Fargo rant

[MattPoland]

I had a fun idea to slowly get rid of sandbaggers. Setup a few tournaments divided by ratings. Take the top 4 finishers and add 50 to their rating at the end of it as part of their "prize". If you are really at your rating, play another hour a week to play up to your new skill, if you are sandbagging, well now you are not.

Sounds fun.

I trust FargoRate has some not-so-secret plans in place to address sandbagging. Players usually dump when it means nothing. Most games mean something. So it’s hard for that to drop a robust average meaningfully.

And then when it might affect a player rating, I assume FargoRate has the opportunity to incorporate tools to detect and track oddball results. Perhaps the player gets flagged in some way on a watch list for tournament directors. Perhaps simply the outlier results have less weighting in affecting your average.

I mean, if SVB lost a 9-ball race to 21 against me, FargoRate probably has access to statistical algorithms that could identify those results as suspect and act accordingly.


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[mikepage]

So how is this, FargoBilliards is having a thanksgiving trnmnt. 3 players under 1500?
Either its a bone for mediocre league players or sandbaggers snap it off:smile: Having the later happen would be doubly cruel, finally a trnmnt BillyJoJimBob , Bubba and cousin Lester can be competitive in:wink:

Neither

Things look different in a major metropolitan area. We've got about 200K people. This is the distribution of established players from our league list. If we go higher than 1500, we would be doing a narrow elite kind of thing and the number of possible teams would be pretty limited

 

[mikepage]

so i want to start off by saying im a solid b player playing 9 ball /mayby A player playing one pocket. I played in one tournament 2 years ago and it was a back pocket 9 ball tournament, I beat one player who is good at 9 ball but dindnt play back pocket, i got like 6th in tourny, I move out of state, went to play in tourny they checked my fargo and it says 719, So i guess i have to spend alot of money playing in tournaments to show im not a good player so rating goes down. Anyone else have this problem with fargo , not looking to steal but i got 30players who can attest to my rating.

Back to the original post. Here Ernie is your data in the system. It is 21 games, most of which are played against opponents who themselves are unrated (or at least unestablished).

I would like to clarify a few things. First you said your rating got lowered when you contacted me or Mark Griffin or something. We have never lowered or adjusted a rating in any way. Fargo Ratings are what they are and are driven by the data. What we did for you was input a starter guess of 675. Your performance rating for those 21 games is 715--and it still is 715. The starter guess tempers the early swings in performance to recommend a preliminary rating that people may find useful if they have rough confidence in the starter guess. The data soon takes over.

So as I explained to you in my email from a few months ago below, you do not yet have a Fargo Rating. If you are still in Vegas, it would not be hard for you to get one. There are events at Putters, Griffs, and elsewhere (as well as leagues) that would log games into the system.

 

[mikepage]

I don't have a Fargo rating and I don't want one but I have a question. Do tournaments handicap the field based upon Fargo ratings? Is that what the OP is complaining about?

What happens if you play in one of the tournaments as an unknown?

Many tournaments handicap based on Fargo Ratings. They also restrict entry based on Fargo Ratings (i.e., a "600 and under" tournament). They also assess entry fees based on ratings.

It is a local decision how to treat unrated/unestablished players, and it will vary depending on circumstances. Here are a few rough recommendations I have.

If it is big entry/big added $$, don't let them play. This is for two reasons. First it is a bigger screwup if you are wrong (let in a monster), and second, such tournaments bring monsters out of the bushes.

If it is a low-entry weekly tournament, I prefer a TD make an actual best guess by talking to them and maybe clocking their play a bit--like to old days. Usually that actual guess is not too bad, and the player starts getting games in the system. On the rare occasion you are horribly wrong, well the world still goes on.

If it is somewhere inbetween, like a monthly event, let them in with a "protect the house" cushion. That is if you think they likely play 500 speed, let them play as a 550 or something. If you think they likely play 625, let them in as 675 --that sort of thing.

 

[chefjeff]

Many years ago I played in an eight ball bar league.
A teammate had a great eye and could make nearly any shot but he froze up
whenever confronted with a draw shot. His struggle was a sorry sight to behold.
The draw problem left him in the bottom half of the team. One time I suggested
that we go over to a little pool hall close by and see if he could make some
progress on the draw stuff. Nope. I don't know if there was some reason behind
his refusal but he was not interested in getting better.

I finally quit a league team (after 8 years!) because one of the players couldn't draw
and refused to learn how to do it with this excuse: "I can't draw a ball." (period) I can
show you, I said. "No, I can't draw. It is impossible." She believed it with all her
heart.

When I quit, she got mad at me for "letting the team down," and I told her in no
uncertain terms why I quit and just who was letting the team down.

I've observed the same thing in business. It might be something they learned (ahem)
to do in skool, maybe?


Jeff Livingston

 

[alphadog]

Mike your last 3 replies all make a lot of sense. I didnt realize how many 400 level players are in a league system. Also your over rate to be safe methodology really is fair.
Thanks for taking the time to answer questions.

 

[Maniac]

I finally quit a league team (after 8 years!) because one of the players couldn't draw
and refused to learn how to do it with this excuse: "I can't draw a ball." (period) I can
show you, I said. "No, I can't draw. It is impossible." She believed it with all her
heart.

When I quit, she got mad at me for "letting the team down," and I told her in no
uncertain terms why I quit and just who was letting the team down.

Jeff Livingston

I've got a woman that plays on an 8-ball team of mine that absolutely refuses to use the mechanical bridge. I've seen her lose games and ultimately matches because of it. I've actually seen her trying to bridge her cue with the joint in front of her bridge hand.

Many times I've offered to spend time to show her how to use the bridge, but she wants no part of it. She says she will NEVER use it. She's been a SL4 for many years now but she just dropped down to a 3 this week because she's lost so many matches.

This is the kind of crap that leaves me shaking my head :shrug:. Makes me want to :banghead:.

Maniac

 

[hang-the-9]

I've got a woman that plays on an 8-ball team of mine that absolutely refuses to use the mechanical bridge. I've seen her lose games and ultimately matches because of it. I've actually seen her trying to bridge her cue with the joint in front of her bridge hand.

Many times I've offered to spend time to show her how to use the bridge, but she wants no part of it. She says she will NEVER use it. She's been a SL4 for many years now but she just dropped down to a 3 this week because she's lost so many matches.

This is the kind of crap that leaves me shaking my head :shrug:. Makes me want to :banghead:.

Maniac

I call this "being dumb on purpose", with all the info about everything being so easily gotten to now, to refuse to learn something is just crazy to me. Sure, some people just have a limit on their intellect, low IQ and issues with how the brain works, but there is a pretty large group of people that chose to be dumb on purpose. Flat Earthers, people that think NASA is all fake, people refusing medicine due to religion, etc...

 

[philly]

Just want to say that I think the Fargorate system is great and it's great because it is accurate so it works. If you go to the Fargorate page, set up a favorites list of people you know and/ or play with and you will see it is spot on in their numerical rankings of where YOU think they should be in relation to other players.

One word of caution. Do not look up an opponents Fargo rating if you don't know who they are. I had a friend do that at the Expo. My friend plays well and is a 624 Fargorate. He looked up his opponents Fargorate, saw it was a 705 and he basically beat himself.

 

[maha]

why. you would want to know so you can adjust to play against his speed. that is foolish at best. just because he blew it doesnt mean others should not know how the opponent plays. and besides the opponent was better than him a nd he was supposed to lose.

 

[easy-e]

I've got a woman that plays on an 8-ball team of mine that absolutely refuses to use the mechanical bridge. I've seen her lose games and ultimately matches because of it. I've actually seen her trying to bridge her cue with the joint in front of her bridge hand.

Many times I've offered to spend time to show her how to use the bridge, but she wants no part of it. She says she will NEVER use it. She's been a SL4 for many years now but she just dropped down to a 3 this week because she's lost so many matches.

This is the kind of crap that leaves me shaking my head :shrug:. Makes me want to :banghead:.

Maniac

One option could be that she’s stubborn and/or prideful. Maybe she used to be open to the idea of learning. Then some dude(s) came around telling her how they’d teach her how to play better (without her asking) and she checked out. People hang on to weird things sometimes.

Edited to add: one of my biggest pet peeves is being offered unsolicited advice from strangers.

 

[sixpack]

One option could be that she’s stubborn and/or prideful. Maybe she used to be open to the idea of learning. Then some dude(s) came around telling her how they’d teach her how to play better (without her asking) and she checked out. People hang on to weird things sometimes.

Edited to add: one of my biggest pet peeves is being offered unsolicited advice from strangers.

Amen. Hate that.

 

[MattPoland]

One option could be that she’s stubborn and/or prideful. Maybe she used to be open to the idea of learning. Then some dude(s) came around telling her how they’d teach her how to play better (without her asking) and she checked out. People hang on to weird things sometimes.

Edited to add: one of my biggest pet peeves is being offered unsolicited advice from strangers.

My wife plays in leagues too. Sometimes we are on the same team. Sometimes she plays in the women’s league. It’s almost every night some rail bird or low level make player tries to offer advice. It’s like playing white Knight makes them feel better about themselves when either (A) they don’t play well enough to be offering advice, or (B) they are clueless just how unwanted the advice is. It’s one of the things that makes pool less appealing for women in general.


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[iusedtoberich]

Mike Page: thank for explaining Ernie's [unestablished] rating. However, why is the back pocket tournament even in the system? I recall the system would only accept 8, 9, and 10 ball. Specialty games like banks, one hole, back pocket, straight pool, etc, would not be entered. Everyone in Philly that plays back pocket on the regular knows its as far away from regular 9 ball as one pocket is.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Just want to say that I think the Fargorate system is great and it's great because it is accurate so it works. If you go to the Fargorate page, set up a favorites list of people you know and/ or play with and you will see it is spot on in their numerical rankings of where YOU think they should be in relation to other players.

One word of caution. Do not look up an opponents Fargo rating if you don't know who they are. I had a friend do that at the Expo. My friend plays well and is a 624 Fargorate. He looked up his opponents Fargorate, saw it was a 705 and he basically beat himself.

I like this advice!

 

[lorider]

My wife plays in leagues too. Sometimes we are on the same team. Sometimes she plays in the women’s league. It’s almost every night some rail bird or low level make player tries to offer advice. It’s like playing white Knight makes them feel better about themselves when either (A) they don’t play well enough to be offering advice, or (B) they are clueless just how unwanted the advice is. It’s one of the things that makes pool less appealing for women in general.


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I have an 18 year old girl who just joined apa. Her only experience played ng is just hitting some balls around in a friends table. Naturally she has been lowered to a 1 after 3 weeks.

I did not show up last Sunday due to pulling a muscle in my back but I text my co captain on how she should match up. Its her daughter that us a 1. Well anyway during her match one of our team mates who deep down is a well meaning nice guy but just talks to damn much during league and constantly bragging about his wins and complaining about his losses.

Telling you this so you will have an idea of why this incident happened. Every time the 1's inning was over due to a miss our team mate says she should have done this it she should have done that.

After about the 5th time he told her something she looks at him and says....just shut the fvck up during my match is not the time to try and teach me how to play pool.

Actually I have told him to shut the fvck up a couple times myself when I was in a match. We are both 6's.

Funny story about him that happened a couple weeks ago. He played a 7 in 9 ball and beat the guy 15-5. Well he commenced to bragging for quite a while. It just so happened that the 7 asked me if he could replay 9 ball since they were shorthanded. I said sure as i did not have ant yo play either of his 3's or his 1.

When I got ready to play him my team mate asked....do you think you can beat him lime I did. I replied....dunno but we will find out. Well I won 16-4 in 6 less innings than my team mate did again him. That shut him up for the rest of the night lol.

 

[Bikelink]

Yup I hear a lot of folks getting it right...sure in a few games you could be way to high or low...not supposed to be 'established' until at least 200 games but even then it gets better over time...and that's if your skill is consistent. So yeah if you play in a fargo handicapped event take your lumps once or twice and it'll even out.

 

[sixpack]

It’s a rating. Not a sentence. You are fee to play as well or poorly as you choose.

 

[philly]

Yup I hear a lot of folks getting it right...sure in a few games you could be way to high or low...not supposed to be 'established' until at least 200 games but even then it gets better over time...and that's if your skill is consistent. So yeah if you play in a fargo handicapped event take your lumps once or twice and it'll even out.

Exactly. I now a few guys that I play went in with a high rating and I'm thinking no way. Over time they came down. Some guys went up to where they should be rated.

 

[optician]

First of all how does backpocket 9 ball get into fargo , and the second two players coulndnt spell backpocket 9 ball