English?

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I'm in this camp as well. Although I have heard MANY older players (especially in the South) use the term "english" referring to any spin on the CB (including my very good friend Willie Jopling), I have always preferred, as an instructor, to refer to 'english' as sidespin only...if only to differentiate how the CB responds (primarily off of a cushion). Students have a hard enough time understanding spins, and I want to try to make it easier for them. Thus...top and bottom are follow or draw, unless sidespin is used as well. Additionally I prefer to use the terms right and left, as opposed to 'inside' or 'outside' spin (which are easily misunderstood by many players), to refer to sidespin or english. jmo

The tangent line concept, and how top and bottom spin affect it, are clearly demonstrated in our video, "Play Better Pool", Vol. 1.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

The english is any spin vs left or right is a very old argument. I take the side that english is side spin.
 
Makes sense Joey.

I might add though, that I've actually always preferred the whole "inside/outside" terminology, as it puts the shot into a clear context. I mean, follow is always follow and draw is always draw, but left and right tend to mean different things depending on what direction the cut shot is.

I hear you Nathan but I've had more than enough people try to convince me that outside English was inside English and inside English was outside English than I care to remember. It seems a lot easier to explain "hit the cue ball on the left side" than it is to explain "outside" or "inside". Different strokes for different folks I guess. That's what makes the world go 'round.
 
John,

No alphabet soup when I gambled. I played whoever came through the door for what they wanted to play for. I did the same when I traveled. Good enough for me. No idea where you keep coming up with the Robin Hood shee-yit, I can think of one instance I posted about where a friend asked me to get his money back and I did. Even that was in the context of a longer story, a minor part of it. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. A lot of the things you have said about me make little sense including some of your accusations concerning what I have said about you. Seems you have pissing contests with so many people you can't keep your story straight.

Conveniently no one is "alive" who can verify that you ever played.

I reposted my original post and bolded complete thoughts because many people read your spin in later posts in all threads and don't go back and check what was really said. Maybe your claims about the videos were just lies, you do seem to have a willingness to bend the truth. Wholesale fabrication wouldn't be out of the question.[/QUOTE]

You know a lot about fabricating stories. Mine contain specifics that can be verified. Many people who can back up my stories are ALIVE and members of this forum.

However I doubt you are capable of enough original thought to do that. You spend a lot of time bragging about stealing other people's original ideas.

I do? Proof? What were you saying about spin and fabrication? Cite some proof.

You are also proud that you use a sweat shop to produce the cases with your name on them.

Sweat shop? Proof? Kinda going out on a limb here aren't you? Are you feeling a little trapped? Want to be diversionary? Let's see now if I wrap myself in the flag and attack China then people won't notice that I can't back up anything I say. Is that your line of reasoning?

I wonder how many people have bought a case from you that your total input was to sketch a leather design or copy bits and pieces of other people's designs and call them yours then your people making less than $300 a month each do the actual work. I'm guessing at their pay, according to a recent article Honda pays an average of $280 a month to it's workers in their Chinese factory.

You wonder a lot. You also wander a lot. My people make $5 a month and I pay them in rice and fish heads. They are chained to their machines and only get one hour of sunshine a month. But we aren't talking about me here, we are talking about you. Isn't anyone alive who can verify that Hu ever ran a rack at least?

Feel free to correct me if my guess is low, we both know you aren't paying them but a small fraction of what you would have to pay US workers but you surely charge US prices for the work they turn out! If you really want to get personal you have put a lot more of your business on the forum than I have.

Um, yeah, I put my TRUE SELF on this forum. Not made up fantasies of playing that are unverifiable. Let me give you a little geography and economics lesson though - I am not in the USA, the cost of living is much lower here so wages are also lower. This reminds me that you have also posted all sort of stories about your business prowess. Seems like such a great and successful businessman such as yourself would recognize these two basic points.

It's true that the people I played with are dead and gone or I have long ago lost contact with them. I never paid much attention to names because most people gambling weren't using their own anyway.

Very convenient.

I never used more than Hu myself. Other people called me by a bunch of other nicknames, I didn't care as long as it wasn't pool related. I met Keith McCready in Greenway and tried to get together for a match-up that didn't happen, playing even.

Sure sure, that's a good name to pull out the hat. Let's see you claim that you met Ketih "the world gets the seven" McReady and TRIED to match up even and it didn't happen and this is supposed to say what?

First of all if you Keith had tangled then he wouldd have busted you so bad you would have needed to borrow back the H just have half a name.

Secondly this is just the kind of ambigous lie that you tell. You implication is that you were good enough to go toe to toe with Keith even and that he didn't want to play you because of how "good" you say you were.
I wouldn't remember his name had the Color of Money not came out afterwards and I recognized him in it. I think he was using his own name in Greenway but I still wouldn't have remembered it six months later. I'd never connect the Keith of today with the guy I met in Greenway either without the bridge of COM connecting the two.

For a guy who prides himself on being the moral compass of this forum and for being able to keep the story straight your memory is awfully fuzzy concerning your claimed pool playing exploits.

Unlike the people that woof for days and play for a few minutes that you consider the real subculture of pool, the idea for most of us was to get the money and get out without making waves. There were a few showboats like Keith and Fats but there were also a lot of people quietly making a good living without being known. I didn't pass on big bets when they came to me but I didn't look for them, the last thing I wanted was a reputation as a pool player.

Hu

Yep you were one of the great unknowns, the greatest apparently as no one alive can verify your claims.

The best that never was apparently.
 
ALL english is spin- But not all spin is english!!

I agree that the term english should only be correctly used when meaning left and right spin.

Of course follow and draw is also spin (topspin and backspin).

Whenever I am discussing any topic involving spinning the cueball, I ALWAYS clarify my specific usage of the terms "english" "follow" and "draw". I also make it very clear that "english" only applies to sidespin.

It seems some have touched upon some of the reasons, but I would like to clarify a bit.

The most important reason why I feel that it is important to keep "english" separate from "follow" and "draw" is because they are really 2 different animals in a practical sense in application. If you line up a shot with centerbal ( no spin), then adjust to add follow or draw, you will NOT need to adjust your aim. This is NOT true of any side spin! If you confine yourself to the vertical axis of the cueball the cueball will track straight.


When you begin hitting the cueball to the left and right of center on the horizontal axis, you introduce variables THAT ARE NOT PRESENT when using topspin and backspin! If you use a good deal of right english for example, 1 the cueball will deflect ( or squirt) to the left, 2 then because the cuestick is not perfectly level, the cuebal will swerve back to the right( even if just slightly), 3 when the cueball hits the object ball, the OB will be thrown off the line that the contact point suggests. None of these happen when using follow or draw exclusively.

Can you see why these really are 2 completely different animals in practical application as it applies to pool? It is very important to distinguish one from the other when having a discussion about spinning the cueball. I make this distinction VERY clear whenever discussing or introducing someone to the concepts of spinning the cueball.



Also, english WILL NOT change the path the cueball will take off of an object ball ASSUMING THE SAME CONTACT POINT IS STRUCK. If you use english to throw a ball into a pocket ( as opposed to cutting it in) than you are hitting the object ball in a different spot ( for example, a thicker hit and cheating the pocket) and will get a changed cueball path. This altered path is due to hitting a different contact point and is not a result of the spinning cueball.

In a nutshell, follow and draw will change the path of the cueball off of an object ball- english will change the cueball path off of a rail. Another reason why they deserve two distinct catagories in discussing concepts of a spinning cueball. Of course english can be combined with follow and draw.


Jw
 
If the historical precedent is interesting, the place to start is Mike Shamos' "New Illustrated Encyclopedia of Billiards," which gives the definitions and traces the historical usage of over 2000 cue-sport-related terms, including "English" (his preferred capitalization). The first use he has found is in the New York Times in 1873. Anyone who thinks he might want to become a student of the game should get a copy of this book.

1869 Mark Twain: "You would infallibly put the ‘English’ on the wrong side of the ball." (Innocents Abroad)
 
I just thumbed through a few books and Phil Capelle, Robert Byrne, Ray Martin as well as the BCA rulebook all define english as sidespin only. I would say these are pretty well respected authorities in the modern age of pool and it is what I base my opinion on. But, it seems there are clearly two sides in this issue, and people can call it what they want, so I think everyone must be as clear as possible when describing the spins we put on a cueball, especially when we are teaching those new to the game. Also, follow, top, or high, is not "spin". If you watch Dr. Dave's video, you'll see that the top "spin" imparted to a cueball is lost almost immediately after it leaves the cue tip.
 
It is pointless to argue whether one or the other has historical precedent. Usage in the US (which is not the entire English-speaking world) varies. In Byrne's "New Standard Book of Pool and Billiards," he states, "In this book 'English' means side spin and side spin only." That statement serves two purposes. It clarifies how he is using the word and it implicitly acknowledges that others may use the term in other ways.

I was going to make the same point. My copy of Byrne's Standard Book of Pool and Billiards is an older copy, copyright 1987, and he made the same declaration back then.

The usage of any word or term only means something when there is an accepted definition for it. Historical precedent is interesting research, but means little when using any term in a modern context. So, it boils down to what is the current most widely accepted definition of the term English (when used in reference to pool and billiards). Does it mean any spin, or does it mean spin only about the vertical axis? I believe most modern pool literature uses the later.

It might even be said that due to the popularity of Robert Byrne's book and his usage of the term, he helped solidify the definition in modern culture.
 
On the other side of the pond the English even have the endearing term "deep screw" to refer to very low backspin.

Didn't we have a thread about a year or so ago about an APA3 who got BCA certification as an instructor?

Now I am the last person who thinks that a person has to be able to DO what he is teaching in order to instruct and we certainly have had THAT discussion many times here. I think that it might be wise if the BCA made it a requirement that regular instructors not be allowed to do videos teaching pool. Perhaps it's better if these inexperienced teachers would learn their craft a little better and get an advanced certification before making themselves into YouTube stars. My thinking here is that they don't necessarily know HOW to teach yet and probably should not be trying to put out content to be consumed by beginners who might actually be harmed by the bite chunks of concepts when they really need personal instruction.

I am certain that this particular instructor was well meaning but I find his content to be inaccurate or if not entirely inaccurate then not inclusive or explanatory enough for the intended audience.

Thus the reason for the moratorium on allowing rookie instructors to make videos.

Or not. It's a new world and anyone with a camera can be a star without having to answer to anyone else for the content they put up. (within some parameters of course.)


Man, that seems pretty harsh. Anyone in the world can post a pool video, but not an instructor? And what did the guy do wrong, aside from having a different definition of english from yours? Sanction a guy who loves the game enough to take the instructors course, just because you dont agree with his terminology? I dont get that. You even said his concepts were correct.

I'm looking in The New Illustrated Encyclopedia of Billiards, by Mike Shamos. Under English, the first thing it says is "Spin or twist applied to the cue ball by striking it off center." Yadda yadda.... the Brits refer to this as side. Last line: In American usage, "English" encompasses draw and follow as well as side.

So the instructor is not wrong, he is using the British definition. Personally, I like the british concept better. I find it alot easier to explain what english is, when you have something to compare it to(the vertical axis). Also a good way to stay away from explaining deflection and swerve until a student is ready.
 
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I will go on record as saying that I agree that the majority usage of "english" refers to left or right. I have always felt otherwise and tried anyway to just use the word spin instead of english.

So thank you AZ community for clearing this up and the instructor is validated even if I still feel that the instruction is confusing to beginners and could have been done better if english were not a part of our pool vocabulary.

Adios.
 
Man, that seems pretty harsh. Anyone in the world can post a pool video, but not an instructor? And what did the guy do wrong, aside from having a different definition of english from yours? Sanction a guy who loves the game enough to take the instructors course, just because you dont agree with his terminology? I dont get that. You even said his concepts were correct.

I'm looking in The New Illustrated Encyclopedia of Billiards, by Mike Shamos. Under English, the first thing it says is "Spin or twist applied to the cue ball by striking it off center." Yadda yadda.... the Brits refer to this as side. Last line: In American usage, "English" encompasses draw and follow as well as side.

So the instructor is not wrong, he is using the British definition. Personally, I like the british concept better. I find it alot easier to explain what english is, when you have something to compare it to (the vertical axis). Also a good way to stay away from explaining deflection and swerve until a student is ready.
Agreed. "English" generally refers just to side spin. But phrases like "top-left English" are also common. I wish people (including me) would simply use "side-spin" instead of "english" (or "English," which is quite common, but grammatically awkward). "Right spin" and "top-left spin" are much clearer and won't cause grammar or "interpretation" arguments. Unfortunately, "English" is already too ingrained in the pool culture, and too many people (including me) will continue to use it.

I also like "American" (e.g., don't put too much "American" on the ball ... i.e., don't hit it too hard).

Regards,
Dave
 
It's really called "duckbutter" or "muckinpucky" or sometimes even "dewey".

Well, I don't think that the term ,"Dewey," is used for top or bottom
(draw) spin. That's strictly, "Right Dewey," or , "left Dewey."

For spin along the horizontal axis I'm sure the correct terminology is,
Top Duckbutter," or, " Bottom Duckbutter." At least that's what I hear the Filipinos calling it all the time. Lemme get a translation. Yes, I was correct .
The word for top or bottom spin is ,"pato mantikilya." For draw the just add the word Double yielding :" Double pato mantikilya."
 
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John, I would be interested in viewing that video. What is the address????...randyg

Randy, I am pretty sure it is one of my videos on Youtube. I would copy and paste the link for you, but I would have to go and find it amongst 80 different videos that I have there. Besides, I don't think it would serve any good purpose now.

Roger
 
Well, boy you sure have your nerve Roger...posting real information on You-Tube! It's supposed to be reserved for million-ball runs, and triple-tango-reverse jumbo masse' shots! :eek: :D J/K...keep on posting. Hope to see you in Vegas for the trade show.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Randy, I am pretty sure it is one of my videos on Youtube. I would copy and paste the link for you, but I would have to go and find it amongst 80 different videos that I have there. Besides, I don't think it would serve any good purpose now.

Roger
 
I heard a pro golfer on tv the other day use the term putting "english" on the ball but for the life of me I could not find it it any golf terminology glossary.
Maybe he plays pool as well :)
 
Randy, I am pretty sure it is one of my videos on Youtube. I would copy and paste the link for you, but I would have to go and find it amongst 80 different videos that I have there. Besides, I don't think it would serve any good purpose now.

Roger

Roger, I appreciate the time you take to help out with all your articles, in publications like the The Break, Youtube Video's, and here on the forum. I would personally hope that you do not tire of the all nonsense that gets thrown your direction and stop doing all the things you do. You are always respectful and I have not seen you to date act out in manner that was negative to your readers or the concepts of what you are trying help the general public with.

Thanks for what you do Roger, staying out of this entire mess certainly says volumes for your charactor and it should be another lesson others can learn from if they would open their eyes.

Very Respectfully

Craig W. Rittel
 
I'll second the motion Craig. Its guys like Roger and Dr. Dave that put in unreal amounts of time to help us out and make the pool world a better place to learn.
 
I'll second the motion Craig. Its guys like Roger and Dr. Dave that put in unreal amounts of time to help us out and make the pool world a better place to learn.


I totally agree nit picking is not something we want to do with valued members, I mean if you do not understand why some one published some comments send them a PM and ask them, people make mistakes and if wrong I am certain it would be corrected.

Especially when the entire content of the information is designed to help those who are tyring to understand and improve themselves. Lets face it terms in the pool world are very standardized, in fact in many cases they are unclear.

I hope others see the value of these gentleman who tirelessly devote their time to teaching us all this sport with little to gain other than the satisfaction of knowing that they have helped others.:smile:

Again I would like to thank those who take the time to help my hat is off to you all.

JIMO
 
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Roger, I appreciate the time you take to help out with all your articles, in publications like the The Break, Youtube Video's, and here on the forum. I would personally hope that you do not tire of the all nonsense that gets thrown your direction and stop doing all the things you do. You are always respectful and I have not seen you to date act out in manner that was negative to your readers or the concepts of what you are trying help the general public with.

Thanks for what you do Roger, staying out of this entire mess certainly says volumes for your charactor and it should be another lesson others can learn from if they would open their eyes.

Very Respectfully

Craig W. Rittel

Great post Craig!
 
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