head rail. Absolutely standard shot at one pocket or bank pool. Now freeze a ball to the head cushion at the natural banking point of the ball. This will be close to the diamond or slightly more than a diamond from the head pocket on your side of the table. Using side spin on the cue ball, you can sitll bank the ball back to your pocket hitting to either side of the frozen object ball on the head rail using firm speed. You can do this with an absolutely full hit on the object ball, leaving the cue ball spinning in place. On some tables you can freeze two balls side-by-side on the head rail and bank on either side of them.

Banking a ball with english, eg outside, causes the CB to curve which enhances the cut resulting in a wider bank leaving the player the impression that it changed the angle off the rail.

On the rail both contact induced spin to change the rail depature angle and english to cause the CB to avoid double hit are used. In all cases, we use english on the CB to cause a curve and not to transfer the side english.