Fargo Breakdown - Singles @ BCAPL Nationals
- Thread starter sbpoolleague
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When I first started playing at the Nationals (2005) the top 64 men in the Open singles tourney were designated as a Master. The top few players in the Masters singles tourney were designated as a Grand Master. If for a few years you did not do well in the higher division, you could petition the BCAPL to be lowered a division.
After the 2010 Nationals the BCAPL decided to add the Advanced division. Players who finished 9th thru 48th (I think) in the Open singles tourney were designated as Advanced, and 1st thru 8th were designated as a Master.
Women had different criteria for advancement. I think the top 2 or 4 players in the Open singles tourney were designated as Master and 3rd thru 16th were designated as a Advanced.
Back in 2005 you could be a player on the winning Open team and not see your division change. Once the Advanced division was introduced, the BCAPL put all Open players from the top finishing teams in the Open tourney into the Advanced category. This was an attempt to keep the same teams from taking all the Open team money.
The BCAPL has never changed the divisions of players on winning scotch doubles teams.
Mike,
Could you show Rob Seaz' results against players rated 85 points below him?
Taek
It wasn't simply top 64 -- it was done by a % of the field, and how you finished. I forget what the exact % number is but it was 5 or 10 %.
I'll take that bet for the Gold division, but only if you choose someone with an established Fargo Rating. That is because I feel that an unknown 525 player will probably win, and that you know that player. :grin:
Here are the top 11 Fargo ratings in last year's Open singles tourney. The first number is how they finished the tourney. Note that 8 of the top 11 ranked players finished in the top 11.
If you remove those 3 outliers
sorry, the correlation between Fargo Rate and tourney finish was almost 72%.1. Jon Brown 733 (1)
129. Adam Martin 728 (2) :sorry:
2. Lance Schofield 704 (3)
9. Sean Monkman 697 (4)
5. Leroy Dorsey 694 (5)
5. Ryan Robinson 687 (6)
4. Rigoberto Pena 686 (7)
49. John Moody Sr 686 (7) :sorry:
65. Devin Poteet 683 (9) :sorry:
9. Jerrod Frideres 679 (10)
7. Ray Reyes 675 (11)
However the range of ratings last year for the top 11 ranked players was large (58 points). This year that range is only 2 points!! Here are the top 11 ranked players in the Mixed Gold tourney:
Chad Barber (624)
Andres DeHerrera (624)
Leroy Lontine (624)
Mike Page (624)
Jim Ryan (624)
Floyd Farr (623)
Michael O'Meara (623)
Tracy Sanders (623)
Chisolm Woodson (623)
Ralph Carr (622)
Ted Dean (622)
Top to bottom in the field of 543 players the range of Fargo ratings in the Mixed Gold tourney is only 49 points. Of course almost 1/4 of the Gold field has a 525 rating.
I looked at all 129 of the 525's in the Gold division to see if any have games in the Fargo system. 13 players did have games. Most notably was Tom Joyce of Vancouver, BC. Tom has 273 games and a 622 Fargo rank, which almost puts him in the Platinum division. Another interesting player is Greg Romero II of Lakewood, CO. He has zero games but there is a Greg Romero of Thornton, CO (another suburb of Denver) that has 398 games and a 646 Fargo rating. I wonder if they are the same player.
I also checked the Platinum division. There are 21 totally unknown players (zero robustness). That's 15% of the field. It's a good bet that one of those players wins it all.
Mike Page -
Is old Leaguesys data ever going to be entered in, or is it in the wrong format/unusable...or for some other reson not ever going to be included? (and only new weekly BCAPL league data with the new league software will be included)?
Thanks.
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I'll take that bet for the Gold division, but only if you choose someone with an established Fargo Rating. That is because I feel that an unknown 525 player will probably win, and that you know that player. :grin:
Here are the top 11 Fargo ratings in last year's Open singles tourney. The first number is how they finished the tourney. Note that 8 of the top 11 ranked players finished in the top 11.
If you remove those 3 outliers
1. Jon Brown 733 (1)
129. Adam Martin 728 (2) :sorry:
2. Lance Schofield 704 (3)
9. Sean Monkman 697 (4)
5. Leroy Dorsey 694 (5)
5. Ryan Robinson 687 (6)
4. Rigoberto Pena 686 (7)
49. John Moody Sr 686 (7) :sorry:
65. Devin Poteet 683 (9) :sorry:
9. Jerrod Frideres 679 (10)
7. Ray Reyes 675 (11)
However the range of ratings last year for the top 11 ranked players was large (58 points). This year that range is only 2 points!! Here are the top 11 ranked players in the Mixed Gold tourney:
Chad Barber (624)
Andres DeHerrera (624)
Leroy Lontine (624)
Mike Page (624)
Jim Ryan (624)
Floyd Farr (623)
Michael O'Meara (623)
Tracy Sanders (623)
Chisolm Woodson (623)
Ralph Carr (622)
Ted Dean (622)
Top to bottom in the field of 543 players the range of Fargo ratings in the Mixed Gold tourney is only 49 points. Of course almost 1/4 of the Gold field has a 525 rating.
I looked at all 129 of the 525's in the Gold division to see if any have games in the Fargo system. 13 players did have games. Most notably was Tom Joyce of Vancouver, BC. Tom has 273 games and a 622 Fargo rank, which almost puts him in the Platinum division. Another interesting player is Greg Romero II of Lakewood, CO. He has zero games but there is a Greg Romero of Thornton, CO (another suburb of Denver) that has 398 games and a 646 Fargo rating. I wonder if they are the same player.
I also checked the Platinum division. There are 21 totally unknown players (zero robustness). That's 15% of the field. It's a good bet that one of those players wins it all.
Is that the same Mike Page of the author of Fargo Ratings?
Chisolm Woodson is a good buddy of mine, I'll be pulling for him.
The other issue you discovered should be looked into.
And again, I need odds -- I am going to pick the winner out of a field of 100s.
The person I am going to pick has a Fargo Rating that allowed them to be entered in the Gold Division but they don't have 200 games played.
That is Mike, just him and his son with that name using the Lookup function. He will be there giving talks on FargoRate
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I would do a last longer bet. You get first pick in gold and then I get one pick. I get first pick in silver and you get one pick. I play against both my picks in league. I am not on GAL.
I like that --- are you going to be in Vega$?
Maybe not but you catch a lot of walleyes, correct?
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I'll take that bet for the Gold division, but only if you choose someone with an established Fargo Rating. That is because I feel that an unknown 525 player will probably win, and that you know that player. :grin:
Here are the top 11 Fargo ratings in last year's Open singles tourney. The first number is how they finished the tourney. Note that 8 of the top 11 ranked players finished in the top 11.
If you remove those 3 outliers
1. Jon Brown 733 (1)
129. Adam Martin 728 (2) :sorry:
2. Lance Schofield 704 (3)
9. Sean Monkman 697 (4)
5. Leroy Dorsey 694 (5)
5. Ryan Robinson 687 (6)
4. Rigoberto Pena 686 (7)
49. John Moody Sr 686 (7) :sorry:
65. Devin Poteet 683 (9) :sorry:
9. Jerrod Frideres 679 (10)
7. Ray Reyes 675 (11)
However the range of ratings last year for the top 11 ranked players was large (58 points). This year that range is only 2 points!! Here are the top 11 ranked players in the Mixed Gold tourney:
Chad Barber (624)
Andres DeHerrera (624)
Leroy Lontine (624)
Mike Page (624)
Jim Ryan (624)
Floyd Farr (623)
Michael O'Meara (623)
Tracy Sanders (623)
Chisolm Woodson (623)
Ralph Carr (622)
Ted Dean (622)
Top to bottom in the field of 543 players the range of Fargo ratings in the Mixed Gold tourney is only 49 points. Of course almost 1/4 of the Gold field has a 525 rating.
I looked at all 129 of the 525's in the Gold division to see if any have games in the Fargo system. 13 players did have games. Most notably was Tom Joyce of Vancouver, BC. Tom has 273 games and a 622 Fargo rank, which almost puts him in the Platinum division. Another interesting player is Greg Romero II of Lakewood, CO. He has zero games but there is a Greg Romero of Thornton, CO (another suburb of Denver) that has 398 games and a 646 Fargo rating. I wonder if they are the same player.
I also checked the Platinum division. There are 21 totally unknown players (zero robustness). That's 15% of the field. It's a good bet that one of those players wins it all.
I for one am very much looking forward to next week and seeing how Fargo Rate pans out.
Just did a Find a Fair Match on their website. I put in my Fargo,592, and compared it to the top in the Gold Div, 624. The race to 6 came out 6-5 for the higher rated player. Don't think it could get any fairer than that.
Ultimately it should come down to the person that gets hot and plays the best. Which is the way it should be.
Amateur leagues
In ALL amateur leagues, there has always been a serious problem - as a player gets 'bumped up' to the next level, they quit coming to the nationals.
This is not just the BCAPL. VNEA has almost eliminated their master play. And we have also cut way back. Around 8-12 years ago, the BCAPL would add $20-$20K to the master team events. The teams would usually number around low 20 entries. The highest ever was 33 teams. Same story with the singles.
When we took over the leagues, 4% of the field got bumped from open to master. (there was no intermediate or advanced). We saw that most would consider that recognition as a death sentence, and not return.
My feelings were that the players that cashed were used to being the 'winners' because they truly were the better players in that division. But once bumped into the higher (masters) division, they were not the favorite - so they wouldn't come to the event.
This is one of the reasons we got involved with FargoRate. We feel players should be competing against similarly skilled players. The only thing really missing is more data - and that is being collected all the time. (3.4 million records now are in the system.)
When the data bank approaches that 'magic' number, most of the BS will be eliminated. Nobody said it would be easy - but someone had to do it. It has (and will) cost a lot of time and money. But I am very glad Mike Page and Steve are with us.
Come back in a couple of years and you will see the impact that FargoRate can have on the world of pool.
So-the problem isn't retention. The problem is to eliminate the players that want to 'steal' everyone's money by coming in under their speed. Fargo makes that MUCH more difficult.
There is a lot more work to do - but we have made HUGE steps. I hope all the naysayers and doubters would just sit back and watch instead of trying to 'beat us down'.
Mark Griffin
In ALL amateur leagues, there has always been a serious problem - as a player gets 'bumped up' to the next level, they quit coming to the nationals.
This is not just the BCAPL. VNEA has almost eliminated their master play. And we have also cut way back. Around 8-12 years ago, the BCAPL would add $20-$20K to the master team events. The teams would usually number around low 20 entries. The highest ever was 33 teams. Same story with the singles.
When we took over the leagues, 4% of the field got bumped from open to master. (there was no intermediate or advanced). We saw that most would consider that recognition as a death sentence, and not return.
My feelings were that the players that cashed were used to being the 'winners' because they truly were the better players in that division. But once bumped into the higher (masters) division, they were not the favorite - so they wouldn't come to the event.
This is one of the reasons we got involved with FargoRate. We feel players should be competing against similarly skilled players. The only thing really missing is more data - and that is being collected all the time. (3.4 million records now are in the system.)
When the data bank approaches that 'magic' number, most of the BS will be eliminated. Nobody said it would be easy - but someone had to do it. It has (and will) cost a lot of time and money. But I am very glad Mike Page and Steve are with us.
Come back in a couple of years and you will see the impact that FargoRate can have on the world of pool.
So-the problem isn't retention. The problem is to eliminate the players that want to 'steal' everyone's money by coming in under their speed. Fargo makes that MUCH more difficult.
There is a lot more work to do - but we have made HUGE steps. I hope all the naysayers and doubters would just sit back and watch instead of trying to 'beat us down'.
Mark Griffin
Nice post Mark
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Never been fishing for Walleye. Thinking of someone else?
Responded via PM.
So what happens to a player whose rating is between the bottom and middle of the Fargo derived brackets? What if they play two or three years and never cash? What mechanism is there to drop the player to a lower bracker where they MIGHT have a chance? How many players will we lose over that scenario? At least in the "old" days, a player could petition BCAPL to be dropped. That is no longer an option. Sandbag anyone?
Lyn
Lyn