Fargo rating

[Cameron Smith]

Fair enough... but then I guess we need to also determine the volume of players of each game. 40k seems like a big number, but is it 40k of 4M...?..., 40M?

Maybe I'm giving golf's difficulty too much credit...?. I do golf and know several people that obsess over both games. I can think of 5 people off the top of my head that are low 700spd pool players that aren't scratch golfers. However if they weren't playing one game, they were playing the other.

Again, maybe I'm just assigning too much difficulty to obtaining a scratch avg in golf.

Good point, This article gives some stats on different handicaps. Scratch players make up 1.85% of players. By comparison, the only stat I can find for Fargo is their website states there are 300 players with a 700 rating in he US. I don’t know what percentage that is but it is definitely lower than 2%. However, it’s tricky to compare because there are likely a higher proportion of super casual pool players than there are golfers and I don’t know Fargos reach at this time, so I still think the 675-700 is about right considering the relative distance to the top professionals.

Personally, I think you will see people at varying skill levels in their hobbies not because of inherent difficulty necessarily but some things just click better for one person. That and although I do believe pool to be a very hard game, it’s possibly the easiest game to practice. You can install a table in your home and recreate any scenario with ease. That already gives a big learning advantage over golf since I don’t think I can could even plant myself on 6th hole sand trap for 2 hours before getting kicked out lol.

 

[sixpack]

Then you are likely underrated. Been discussed on the forum often. The consensus is that it takes a Fargo of about 625-650 or so before you can expect to play the nine ball ghost even, and higher than that on tough equipment.

Of course, it's possible that you have a terrible break and a poor tactical game, in which case your performance against the ghost will outrun your performance against an opponent, but outside of other pronounced weaknesses in other parts of the game, your experience is uncommon. If you can beat the ghost 50% of the time on a Diamond and don't have major weaknesses in other areas of the game, getting to 650 should be an easy goal to accomplish.

It's funny you say that. I was just thinking the same thing the other day.

Fargo is a rating of performance in competition. Not skills.

I used to think I got a lot out of my game and I punched above my weight. Despite having poor skills I was 'scrappy.'

Then I was shocked when I did the BU exam. After not playing for 10 years I jumped in and tried it and got a 147 on a 9' gold crown with decently snug pockets. (I think 4.25" IIRC)

I play pretty strong against the ghost and do extremely well on 'skills' type of challenges.

So it finally dawned on me that I actually underperform in competition.

I won despite a poor tactical game, not because of a good tactical game.

That was a huge shift in mindset for me and very humbling.

Now I'm working on my strategy and mostly discipline and hopefully that will result in a jump in my game.

 

[WobblyStroke]

"Scratch" pool is def under 700FR imo. I never looked into a direct comparison, but for a while considered being able to beat the 9-ball ghost fairly consistently as 'scratch'. Just looking at comparative percentages of players who are scratch vs FR700, the 700s are more rare as pointed out above so I'd say about 650 for scratch level play is about right and fits nicely with my idea of beating the 9b ghost at least 60% of the time.

 

[hang-the-9]

Another vote for scratch = 700.
Styer was a 750 when he won the Kremlin cup, wasn't he?
I would consider that level a ball better than scratch.
What's a ball's worth in fargo?

I think for every extra ball a person can run on average, it's about 60-80 points in skill. So a 650 should be able to beat the 9 ball ghost, a 710/720 can beat the 10 ball ghost, a top pro at 800+ can beat the 11 or 12 ball ghost. I am talking about beating the ghost in the majority of tries, not just every so often.

 

[Woodshaft]

I'd agree that beating the ghost over 50% in 9-ball on a 9-foot Diamond is a good defining point for a "scratch" pool player.
So 650-660 is probably a fair guess.
Does Mr. Mike Page have an opinion on this?

 

[Fatboy]

The only time a rating matters is when you’re down on the pay ball.

The guy who holds up has what really matters.

Rest is white noise.

Fatboy<——-old school

 

[Woodshaft]

The only time a rating matters is when you’re down on the pay ball.

Fargorate is all about the wins. Winners of fargorated events have higher fargorates, according to Mike Page's formula.
But like you, I observe the player's game ability, not their fargorate.
I consider myself a scratch player btw--- nobody in my region gives me a spot.

 

[JolietJames]

The only time a rating matters is when you’re down on the pay ball.

The guy who holds up has what really matters.

Rest is white noise.

Fatboy<——-old school

For pro events and gambling, I'll agree.
Most amateur tournaments are based on races to a rating these days.
It is no longer required for players to pay their dues when it comes to these tournaments.
I miss the good old days when I'd occasionally be in tournaments with the likes of Marco Marquez, Tom Karabatsis, Cliff Joiner, Larry Nevel, etc..
I didn't win even one, but every rack I won felt like an achievement and I learned something. The rare occasion when I would knock a monster into the B side felt like winning the US Open to me.

 

[FastManners]

I don't know... Scratch golf is pretty darn sporty.

I know people equate 750 to "pro" pool. However in my mind that's someone who places focus on developing their game, puts serious practice in and experiences a taste of success. To be a 750 pool player. You need to take things real serious. Much like becoming a scratch golfer doesn't happen with haphazard effort.

How about we go 730-750...? I definitely wouldn't go lower than 730.

I think that is a pretty fair assessment of where the pro level would be for the men to be determined as pro level. What do you think would be the Fargo rate for a woman to be classified as pro level? I was thinking around 670-690.

 

[easy-e]

I still say a 650 rated player loses playing the 9-ball ghost on a 9' Diamond. If they get 4 out of 10 sets I'd be impressed.

 

[David in FL]

I may go a bit lower, assuming a "scratch golfer" is good enough to make par but won't be able to hang on the pro tour even with the lower level pros. I would liken them to a good regional player, which is abut 700. 750ish is where Jeremy Sossei, Justin Hall, Jeremy Jones, Brandon Shuff, Tyler Styer, John Schmidt, etc.. live, and those guys are a bit over local hero level.

A scratch golfer, is a decent golfer at most country clubs. Nothing more than that. Scratch is nowhere near your professional.

There are hundreds of little golf mini tours. Scratch golfers usually can’t even cash. To put it into perspective, my niece went to high school with a 16-year-old who finished 8th in the USGA Junior amateur championship. At the time his handicap was +3. He’s playing golf now for a small division one school here in Florida, but has no expectations whatsoever of playing professional golf for a living. In his own words, he’s just not that good.

Somewhere between 1.5 and 2% of golfers with establish handicap play at scratch (0.0 handicap) or better. That’s around 1 out of every 60 players. If you translate that to pool, you get a much, much lower threshold for scratch. Probably 600ish or even a little less. Fargo rate says that there are somewhere around 300 players in the 700 range in the United States. There are probably 5 times that number of scratch golfers in the state of Florida alone.

I’ve played golf for over 50 years. I came within two points of scratch. A decent golfer to be sure, but really not all that. Hell, at age 64, playing just a few times a month, I play to about a 7 handicap right now.

Just some perspective.

 

[The_JV]

I still say a 650 rated player loses playing the 9-ball ghost on a 9' Diamond. If they get 4 out of 10 sets I'd be impressed.

Maybe, but for an example I'm currently sitting at 677 and only get challenged by the 9ball ghost if I do the pro version that doesn't allow BIH after the break. I know most claim the same, but I think my real spd is about 10pts higher. I only have ~600games in the system and suffered some horrible efforts that I've been slowly recovering from.

My point... is the difference between a 650 and 680 equate to an additional 40% success rate against the 9 ball ghost...?

 

[easy-e]

Maybe, but for an example I'm currently sitting at 677 and only get challenged by the 9ball ghost if I do the pro version that doesn't allow BIH after the break. I know most claim the same, but I think my real spd is about 10pts higher. I only have ~600games in the system and suffered some horrible efforts that I've been slowly recovering from.

My point... is the difference between a 650 and 680 equate to an additional 40% success rate against the 9 ball ghost...?

I couldn't answer that. But I would let anyone in my area who is 650-675 play the ghost for some cash.

 

[WobblyStroke]

I still say a 650 rated player loses playing the 9-ball ghost on a 9' Diamond. If they get 4 out of 10 sets I'd be impressed.

It must depend on where the player's strengths and weaknesses are bc if open table play is a strength, 650s should dominate the 9b ghost. Im not rated atm but I play with 2 guys in the 610-630 range that both slap the 9b ghost around on a 9footer.

 

[easy-e]

It must depend on where the player's strengths and weaknesses are bc if open table play is a strength, 650s should dominate the 9b ghost. Im not rated atm but I play with 2 guys in the 610-630 range that both slap the 9b ghost around on a 9footer.

If you could guarantee an open table after every break, I'd be on your side of the argument.

 

[WobblyStroke]

A scratch golfer, is a decent golfer at most country clubs. Nothing more than that. Scratch is nowhere near your professional.

There are hundreds of little golf mini tours. Scratch golfers usually can’t even cash. To put it into perspective my niece went to high school with a 16-year-old who finished it in the USGA JUNIOR amateur championship. At the time his handicap was +3. He’s playing golf now for a small division one school here in Florida, but has no expectations whatsoever of playing professional golf for a living. In his own words, he’s just not that good.

Somewhere between 1.5 and 2% of golfers with establish handicap play at scratch (0.0 handicap) or better. That’s around 1 out of every 60 players. If you translate that to pool, you get a much, much lower threshold for scratch. Probably 600ish or even a little less. Fargo rate says that there are somewhere around 300 players in the 700 range in the United States. There are probably 5 times that number of scratch golfers in the state of Florida alone.

I’ve played golf for over 50 years. I came within two points of scratch. A decent golfer to be sure, but really not all that. Hell, at age 64, playing just a few times a month, I play to about a 7 handicap right now.

Just some perspective.

This. According to USGA data for 2020, there were 40,000 scratch or better golfers in America. Compare that to 300 players with a 700 or better Fargo. So I guess 'scratch level' pool will be at whatever Fargo occurs 130X more often than 700+. Low to mid 600s imo. About even with my old 'beating the 9b ghost' estimate.

How many scratch or better golfers are there in the United States?

How many scratch or better golfers are there in the United States? There are very few scratch golfers or plus handicap golfers

thegolfnewsnet.com

edit: maybe we have to dump the rarity of occurrence metric bc according to this breakdown of FargoRate frequency there are about 30 600s per million in population, putting the total number of 600s in America around 10k, making pool 600s 4x more rare than scratch golfers. I didn't see the total number of players who have a FargoRating in order to find relative percentages, but 2.3M golfers have an official handicap for a 1.75% scratch or better percentage.

https://i.redd.it/mlweu7nmn8241.png

I think if we just go by the original definition of par as the score one should finish the hole with when playing AT AN EXPERT LEVEL, we can find a similar reference point for pool. For me, it has always been being able to beat the 9b ghost more often than not bc if you are doing that, you are playing pool at an expert level imo.

 

[WobblyStroke]

If you could guarantee an open table after every break, I'd be on your side of the argument.

So I guess their open table play AND break to get to those open tables need to be strengths. They are open enough often enough to win races even with an average break imo.

 

[The_JV]

So I guess their open table play AND break to get to those open tables need to be strengths. They are open enough often enough to win races even with an average break imo.

The ghost has always really boiled down to the break once you've developed decent potting skills. You're not trying to drop a ball. Just avoid producing clusters. The pro version is no different. However you have the additional task of controlling the outcome of both the CB and 1.

 

[easy-e]

So I guess their open table play AND break to get to those open tables need to be strengths. They are open enough often enough to win races even with an average break imo.

If they are that consistent, I don't see why their fargo ratings would stay so low. If they're good enough to "slap the 9b ghost around on a 9' Diamond" then why are they not winning more? Are they that bad at the other parts of the game?

 

[WobblyStroke]

If they are that consistent, I don't see why their fargo ratings would stay so low. If they're good enough to "slap the 9b ghost around on a 9' Diamond" then why are they not winning more? Are they that bad at the other parts of the game?

Ball in hand is a huge head start. Can any other 630ish players chime in with their experience playing 9b ghost? I really didn't expect guys at this level would be getting out less than half the time with ball in hand off the break. The two i mentioned def win more races than they lose to the ghost. I didn't think of them as outliers in any way. Saw a 630v620 race on youtube the other day with a 16y.o. in it and thought those guys' level would def be crushing the ghost on the regular as well.

edit: One possibility I can think of for their overperformance, if that is what we are dealing with, is it is easy to play your best game practising by yourself in your home or a familiar pool hall vs being in a less familiar venue in the heat of competition (plus ur opponent doesn't spot u BIH every rack )