Fedor Vs Tony 1 pkt

[JAM]

Cliff was definitely a talent. Unfortunately, at his best, he was still playing 1/2 to a full ball under Efren, who was also at his best..

I disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion, of course. Nobody, which includes you and me, has seen each one of these players in their prime.

There are no digital recordings of players from yesteryear. Word of mouth and regional favorites goes a long way as far as these "Whos the Best" threads. That's what happens on discussion forums sometimes.

 

[skogstokig]

I disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion, of course. Nobody, which includes you and me, has seen each one of these players in their prime.

There are no digital recordings of players from yesteryear. Word of mouth and regional favorites goes a long way as far as these "Whos the Best" threads. That's what happens on discussion forums sometimes.

cliff must be a lot older than i thought. there's videos of him playing 1p from 1994 up to quite recently. not sure many would put his prime outside of the 2000's though?

 

[SBC]

Why should a single race to 30 be more determinative about "where they stand" than an examination of their performance in dozens of public, high stakes tournaments in a variety of settings over a period of months and years?

Because matching up for the money man to man is the best....try it.

 

[lfigueroa]

Action pool just isn't the kind of pool that I often get excited about. You are the opposite, and that's just fine. I'll watch what I enjoy and you can do the same. Now that you've chosen to make our debate personal, leave me alone!

It's not a question of getting excited over anything.

The question revolves around your assertion that, when in comes to pool, "greatness is measured in titles." To a large extent I agree. However, because it's pool and action is throughly woven throughout the fabric of the sport, gambling matches must also be considered. It's been that way for 100 years and it has nothing to do with your viewing preference.

Lou Figueroa

 

[jokrswylde]

Personally, I don't care if any of them they ever gamble. They all have ample opportunity to show their greatness on the tournament trail and every one of them is found in the field of every major. SVB's win at the 2022 World Championship was his only major in the last seven years. By comparison, Filler has won the China Open, the UK Open, the US Open, the World Championship and the gold medal at the World Games in that same period.

Shane, still one of the truly elite, is not the best anymore, and he knows it. In my opinion, Fedor would demolish him at one pocket in any long race. Two-time World 10-ball champ Kaci would easily beat him at 10-ball, and Filler would school him in a long 9ball race.

Luckily for Shane, he is smart enough to steer clear of today's best in action. Greatness is measured in titles, and the title count in recent years tells us what we already know about Shane. He's not prevailing over the toughest fields very often anymore.

I agree that SVB can't out shoot Fedor, Filler, FSR, and a few others. I think he stands a much better chance with winner breaks from anywhere and one on the spot, but it doesn't seem he has totally figured out the MR break rules.

While he hasn't gotten the tourney wins in recent years, it seems every tourney if he is not in the final 8, he is at least in the final 16. I wonder how many players have been as consistently good, if not great, as he has been in recent history.

 

[sjm]

I agree that SVB can't out shoot Fedor, Filler, FSR, and a few others. I think he stands a much better chance with winner breaks from anywhere and one on the spot, but it doesn't seem he has totally figured out the MR break rules.

While he hasn't gotten the tourney wins in recent years, it seems every tourney if he is not in the final 8, he is at least in the final 16. I wonder how many players have been as consistently good, if not great, as he has been in recent history.

Yes, well said. Shane's always one of the ones to be reckoned with, and is, as you suggest, one of those that's always there in Stage 2. Very few have been as consistently good as him, just as you've noted. As I've so often noted, he's still elite. Point well taken about the Matchroom break, which has forced all the top players to rely more on their after-the-break skills than in the past. More of one's skills are tested in the new format, and it has suited some more than others.

 

[sjm]

I disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion, of course. Nobody, which includes you and me, has seen each one of these players in their prime.

There are no digital recordings of players from yesteryear. Word of mouth and regional favorites goes a long way as far as these "Whos the Best" threads. That's what happens on discussion forums sometimes.

Good point about the lack of footage of the old-time greats. For example, Eddie Taylor watched all the greats from 1940-2000 and says Rags Fitzpatrick was the best one pocket player he ever saw. Rags died in 1960 so awfully few of us on AZB saw him play. Maybe he was the best and maybe he wasn't. We'll never know.

I'll admit that I didn't watch Cliff Joyner play one pocket on many occasions, but I do recall just how highly Efren thought of Cliff's game. Efren used to say that "Cliff plays one pocket the right way." Who am I to argue with the Magician? Cliff was a very special player, rightly remembered for his sustained excellence.

As you suggest, the "best ever" debates do have a bias that favors the more modern players. I think this is true of most sports.

 

[WardS]

Kaci would hang in there at some point in the match, then his inconsistency would crop up, and Filler would drill him. I think he stands a "good chance" against SVB playing rotation games, but is by no means a lock. But I would bet against him versus Filler in ANY game except snooker.

I take Kaci in 10 ball, he’s won 2 of last 3 big 10 ball tournaments, beat Filler in the most recent one. According to the last interview I recently saw at the last 10 ball event Filler said the last time they played Kaci beat him 10-1 and Filler was eager to play again, Filler jumped to a 4-1 lead and Kaci bounced back and beat him for the World Championship.So I favor Kaci if he recovered from his injuries.

 

[The_JV]

Fedor mentioned Alex in the post-match interview and said he's not ready for him yet.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=968367044395532

The last time Alex and Fedor locked horns. Fedor claimed that Alex was pulling some shady sharking techniques. This was the match that they ended up switching racking rules mid stream. Not sure of the game but based on Fedor comments in an interview afterward that he wasn't impressed.

What Fedor actually said in the quoted interview above was: "Don't mention that name. That's too early". I'm certain that has more to do with the supposed Alex antics then Fedor believing he can't run with Alex in 1pkt.

 

[The_JV]

Personally, I like Fedor Gorst, Tony Chohan, Josh Filler, Alex Pagulayan and Dennis Orcullo as the top five at one pocket right now.

I hope you didn't order that list 1st thru 5th....?

Until Tony can manage to beat Alex without weight. I don't see how he could possibly be considered the stronger player. Ignore me if you didn't place any importance on the order in which you typed the names.

 

[BasementDweller]

Time marches on and it always will. In a competitive endeavor the players get better. So at some point, the comparisons to yesteryear just become nostalgic noise. We all have our personal favorites that we put on pedestals and we tell ourselves they reached the apex of human potential, but guess what -- they didn't. Their legends tend to grow with time. I think the truth is -- pool, snooker, and 3 cushion have never been played at the level they are being played at now and I think it's a great time to be a fan of them.

 

[sjm]

I hope you didn't order that list 1st thru 5th....?

Until Tony can manage to beat Alex without weight. I don't see how he could possibly be considered the stronger player. Ignore me if you didn't place any importance on the order in which you typed the names.

No, not in order. They were just my top five.

 

[BasementDweller]

I hope you didn't order that list 1st thru 5th....?

Until Tony can manage to beat Alex without weight. I don't see how he could possibly be considered the stronger player. Ignore me if you didn't place any importance on the order in which you typed the names.

I think Tony is more accurately placed around Bustamante. I can't remember if they've played or not but it would be an interesting match-up. Tony may be slightly more creative and Bustamante may be more consistent.

Consistency is the killer for the one-pocket specialists. Well that coupled with letting less experienced one-pocket players shoot without a shot clock. This nullifies their knowledge advantage as top-tier players can find a shot if given enough time to do so. This stood out years ago when Frost played Orcullo. Dennis would just study the table forever until he figured it out. Scott would come up and instantly know what to do.

It wasn't even close.

 

[iusedtoberich]

The last time Alex and Fedor locked horns. Fedor claimed that Alex was pulling some shady sharking techniques. This was the match that they ended up switching racking rules mid stream. Not sure of the game but based on Fedor comments in an interview afterward that he wasn't impressed.

...snip...

I think that was another Filipino player that he was mentioning on the Joe Rogan podcast. I don't think it was Alex. I can't remember which one right now, however.

 

[skogstokig]

I think that was another Filipino player that he was mentioning on the Joe Rogan podcast. I don't think it was Alex. I can't remember which one right now, however.

de luna

 

[iusedtoberich]

I think Tony is more accurately placed around Bustamante. I can't remember if they've played or not but it would be an interesting match-up. Tony may be slightly more creative and Bustamante may be more consistent.

Consistency is the killer for the one-pocket specialists. Well that coupled with letting less experienced one-pocket players shoot without a shot clock. This nullifies their knowledge advantage as top-tier players can find a shot if given enough time to do so. This stood out years ago when Frost played Orcullo. Dennis would just study the table forever until he figured it out. Scott would come up and instantly know what to do.

It wasn't even close.

I think Busty would have chopped up Tony in both of their Primes. IMO I do believe Busty has done much better over the years at the DCC as well.

I think the only two modern day one pocket specialists have been Tony and Frost. Both of their DCC records don't seem to be nearly as good as 9 ball superstar players who play one hole once per year at the DCC.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I think Tony is more accurately placed around Bustamante. I can't remember if they've played or not but it would be an interesting match-up. Tony may be slightly more creative and Bustamante may be more consistent.

Consistency is the killer for the one-pocket specialists. Well that coupled with letting less experienced one-pocket players shoot without a shot clock. This nullifies their knowledge advantage as top-tier players can find a shot if given enough time to do so. This stood out years ago when Frost played Orcullo. Dennis would just study the table forever until he figured it out. Scott would come up and instantly know what to do.

It wasn't even close.

I had an accu-stats tape in the late 90's of a match between Cornbread Red and I think Bugs (not sure it was Bugs, but if not, it was an older warhorse player for sure). I think the tournament took place in 1992, one of Grady's events. The thing I noticed then, and still remember today, is both those guys got to the table and instantly knew the shot. It was clear they had both played 40 years of one pocket, and knew every possible layout and shot inside and out.

 

[Island Drive]

After all this back/forth.... I personally like the great Ronnie Allen in his prime.
He always blamed his fortune and cue ball placement on whitey, deflecting his good fortune on the cue ball.
No player ever smiled and dished it out when betting high than this man.
He dressed sharp and looked sharp, and never wore a suit.
In the late sixties, I compared his game to the Great Jack Nicklaus.

bm

 

[The_JV]

I think that was another Filipino player that he was mentioning on the Joe Rogan podcast. I don't think it was Alex. I can't remember which one right now, however.

Well I couldn't be happier to be wrong. Not sure why I was lead to believe it was Alex. Seemed out of character...

 

[alphadog]

I had an accu-stats tape in the late 90's of a match between Cornbread Red and I think Bugs (not sure it was Bugs, but if not, it was an older warhorse player for sure). I think the tournament took place in 1992, one of Grady's events. The thing I noticed then, and still remember today, is both those guys got to the table and instantly knew the shot. It was clear they had both played 40 years of one pocket, and knew every possible layout and shot inside and out.

They knew the stock answer. There may have been better options. Watch some of the things Efren did/does. To quote Grady " Now look at that innocuous little shot Efren just made. It didn't look like much but he just turned the game around".