Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.

I'm curious Greg: how low do you get in your stance? I would expect guys with "old-school" upright stances to more commonly look at CB last, since they wouldn't really see the CB if looking at an OB in the distance.


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Looking at the object ball last has made a world of difference in my game. It took me lots of practice to get the old habits gone and sometimes they sneak back in, but I know when they come back because I miss. My eyes used to dance all over the place and it would throw my stroke off, but now it's solid.
 
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Allen...Should be OB last, except on the break, a kick, a jump or masse'. We went over why. :grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Looking at the cue ball last has made a world of difference in my game. It took me lots of practice to get the old habits gone and sometimes they sneak back in, but I know when they come back because I miss. My eyes used to dance all over the place and it would throw my stroke off, but now it's solid.
 
Louie Roberts and Shane Van Boening....

At Terry Stonier's 1976 Budweiser Open 9 Ball Tournament in Sacramento I watched the best players and what they did, including eye movement. What I observed while watching Louie Roberts was not only did he look at the cue ball last but how long he looked at the object ball before shooting. Some of you out there might remember this aspect of his aiming routine. Recently, I observed the same in Shane Van Boening while he played Corey Deuel in an after hours match up at Hard Times in Sacramento. Both Shane and Louie looked at the object ball for a long time before pulling the trigger. These are just my observations. Anybody watch Shane recently and what he does with his eyes before shooting? Let us know what you observed.
 
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Sorry if this has been said before, but if your shotmaking improves that much from looking at the cue ball last, then I think there is something wrong with your fundamentals. You are probably missing your target on the cue ball when you are looking at the object ball last. Fix that and you won't have to look at the cue ball.
 
Sorry if this has been said before, but if your shotmaking improves that much from looking at the cue ball last, then I think there is something wrong with your fundamentals. You are probably missing your target on the cue ball when you are looking at the object ball last. Fix that and you won't have to look at the cue ball.
Dan your post sounds condescending. As to my fundamentals.....well they are just fine, thank you. Last Wednesday I played in what I expected to be a B tournament(It started as a B tournament that was opened to all due to lack of players). I had worked the last 3 hours of the day tightening bolts overhead with a 2lb spud wrench in each hand. After work I started drinking beer. I told my wife, "lets go to the tournament and I will play left handed, as my arms are putty anyway." Well we got there and there was one CSI bar table champion and two other players better than me along with 3 that play my speed. With arms of putty and muscles that were only kept from twitching by copious quantities of beer I managed a split for first. I can only attribute that to sound fundamentals.
I played for 38 years looking at the object ball last and achieved some degree of success. I did win the Seniors division of the Western BCA 9 ball in Lincoln City, Oregon in October 2012, looking at the object ball last. I started what was an experiment in Jan 2013, looking at the cue ball as the cue tip contacts it.
I do not "have" to look at the cue ball last, I choose to because it works better for me. It also worked for Willie Hoppe. He was selected as Billiards Digest's player of the century. I have been told that Rodney Morris admits to looking at the cue ball last as well. I have just posted a link to a youtube video that shows that at least on some shots Ronnie O'Sullivan will look at the cue ball as he is striking it.
Thank you for your input but I do not see or feel a need to "fix" anything at this time.:grin:
 
Sorry if this has been said before, but if your shotmaking improves that much from looking at the cue ball last, then I think there is something wrong with your fundamentals. You are probably missing your target on the cue ball when you are looking at the object ball last. Fix that and you won't have to look at the cue ball.

Part of me agrees with what you say, Dan. Learn to trust your stroke, and you wont feel the need to look at your cue ball last.

That's how I shoot, but I know others have been successful using less popular methods. Some techniques may not be considered fundamentally correct, yet remain effective for many players. We see this with tight grips, upright stances, wrist movement, different eye patterns, head positions, etc. Even sidearm strokes have been developed to perform well.
 
Dan your post sounds condescending. As to my fundamentals.....well they are just fine, thank you. Last Wednesday I played in what I expected to be a B tournament(It started as a B tournament that was opened to all due to lack of players). I had worked the last 3 hours of the day tightening bolts overhead with a 2lb spud wrench in each hand. After work I started drinking beer. I told my wife, "lets go to the tournament and I will play left handed, as my arms are putty anyway." Well we got there and there was one CSI bar table champion and two other players better than me along with 3 that play my speed. With arms of putty and muscles that were only kept from twitching by copious quantities of beer I managed a split for first. I can only attribute that to sound fundamentals.
I played for 38 years looking at the object ball last and achieved some degree of success. I did win the Seniors division of the Western BCA 9 ball in Lincoln City, Oregon in October 2012, looking at the object ball last. I started what was an experiment in Jan 2013, looking at the cue ball as the cue tip contacts it.
I do not "have" to look at the cue ball last, I choose to because it works better for me. It also worked for Willie Hoppe. He was selected as Billiards Digest's player of the century. I have been told that Rodney Morris admits to looking at the cue ball last as well. I have just posted a link to a youtube video that shows that at least on some shots Ronnie O'Sullivan will look at the cue ball as he is striking it.
Thank you for your input but I do not see or feel a need to "fix" anything at this time.:grin:

Greg -- Do you incorporate "quiet eyes" into your CB-last eye pattern at all? If so, how -- are you "quiet" on the OB and then switch back briefly to the CB before the hit, or are you "quiet" on the CB before the stroke, or something else?
 
Greg -- Do you incorporate "quiet eyes" into your CB-last eye pattern at all? If so, how -- are you "quiet" on the OB and then switch back briefly to the CB before the hit, or are you "quiet" on the CB before the stroke, or something else?

While I have heard the term "quiet eyes", I am not sure I know what it means.:wink: OK, just educated myself.'Quiet Eye' helps elite athletes

What is working for me is more of a factor of my entire preshot routine and sighting along with 'quiet eye' on the cue ball at contact and through. I aim the object ball while standing squarely at address. I was taught to line up the shot using my belly button. I think Jerry Briesath teaches a similar way, he describes putting the chin on the line and keeping it there. From address I stride with my left foot forward and my right foot slightly back. Putting my cue on the line of sight as if I were going to shoot the shot one handed. This has my right hand slightly behind the balance point of the cue and at my finish position of my normal stroke. This is against my pectoral muscle or very close. This is my second stage of aiming. Until now my eyes have been on the object ball. At this point I look at the line of my cue and confirm that it is on the line of the shot. From there I look at the cue ball until my bridege is set. Then I slide my right hand back to perpendicular at address and take my practice stroke looking at the cue ball and when the stroke stops I follow the line it creates and confirm that it will take the cue ball to the point of aim on the object ball(look at the object ball). I normally stroke twice. If all is good I draw my cue back looking at the cue ball and pause(the timing). I draw my dominant left eye to the exact point I am striking on the cue ball(the precision of focus part) and watch as the cue contacts it and my vision stays with the cue ball until contact with the object ball. I am focused on the contact point and the line the cue tip should take through the cue ball.

Thank you for bringing the 'Quiet eyes' to my attention. I am going to throw in a quote from the link I included, as I found it very interesting.

[quote='Quiet Eye' helps elite athletes
By Julie Clothier for CNN]The first is the optimal location of the eyes' focus in space. For example, the best place on which to focus in golf is the back of the ball, while in basketball it is the front of the hoop.

"The precision of the quiet eye location often mirrors the precision required to perform well in a sport. In golf, precision of movement and precision of focus are paramount," says Vickers.

The second is the when the eyes begin to focus. The timing of focus is crucial, says Vickers, and varies depending on the sport.

The third is when the players' gaze leaves the "optimal location."

"In golf putting, for example, it has to stay on the back of the ball through the stroke and dwell for 200 or 300m on the green, after contact. Most golfers do not do this consistently," says Vickers.

The final quality is the duration of the quiet eye's period.

"It's about their ability to maintain a single focus even as all the motor activity is going on," she says.

"The top athletes that I work with have wonderful physical attributes but what some of them lack is visual focus and concentration," she says.[/quote]

In closing it would seem that my method would relate to the golf putting she describes while object ball last could relate to the basketball shooting.
1. I find my optimal location to be the cue ball.
2. The timing of my focus is the pause at the back of the stroke.
3. My gaze stays with the cue ball until contact with the object ball.
The final quality of duration is indeed the thing that I am constantly trying to improve.
 
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In a nutshell, Greg, if it works for you great. It still is not an ideal way to shoot, or an ideal way to teach folks. Even if you play very sporty. To me, it's like shooting in the dark, or like in the COM, watching Vince turn away as he shoots the money ball.

Well, most of us can do that, and it's a fun thing to do playing with pool newbies cause it looks more difficult than it is... and they can't do it. But, would I want to shoot every shot like that? Nope.

Albert Belle was a terrific baseball hitter... a beast. But nobody would teach their kids, or even college players to "hit" like him. His mechanics defied logic, his hands came forward on the pitch, and then they went back, against everything baseball players are taught. From Day 1, it is KEEP YOUR HANDS BACK. But it worked for him. He made over $100M during his 10 year career.

Keith has the weird sideways stroke, and nobody would ever teach something like that, but it worked for him... I'm sure he was not the only kid to small to shoot at the table that had that funky stroke, but they never became as good as him.

So, the bottom line is, it's not a very wise decision not to look at what you are shooting. The cue tip is so close to the cb already, you don't need to look at it, and your practice strokes got your point of aim on the cb verified, so there is really no logical reason to look at the cb last. In fact, even if you want to, you couldn't change the contact point on the cb with your tip during the stroke without messing up awfully, so why stare at it.

On the other hand, your hands follow your eyes. That is a fact, not a theory. When driving and watching the pretty girls jog on the sidewalks , and if you glance over too long, you begin to veer in the direction of the girls, subconsciously.

Thus, looking at the cb allows your mind to continue on the same path. It knows what you want and will help you get there. Personally, I don't think enough folks give the OB enough "time" before shooting... you need to really ZONE in on your spot.
 
My daughter just improved her game recently.
Her claim is , she focuses on the cue ball and where she is going to hit it during the strike.
 
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In a nutshell, Greg, if it works for you great. It still is not an ideal way to shoot, or an ideal way to teach folks. Even if you play very sporty. Snip....

It was Willie Hoppe that teaches;
From page 25 of Billiards as it should be played by Willie Hoppe:

AIMING
Select the spots on the object and cue balls you wish to hit. Then concentrate on this line of aim---watch tip of cue in preliminary strokes to see that your tip is going to the same spot. Your eye and hand should act in strict unison.

A glance should go from the cue ball to the object ball, back to the cue ball, and rest there---so you must be looking at the cue ball rather than the object ball before delivering your stroke.

The argument has often arisen whether or not a player's last glance before striking the cue ball is on the cue or object ball. My eyes are last on the cue ball.

However, several of my fellow pros often have wanted to bet me that I was wrong. Be that as it may, it doesn't mean a thing to better play. Both methods are satisfactory. Anyway you will do this automatically and unconsciously.
Keith has the weird sideways stroke, and nobody would ever teach something like that, but it worked for him... I'm sure he was not the only kid to small to shoot at the table that had that funky stroke, but they never became as good as him.
Willie Hoppe was also known to have a side arm stroke attributed to starting at such a young age, along with Jake Schaefer and Willie Mosconi!
From Author's Forward of Billiards As It Should Be Played

Through the explanations, photographs and diagrams in this book, I show you what I know you should know and practice in order to enable you to develop your own game to its greatest possibilities. As you apply these instructions, remember that there is no standard form in any sport---only by experiment will you develop your own distinctive style. Determine your best form as quickly as possible and concentrate on that until you are "in the groove." and then, but not before, begin to think about the balls and your score.
 
It was Willie Hoppe that teaches;


Willie Hoppe was also known to have a side arm stroke attributed to starting at such a young age, along with Jake Schaefer and Willie Mosconi!

Well, you are making my point for me.. read his last line ;)
However, several of my fellow pros often have wanted to bet me that I was wrong. Be that as it may, it doesn't mean a thing to better play. Both methods are satisfactory. Anyway you will do this automatically and unconsciously.

But what he is saying if it works for you... for MOST on the planet, it will not.

And yes, so there were 3 folks with a sidearm stroke who actually turned out pretty good... not very good odds in the hundreds of millions that have played pool the last 100 years.
 
... On the other hand, your hands follow your eyes. ...

And that could be a disadvantage to OB-last shooting. Many people say they are looking at the intended contact point on the OB when they shoot. Well, if the hand follows the eyes straight toward that contact point -- rather than down the needed shot line that is to the side of the intended contact point -- then the shot will be undercut (except on straight shots).

- just one possible difficulty to overcome with OB last -
 
And that could be a disadvantage to OB-last shooting. Many people say they are looking at the intended contact point on the OB when they shoot. Well, if the hand follows the eyes straight toward that contact point -- rather than down the needed shot line that is to the side of the intended contact point -- then the shot will be undercut (except on straight shots).

- just one possible difficulty to overcome with OB last -

No, because your stroke in moving in the same direction as your eyes (of course, assuming you line up your shot correctly with your eyes)

Once you have done your practice stokes, your shooting stroke is going to mirror it, and now looking at the ob, you are subconsciously telling the brain where you hands need to go...forward, in the same path as the ob.

If it didn't work, there would be a lot less World Champions, since almost ALL of them shoot this way. Again, there are exceptions to anything, but to start behind the "8ball" is not a very good place to start for a new pool player or change one that is shooting good now imho.

I'm sure Keith swears by his stroke, but man, no way anyone on the planet would "teach" that to anyone. He overcame a great obstacle to still play at the top of the heap... kudos to him, but please, don't try that at home kids :)
 
And that could be a disadvantage to OB-last shooting. Many people say they are looking at the intended contact point on the OB when they shoot. Well, if the hand follows the eyes straight toward that contact point -- rather than down the needed shot line that is to the side of the intended contact point -- then the shot will be undercut (except on straight shots).

- just one possible difficulty to overcome with OB last -

This is the reason I look to where I want the CB to go. My stroke is going where I am looking. On high angle cut shot the contact point is way offset from th CB direction of travel, but with contact patch, spot on the table, it is on the CB direction of travel.

One thing that is not mentioned a lot is peripheral vision and it's use in shoot making. Meaning a person can see where the contact point is on the OB without having to be looking directly at that point.

Now, my stroke going to where the CB goes only works for vertical center line hit with the cue on the CB. Once I starting use side spin, my cue is not going toward where the CB goes but off to on side. This is also why I look to where I want to CB to go so the the cue moving in a different direction than I'm looking does not interfer with my shoot picture.
 
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