Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.

"aware" of the object ball, and focused on the cue ball.

fathomblue said:
I've always looked at the CB last. And I find that if I'm able to get my body in the most correct shot alignment possible....and focus on a tiny pinpoint location on the CB, I shoot my absolute best.

Honestly, until I joined AZ, I didn't know that there was any other way.
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The cue ball is the target, we've not hitting the object ball directly, we're hitting the cue ball directly. Trying to focus our eyes back and forth is not a very good idea, I've always just been "aware" of the object ball, and focused on the cue ball.

I do have to look at the object ball before the cue ball hits it so I can follow the object ball into the pocket to see where the connect. This is the most important aspect and often "overlooked". 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
cleary said:
While editing this Shane instructional series I saw this thread. I went through some footage frame by frame and it appears he looks at the cueball last and his eyes shift to the object ball very quickly after contact.
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OMG, cleary... first to quote Shane "what is a ghost ball?"... now this! with possible video evidence ... you need to warn folks about reading stuff like this... AZ does have older members and statements like this ... well its just not safe... ;)
 
nb92 said:
OMG, cleary... first to quote Shane "what is a ghost ball?"... now this! with possible video evidence ... you need to warn folks about reading stuff like this... AZ does have older members and statements like this ... well its just not safe... ;)
Click to expand...

Yea, we didn't really cover too much about eye patterns in the filming, he just says he goes back and forth but he didn't really say what he looks at last. I checked to HD shots that were pretty close, straight on shots. Two frames after cueball contact, his eyes shift to the object ball.

I'm too busy finishing the aiming video to post anything, but sometime I might post a clip.
 
I have not yet read all the replies but this is something I have struggled with quite a bit. I have tried both methods and came to this conclusion so far. Basically you are trying to hit two bullseyes with one shot. First, hitting exactly where you want on the cue ball, then hitting the object ball or rail exactly where you want. Not an easy task to preform perfectly.

I have ended up doing both. On shots where the object ball is close to the cue ball (within three feet ) I prefer to look at the CB last but on the longer shots I mostly focus on the CB but at the last second I shift my gaze to the object ball. On break shots I prefer to look at the cue ball last.

All of this is a work in progress for me. I am constantly looking to tweak things to get a better result and in a year my answer may be different. But for now, this is what is working for me.
 
Cdryden said:
I have not yet read all the replies but this is something I have struggled with quite a bit. I have tried both methods and came to this conclusion so far. Basically you are trying to hit two bullseyes with one shot. First, hitting exactly where you want on the cue ball, then hitting the object ball or rail exactly where you want. Not an easy task to preform perfectly.

I have ended up doing both. On shots where the object ball is close to the cue ball (within three feet ) I prefer to look at the CB last but on the longer shots I mostly focus on the CB but at the last second I shift my gaze to the object ball. On break shots I prefer to look at the cue ball last.

All of this is a work in progress for me. I am constantly looking to tweak things to get a better result and in a year my answer may be different. But for now, this is what is working for me.
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I've heard some pros say they look at OB last, some pros say cueball last. I dont think there is a right or wrong... peoples brains are different and work different. Do what works for you.
 
So I have some recent thoughts on this.

Personal Eye Pattern was something I was supposed to work on from my lesson with Scott Lee. I didn’t work on to the point of having it be second nature but understood that I looked at the OB last. I spend most of my time focusing on the CB and then during the final slow backswing I change to OB, usually. I left this alone because…

There were other issues with my fundamentals (grip pressure, bridge, and approach). I have since worked on them and they have improved greatly. Back to eye pattern. There is still too much inconsistency for my liking in my game. The last 2 times I played I played pretty rough the first hour or so and then hit a much higher gear. The difference was, without question, being hyper sensitive to my eye pattern (OB last) and more importantly the “TYPE” of focus I used.

My point is (and perhaps question for everyone else) is that eye pattern is one thing but if you do not impart the right type of focus (for me I describe it as intense laser like focus yet relaxed) the eye pattern is helpful only to a point. There was such difference when I became hyper sensitive to where I was looking and how I was looking. I need to go back now and re-do the mother drills for PEP and get into a habit of calling on that focus.
 
Top players respect different methods.

cleary said:
I've heard some pros say they look at OB last, some pros say cueball last. I dont think there is a right or wrong... peoples brains are different and work different. Do what works for you.
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I have noticed that the players I respect the most do not speak in absolutes and allow that others can achieve succes using different techniques. They speak in terms of what works for them.

In Podcast #21 with Shane Van Boening and Johnny Archer at the 40:00 mark Johnny coments on how many aiming systems there are "That Work".
 
Try the Blind Test

Before you take the time to attempt any change in your OB/CB eyeball routine, try this exercise on the practice table.

1. Set up any shot that is at the within your Comfort Zone - that is, you can put it in with CB control 4 out of 5 times.

2. Just before you make the shot, close your eyes - and shoot.

3. Open eyes after a slow count of 2 (ah-1 and ah-2).

4. Check the results against your expectation (OB pocketed, and CB at intended location).

Making the stroke with your eyes closed provides the same results you will get if you look at the CB last.

If post shot results meet the pre-shot plan (4 in 5) - you don't need to change your routine. Go work on some other part of your game.

If not, then you are committing one or more sins. For example:
- no plan going into the shot (need to think before you shoot)
- no firm picture of desired results (know what you want before you get down)
- no confidence in your muscle memory (goes away after a few hundred blind strokes)
- stroke is not straight (fundamentals are off - may need professional help)
- no control of your stroke speed (do a lot of cross-side and long table lags)
- no consistent precision on the CB/tip contact (use the no-hands drill)

If you don't know which sins being committed against true stick control, you need an outside view.

The cheapest is a video recorder of some type. First, set up the angle looking straight down the line, at table height. Capture the full length of the cue. Record a couple dozen strokes. Repeat with the shooting angle off to your stick side. Use slow motion analysis to help identify exactly what needs to be fixed.

If you can't identify why your results aren't consistent, have an instructor analyze the video (or take a lesson). He/she should be able to provide a trick or an exercise to force a corrected routine onto your muscle memory.

After you fix the Blind Test sins, come back to the CB/OB visual choice. When your game is going well, don't change your routine. But when you are shooting less well than expected, look at the CB last.
 
Haven't read through this entire thread but what I always thought would be "ideal" is this.

Get a general line/idea for what you want the shot to do from above.

Get down on the shot and get aligned with whatever english you want and where you want to aim. During this point you need to look at both CB and OB, doesn't matter what order but make sure you really look at the spot you are gonna hit the CB and factor in the spin/deflection/etc etc.

Start your practice strokes, look at cue ball during forward strokes, object ball during back. Then take one final good look at the CB(i usually pause a second here) then final backstroke and shot while looking at the OB. Stay down to see whether you made it or missed it so your brain can make the connection from between what your eyes see to what your muscles did in order to develop your muscle memory.
 
I've seen players win major championships that I know for sure had less than 20/20

allanpsand said:
Before you take the time to attempt any change in your OB/CB eyeball routine, try this exercise on the practice table.

1. Set up any shot that is at the within your Comfort Zone - that is, you can put it in with CB control 4 out of 5 times.

2. Just before you make the shot, close your eyes - and shoot.

3. Open eyes after a slow count of 2 (ah-1 and ah-2).

4. Check the results against your expectation (OB pocketed, and CB at intended location).

Making the stroke with your eyes closed provides the same results you will get if you look at the CB last.

If post shot results meet the pre-shot plan (4 in 5) - you don't need to change your routine. Go work on some other part of your game.

If not, then you are committing one or more sins. For example:
- no plan going into the shot (need to think before you shoot)
- no firm picture of desired results (know what you want before you get down)
- no confidence in your muscle memory (goes away after a few hundred blind strokes)
- stroke is not straight (fundamentals are off - may need professional help)
- no control of your stroke speed (do a lot of cross-side and long table lags)
- no consistent precision on the CB/tip contact (use the no-hands drill)

If you don't know which sins being committed against true stick control, you need an outside view.

The cheapest is a video recorder of some type. First, set up the angle looking straight down the line, at table height. Capture the full length of the cue. Record a couple dozen strokes. Repeat with the shooting angle off to your stick side. Use slow motion analysis to help identify exactly what needs to be fixed.

If you can't identify why your results aren't consistent, have an instructor analyze the video (or take a lesson). He/she should be able to provide a trick or an exercise to force a corrected routine onto your muscle memory.

After you fix the Blind Test sins, come back to the CB/OB visual choice. When your game is going well, don't change your routine. But when you are shooting less well than expected, look at the CB last.
Click to expand...

This would be fine if pool was strictly a visual game, however, it's not, feel, and touch are vitally important to top level performance.

If you don't look at the object ball BEFORE the cue ball contacts it you are robbing yourself of FEELING the contact between the cue ball and object ball. This is what gives us the "feel for the pocket" that pros talk about and I personally think is essential to world class ball pocketing.

The game of pool at the highest levels is about connection, this is how a great player creates the angles. The greatest players don't have to have the greatest eye sight, as a matter of fact I've witnessed players win major championships that I know for sure had less than 20/20 vision.

Not only would I advise looking at the object ball before the cue ball contacts it, I'd also suggest watching the object ball go in the pocket after contact...NOT the cue ball.
 
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A few facts, a few thoughts

Fact: When I had shortstops and "A" players that looked at the object ball last hit the cue ball in a certain place to make a moderately tough shot and get shape not one of them hit the cue ball where they thought they did. When I put bangers that looked at the cue ball last to the same test every one of them hit the cue ball exactly where they were trying to. Speculation: There might be less "feel" and adjustment if you just hit the cue ball where you thought you did to begin with.

Another fact confirmed by video, many of the players that will say they look at the object ball last shift their eyes to the cue ball as the stick starts forward. Watch pro video for yourself. I did four or five years ago. Look at matches from then and some of the top players if you are curious.

When I was shooting well it didn't matter where I looked. I might look at a spot between the cue ball and object ball, I might look at a spot behind the object ball, I might let my eyes drift to a thousand yard stare and look at nothing. Doesn't matter once you are in line.

Now for a few thoughts. Everyone that shoots a pistol with iron sights knows the front sight is the heart of the aiming system. The target can be a blur, the back sight a blur, front sight sharp and in focus and you will see enough of the rear sight and target to get the job done. I would say the tip or the cue ball correspond most closely the front sight.

I played around with the cue ball last and object ball last a few weeks each back when it was being hotly debated years ago. Either works, and I don't see that much difference between the two. If I had to argue one or the other I would give cue ball last the nod. Just to stir the poop, my best percentage is probably when I commit to the shot and look at neither one!

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
Snip.....
Another fact confirmed by video, many of the players that will say they look at the object ball last shift their eyes to the cue ball as the stick starts forward.
Snip...
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Just found a great close in shot of Efren form 1999 where you see him do just that.
Watch at 37:55

This fits perfectly with what CJ stated in the aiming forum.

Originally Posted by CJ Wiley View Post
I've played Efren many times and we do many things very similar (as far as striking the cue ball). He DEFINITELY looks at the cue ball and he told a friend of mine that he looks at it last.

I made this statement in an earlier post:
I just watched this youtube video.
Efren Reyes: 9-Rack 9-Ball Run
There are two places that you can clearly see Efren's eyes as he is shooting. At 6:30 and again at 45:00 you get a close view of his eyes. In both instanses he apears to look at the object ball as he starts his stroke.

Those shots show the start of his stroke. This latest clip shows his eyes shifting down after his stroke starts forward.
 
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The cue ball is the target

gregcantrall said:
Just found a great close in shot of Efren form 1999 where you see him do just that.
Watch at 37:55

This fits perfectly with what CJ stated in the aiming forum.

Originally Posted by CJ Wiley View Post
I've played Efren many times and we do many things very similar (as far as striking the cue ball). He DEFINITELY looks at the cue ball and he told a friend of mine that he looks at it last.

I made this statement in an earlier post:
I just watched this youtube video.
Efren Reyes: 9-Rack 9-Ball Run
There are two places that you can clearly see Efren's eyes as he is shooting. At 6:30 and again at 45:00 you get a close view of his eyes. In both instanses he apears to look at the object ball as he starts his stroke.

Those shots show the start of his stroke. This latest clip shows his eyes shifting down after his stroke starts forward.
Click to expand...

The cue ball is the target, no matter how you "slice it". ;) 'The Game Teaches'
 
gregcantrall said:
Just found a great close in shot of Efren form 1999 where you see him do just that.
Watch at 37:55

This fits perfectly with what CJ stated in the aiming forum.

Originally Posted by CJ Wiley View Post
I've played Efren many times and we do many things very similar (as far as striking the cue ball). He DEFINITELY looks at the cue ball and he told a friend of mine that he looks at it last.

I made this statement in an earlier post:
I just watched this youtube video.
Efren Reyes: 9-Rack 9-Ball Run
There are two places that you can clearly see Efren's eyes as he is shooting. At 6:30 and again at 45:00 you get a close view of his eyes. In both instanses he apears to look at the object ball as he starts his stroke.

Those shots show the start of his stroke. This latest clip shows his eyes shifting down after his stroke starts forward.
Click to expand...

It looks to me like Reyes is looking at the object ball last in all three clips. His eyes shift very slightly relative to his head position in the clip you call the latest clip because his head starts coming up.
 
PoolBum said:
It looks to me like Reyes is looking at the object ball last in all three clips. His eyes shift very slightly relative to his head position in the clip you call the latest clip because his head starts coming up.
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I slowed the video to 1/4 speed, I see his eyes up on the back stroke then down on the forward stroke, then up on the back stroke and then dropping just after he starts going forward on the final stroke.
It is a quick clip but the best I have seen showing his eyes as he strokes.
 
Mr. Greg,

I have always been an object ball last guy. Since using CJ's TOI I have been looking at the cue ball during the stroke more & more. In fact once I went to aligning to just the center & edge of the OB I'm looking at the CB almost always.

I think how one 'aims' can dictate what is either better or more natural for that method.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
CJ Wiley said:
The cue ball is the target, no matter how you "slice it". ;) 'The Game Teaches'
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Okie said:
Where do you teach that the eyes should be focused at the time the tip strikes the cue ball?

Thanks,

Ken
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Inquiring minds want to know CJ! The cue ball is the target. Are you teaching to look at the target or the object ball when the tip strikes the cue ball. Or is it something less specific?

I am of the belief that there is not right answer which fits everyone. I am just curious about your opinion on the subject. It will not be held against you in a court of law sir. ;)

Ken
 
Okie said:
Inquiring minds want to know CJ! The cue ball is the target. Are you teaching to look at the target or the object ball when the tip strikes the cue ball. Or is it something less specific?

I am of the belief that there is not right answer which fits everyone. I am just curious about your opinion on the subject. It will not be held against you in a court of law sir. ;)

Ken
Click to expand...

See post #80 in this thread.
 
CJ Wiley said:
Basically simultaneously...you go from primary focus cue ball to primary focus object ball.....and this MUST be done subconsciously. DO NOT try to think about this, just connect to the shot and allow it to happen. Any other way can be dangerous and I know a few pros that got really messed up trying to tinker with this. "The Game, Allow it to Teach'
Click to expand...

AtLarge, I remembered this post. I didn't get it then and I don't get it now.

Ken
 
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