Regardless of what you look at last, if you have any body/head/arm movement it will affect your accuracy.
Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.
- Thread starter gregcantrall
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Regardless of what you look at last, if you have any body/head/arm movement it will affect your accuracy.
I would guess he's saying when playing well it will seem like you are seeing both at the same time. I know personally that the majority of shots I miss is from miss hitting the cueball.
i remember years back when Ray Reardon was world snooker champion, someone asked him whether he looked at OB or CB last, his answer............." I dont know, and I dont want to know"
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Best answer no doubt for competition!
That's what I got from it too. That's why the second time I asked about it I asked what he taught.
There is no doubt of his playing accomplishments. How rare an opportunity to ask a champion direct questions. Just as it is in golf, when you ask a great player how he does something the answer can be a bit fuzzy.
CJ is making one heck of an effort to improve his teaching! I am guessing that is his secret to success. Never quit. Always work to improve.
Just as all of us should!
Ken
One year anniversary!
Well it has been a year now and I am locked in to looking at the cue ball as the cue strikes it. It is without a doubt a better way for me. I am satisfied that I am playing the best I am capable of at this time.
I guess there is a difference where you are looking and what you are focused on. I played professional golf and when I heard people say keep your eye on the ball I cringed. I don't remember ever focusing on the ball after I had made my decision on execution and had my alignment set. At that point I went "blind" per se'. My focus was on my target and the feel of the execution. Never saw the ball again until it was probably at its apex of flight. Besides, the ball wasn't moving so why would I want to focus on that. Maybe the same could be said for pool.
Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
Not for me! The cue ball is my primary target and my focus is on the point on it I want to hit and the path through it I want the cue tip to take. The other consideration is the weight or speed I want on the cue tip.
When I am not playing well it can be because I am just looking but not focusing. When I am in stroke I see the ball on the tip and how long it is carried along with the deflection or lack thereof and the spin imparted to the cue ball. I know if I have hit the shot long before the cue ball gets to the object ball.
One other thing that is critical for me is to maintain the feeling that I am shooting with my fingers and not my arm. Focus on the cue ball and feeling it on my cue tip are keys for me to play my best. :thumbup:
I think you're onto something that will be experimented with more in the future Greg. FWIW, I play a lot of shots looking at CB last. Especially shots with back hand english... if I do look at the OB, it's not for aiming, but for judgement of CB positioning.
I believe there is a great misunderstanding with aiming theory. People assumed they are aimed up, when they are not. Aiming in most cases is / or should be, the placement of the bridge. If that isn't in the correct line, then the only way to make the shot is to swoop.... and that's what almost everyone has been doing, and that's why they look at the OB last, to feel the swoop needed to make the shot.
Training to look at the CB last, and stroke straight through it, is a powerful way of developing accurate pre-alignment (bridge hand placement).
It's worth noting that CTE methods align to the CB. And the method avoids swooping or any second guessing of the original alignment.
It begs the question of the point of looking at the OB last. For most, it's so they can second guess the line for the pot during the stroke phase. For me, it's of little value beyond helping to gauge the speed required for CB positioning.
An interesting challenge I give to some players is to tell them to line up a longish shot, fix their bridge tight and then only look that the CB and stroke straight through the center. This quickly identifies their pre-alignment tendencies... usually too undercut, and sometimes with variations thin and thick.
I think most players pre-align lazily then swoop and/or make slight bridge hand adjustments during the stroke to make the ball.
Keep in mind that looking at the OB is a crucial part of pre-alignment, it's after the bridge is set that it needn't matter.
When Greg began this thread a year ago, I was a confirmed CB-last player. But in the recent "Improvements" thread I said that my change to focusing on the OB was my biggest improvement of 2013.
I should note that I'm a relatively new player (3 years) and am experimenting with lots of things...so nothing is etched in stone.
Whatever works for you.
I should note that I'm a relatively new player (3 years) and am experimenting with lots of things...so nothing is etched in stone.
Whatever works for you.
Your post fits exactly what I have experienced.
Colin, first I would like to thank you for all the help you have given me in improving my game. Your potting drill has been a part of my practice(rarely of late) routine for well over a year now. It was that drill that showed I had a better potting average looking at the cue ball than looking at the object ball. I have also learned from your Power Breaking Instruction. Now I will have to watch the Backhand English video.
Your post fits exactly what I have experienced.
Thanks again for the help!:thumbup:
Colin, first I would like to thank you for all the help you have given me in improving my game. Your potting drill has been a part of my practice(rarely of late) routine for well over a year now. It was that drill that showed I had a better potting average looking at the cue ball than looking at the object ball. I have also learned from your Power Breaking Instruction. Now I will have to watch the Backhand English video.
Your post fits exactly what I have experienced.
Thanks again for the help!:thumbup:
Looking at the cueball for aiming is a definite deviation from the norm... I do think that it has some serious merit if done systematically...
The version of CTE I use is very different than what I have seen taught but it does share the commonality of orienting the aim and bridge on the cueball..
The only 2 aim points on the object ball I use are the edge and the center... Once I have established my connection to those 2 points focus turns to the cueball I do look at the object ball during the stroke but it is with a soft and not hard focus...
It is way easier for me to see my points and references on a ball 2 ft from my eyes than to pick out a point on an object ball maybe 8 ft away.....
Chris
The version of CTE I use is very different than what I have seen taught but it does share the commonality of orienting the aim and bridge on the cueball..
The only 2 aim points on the object ball I use are the edge and the center... Once I have established my connection to those 2 points focus turns to the cueball I do look at the object ball during the stroke but it is with a soft and not hard focus...
It is way easier for me to see my points and references on a ball 2 ft from my eyes than to pick out a point on an object ball maybe 8 ft away.....
Chris
In reference to your statement that I underlined and bolded above, this isn't quite true.
I've experimented with this quite a bit, and while my performance isn't affected much by closed eyes, it is easy to drift and miss the center of the CB when the eyes are closed. The shot is more commonly missed in this case when some unintentional outside english is applied.
The aim line is affected, due to changes in throw primarily, due to changes in speed and spin, hence it is important to be able to observe where and how one is striking the CB.
That said, I like your test as a way to test pre-alignment, and also as a way to develop better pre-alignment with practice.
I'm sure that most players will miss far more often with closed eyes, or even if just looking at the CB, as almost all players are highly reliant on swooping and bridge movement stroke adjustments.
You're welcome
Efren says "object ball"
In Tar Podcast #48, Justin asked Efren my question regarding where his eyes are when the cue strikes the cue ball. He says object ball and seems to think looking at the cue ball would be........well he puts his finger to his head and makes a scratching or circular motion. So much for my speculation that he looks at the cue ball.
The podcast is full of good stuff and gets Efren's and Shane's opinions on many things pool related.:thumbup:
In Tar Podcast #48, Justin asked Efren my question regarding where his eyes are when the cue strikes the cue ball. He says object ball and seems to think looking at the cue ball would be........well he puts his finger to his head and makes a scratching or circular motion.
So much for my speculation that he looks at the cue ball.The podcast is full of good stuff and gets Efren's and Shane's opinions on many things pool related.:thumbup:
I believe it depends on how you aim.
For ghost baller's and contact point aimer's, etc., looking at the OB last is probably more effective. For people that use the CB to aim, looking at the CB last is probably more effective. For myself, I use the CB as my target to aim. Thin cut shots, long distance shots, rail shots, shooting over another ball and the break are when I look at the CB last. With that said, aiming with the CB depends a lot on how close you can get your chin to the cue. People that stand more upright will have better perception for aiming at the OB. This is just my opinion based on my experiences, so take what you want from that, or not at all.
For ghost baller's and contact point aimer's, etc., looking at the OB last is probably more effective. For people that use the CB to aim, looking at the CB last is probably more effective. For myself, I use the CB as my target to aim. Thin cut shots, long distance shots, rail shots, shooting over another ball and the break are when I look at the CB last. With that said, aiming with the CB depends a lot on how close you can get your chin to the cue. People that stand more upright will have better perception for aiming at the OB. This is just my opinion based on my experiences, so take what you want from that, or not at all.
In Tar Podcast #48, Justin asked Efren my question regarding where his eyes are when the cue strikes the cue ball. He says object ball and seems to think looking at the cue ball would be........well he puts his finger to his head and makes a scratching or circular motion.
The podcast is full of good stuff and gets Efren's and Shane's opinions on many things pool related.:thumbup:
That pretty much says it all!:smile:
In Tar Podcast #48, Justin asked Efren my question regarding where his eyes are when the cue strikes the cue ball. He says object ball and seems to think looking at the cue ball would be........well he puts his finger to his head and makes a scratching or circular motion.
The podcast is full of good stuff and gets Efren's and Shane's opinions on many things pool related.:thumbup:
He asked Shane the same question and Shane said Object ball as well... but I can promise you, he looks at the cueball last. And if I were motivated to do so, I could prove it.
Watch Ronnie O'Sullivan's eyes.
Was watching Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sullivan Final Masters 2014 (Frames 13-14+A on youtube. There is a perfect view of Ronnie's eyes as he makes his shot at 5:00 in the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0txj-6mkbQ#t=296
Edit: Here is the same view of Mark Selby's eyes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0txj-6mkbQ#t=1131
Was watching Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sullivan Final Masters 2014 (Frames 13-14+A on youtube. There is a perfect view of Ronnie's eyes as he makes his shot at 5:00 in the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0txj-6mkbQ#t=296
Edit: Here is the same view of Mark Selby's eyes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0txj-6mkbQ#t=1131
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Chris,
You seem to be operating on the mistaken assumption that ALL pros, instructors, snooker players, etc. look at the object ball last. They don't. There are plenty of high level players that look at something other than the object ball last. Some look at both, some look at the cueball, There is a lot of variation. I heard that the great Joe Davis (Snooker) aimed shots from his bridge to his tip. I don't know if that is true, but its interesting.
Just remember, while the majority may look at the object ball last, all people don't do this.
KMRUNOUT
Ronnie is jacked up with the CB on the rail on that shot, so I would expect him to look at the CB during contact, and he does. Most instructors advise looking at CB-last for jacked-up rail shots and jump shots, where it's impossible to keep both the CB and OB in your peripheral vision simultaneously. Do you have any video clips of him on a normal, level-cue shot?
I look at OB last (with the exception of jump, jacked and break shots), but I also get very low with my chin on the cue, making it easy to keep the CB in my peripheral vision while looking at the OB. I'm curious Greg: how low do you get in your stance? I would expect guys with "old-school" upright stances to more commonly look at CB last, since they wouldn't really see the CB if looking at an OB in the distance.
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