Filler withdrawn from Reyes cup

[sjm]

to be fair, predator too has been caught between a rock and a hard place. did they know when they bought the world 10b rights that WPA was gonna go apeshit a few years later? all because a switcharoo in the asian federation and the belligerent ACBS coming in. they've already suffered an exodus of pro players indirectly because of this.

i would think predator, whether one like their products or not, has done more for pool than any other industry sponsor for the last two decades.

This is very well said. Predator has been placed in a compromising position. Predator is an enormously positive force in pool and deserves better. Like Matchroom, they are investing a lot of money in the furtherance and growth of our sport and seeing obstacles unnecessarily placed in their path cannot possibly serve the best interests of pro pool.

 

[jbart65]

Pure fantasy:

MR could have avoided everything the past 2-3 years this has been going on by simply agreeing to sanction all of their events with the WPA (as they had for many years before). WPA made it quite simple to do so, they even waived the monetary fee per event. The early disclosed sticking point was MR having control of the ranking points.

MR says a firm NO, and the rest is history.

After two years, I still lack full clarity on what the dispute is about.

WPA has been less than truthful. It appears to have been dissembling on several occasions. Sanctioning events when the promoters didn't even ask is but one example.

As such, I am less than trustful.

MR, for its part, has been unusually silent publicly. IMO if the facts are entirely on your side, you make those facts known. So MR's refusal to explain the main sticking points I find inexplicable and inexcusable. It leaves us guessing.

Therefore we speculate.

Let's assume the WPA has actually offered to forego sanctioning fees or remittance of any other kind. What does it want?

Control of the calendar more than anything.

I think all pool-event sponsors need some coordination on annual dates to prevent overlap. That's a good thing.

But controlling the calendar also means choosing which event on which date. Such decisions could be very lucrative - or not - depending on how they are rendered. Vietnam is a great example. The Ho Chi Minh Open vs the Hanoi Open is a new front the WPA opened in its fight with MR.

I suspect MR wants to fully control its own calendar or have first dibs. It's events are the biggest of all in pro pool and take time to organize and produce. MR naturally wants to optimize its revenue.

Who determines ranking points is a also big deal. The WNT imo should have the right to assign points as it sees fit.

Beyond that, I can't think of anything else.

 

[jbart65]

Predator has been placed in a compromising position.

Have they?

Frankly, I have very little idea where Predator stands. The company has also been very quiet the past year.

Predator used to sponsor MR events. The company no longer seems to. Clearly the two companies are or have been at odds over something

Predator is a competitor of sorts of course. It runs 8- and 10-ball championships, but it doesn't want to cede 9-ball entirely to MR.

Ideally the two would join forces, but I see no reason to expect it any time soon.

 

[Oze147]

It has been said many, many times, that this is a MR vs. WPA drama, but is it really?

I mean at least in the case of Filler and Ouschan it is not only WPA or MR.
Filler said before that it is a big myth that he and his wife recieve fundings from their federation.
Albin has boycotted EPBF events for many years.
So both of them have no real reason to fear a WPA ban as they are established WNT pros.

But both of them are Predator players and at least Albin has been pretty open about what it would mean to lose his Predator sponsorship. Even losing a whole tournament for his hometown, which wouldn't only impact himself but impact everything surounding a big pool tournament. From hotels, shuttle services for the players, the booking of the venue for a week and so on and so on.
This a lot of weight to put on a single players shoulders, especially since not Albin but his sister was always the face of those Predator events in Austria.

So in my opinion it is not only the WPA, who is fighting in this story, but Predator quietly pulling the strings in the background.
And this doesn' t only effect Ouschan and Filler but all the players in the second row like Kazakis, He, Lechner...the Polish players, all the young guns from Scandinavia (with the exeption of Krause).
I think most of those don't give a s**t about WPA, EPBF and even their local federations. But getting a Predator event ban, under the cover of being punished by WPA, would strip them from a lot of their yearly income. And eventhough MR is presenting itself as the big player in the pool world, a lot of the players might fear that MR could lose interest and be gone as quickly as they have risen to the top.

On a side note, Predator will be the main sponsor for the EPBF Eurotour in 2025...maybe not a coincidence.

 

[Bella Don't Cry]

Pure fantasy:

MR could have avoided everything the past 2-3 years this has been going on by simply agreeing to sanction all of their events with the WPA (as they had for many years before). WPA made it quite simple to do so, they even waived the monetary fee per event. The early disclosed sticking point was MR having control of the ranking points.

MR says a firm NO, and the rest is history.

The fantasy part:
MR knew all the rest that would follow the firm NO (as we all did) and decided to go forward, specifically for all the media the controversy would result in.

Thoughts? Could this fantasy have been a reality? Did Emily and crew behind closed doors say "we want all the publicity, good or bad"?

No such thing as bad publicity. However, bad publicity can be dealt with poorly.

How good is the team?

At the moment MR just about edge the WPA on this front - but not by far.

That's why MR should just go full tilt and set up it's own governing body, open to all players including those who want to participate in other associations events.

Boxing has many governing bodies and an undisputed champion is rarely recognised. But it doesn't stop the athletes from chasing their dreams or making as much money as they physically can.

The public just want to see and champion the best.

Who cares which association they compete for?

The only thing that matters is...

THE GOAT!

 

[iusedtoberich]

Live now:

 

[Bella Don't Cry]

It has been said many, many times, that this is a MR vs. WPA drama, but is it really?

I mean at least in the case of Filler and Ouschan it is not only WPA or MR.
Filler said before that it is a big myth that he and his wife recieve fundings from their federation.
Albin has boycotted EPBF events for many years.
So both of them have no real reason to fear a WPA ban as they are established WNT pros.

But both of them are Predator players and at least Albin has been pretty open about what it would mean to lose his Predator sponsorship. Even losing a whole tournament for his hometown, which wouldn't only impact himself but impact everything surounding a big pool tournament. From hotels, shuttle services for the players, the booking of the venue for a week and so on and so on.
This a lot of weight to put on a single players shoulders, especially since not Albin but his sister was always the face of those Predator events in Austria.

So in my opinion it is not only the WPA, who is fighting in this story, but Predator quietly pulling the strings in the background.
And this doesn' t only effect Ouschan and Filler but all the players in the second row like Kazakis, He, Lechner...the Polish players, all the young guns from Scandinavia (with the exeption of Krause).
I think most of those don't give a s**t about WPA, EPBF and even their local federations. But getting a Predator event ban, under the cover of being punished by WPA, would strip them from a lot of their yearly income. And eventhough MR is presenting itself as the big player in the pool world, a lot of the players might fear that MR could lose interest and be gone as quickly as they have risen to the top.

On a side note, Predator will be the main sponsor for the EPBF Eurotour in 2025...maybe not a coincidence.

Good post!

The 'P' word certainly are no saints in all of this IMO.

However, they have the right to protect their investments which extends outside of its product ranges.

So what happens next?

 

[sjm]

Have they?

Frankly, I have very little idea where Predator stands. The company has also been very quiet the past year.

Predator used to sponsor MR events. The company no longer seems to. Clearly the two companies are or have been at odds over something

Predator is a competitor of sorts of course. It runs 8- and 10-ball championships, but it doesn't want to cede 9-ball entirely to MR.

Ideally the two would join forces, but I see no reason to expect it any time soon.

Let me explain. Predator is allied with WPA and sponsors many WPA-sanctioned events and is, seemingly, estranged from Matchroom. Predator could hardly have foreseen the cut-throat politics that were to come that are now tending to water down some of the fields in events they sponsor. That makes the events they sponsor less visible, which affects their bottom line.

 

[jbart65]

Let me explain. Predator is allied with WPA and sponsors many WPA-sanctioned events and is, seemingly, estranged from Matchroom. Predator could hardly have foreseen the cut-throat politics that were to come that are now tending to water down some of the fields in events they sponsor. That makes the events they sponsor less visible, which affects their bottom line.

OK, I get that. But Predator has enormous influence and arguably puts as much money into the game as MR.

I would think that Predator could thus influence the direction of the WPA to stop bans. What power does the WPA have, outside of China, if it doesn't have Predator?

Seems Predator has more to lose from WPA bans than MR given the current balance of power.

Which makes me wonder whether Predator is privately supportive, to some extent, of WPA actions that it perceives as hurting Matchroom.

To make it more ... interesting, Predator is having a big event in Puerto Rico that it explicitly said is NOT sanctioned by the WPA.

What is that all about? Some sense of dissatisfaction with the WPA's direction. The first break by Predator?

 

[VVP]

Let me explain. Predator is allied with WPA and sponsors many WPA-sanctioned events and is, seemingly, estranged from Matchroom. Predator could hardly have foreseen the cut-throat politics that were to come that are now tending to water down some of the fields in events they sponsor. That makes the events they sponsor less visible, which affects their bottom line.

Kinda agree with what you are saying. However, I see Predator's involvement in producing/sponsoring pool events as a commercial to generate interest in pool and to get players to buy their products. They are not in it for a TV audience like Matchroom. They seek a players audience.

That said, it would be interesting to see Predator hold invitational events where only Predator players are invited so the money stays in-house. Not sure if this can fly, but more players might seek to get Predator's sponsorship.

I think Predator has sufficient high caliber players to get the average pool player interest. I have spent over $6k in Predator products and will continue to buy its products. I will definitely watch all Predator sponsored or produced events, but not sure how many are like me out there.

By the way, I doubt whether Predator has any interest in encouraging its players to boycott Matchroom's events. That would hinder its commercial interests.

 

[sjm]

OK, I get that. But Predator has enormous influence and arguably puts as much money into the game as MR.

I would think that Predator could thus influence the direction of the WPA to stop bans. What power does the WPA have, outside of China, if it doesn't have Predator?

Seems Predator has more to lose from WPA bans than MR given the current balance of power.

Which makes me wonder whether Predator is privately supportive, to some extent, of WPA actions that it perceives as hurting Matchroom.

To make it more ... interesting, Predator is having a big event in Puerto Rico that it explicitly said is NOT sanctioned by the WPA.

What is that all about? Some sense of dissatisfaction with the WPA's direction. The first break by Predator?

All good points, but don't overlook that all the women's events sponsored by Predator are WPA-sanctioned.

Like you, I'm not having the easiest time sorting through all this mess. The only thing I'm sure of is that the event producers, sponsors, federations and governing bodies are the only ones who can fix pool's toxic environment. The players will remain pawns in the chess game being played by them all.

Like Matchroom, Predator has put its money where its mouth is and shows its commitment to growing our sport. What makes it all so intriguing is that Asia is where the game's greatest growth is occurring and there appears to be a tug-of-war in progress for market share. However, it turns out, I hope it serves the interests of the pro players.

 

[sjm]

Kinda agree with what you are saying. However, I see Predator's involvement in producing/sponsoring pool events as a commercial to generate interest in pool and to get players to buy their products. They are not in it for a TV audience like Matchroom. They seek a players audience.

That said, it would be interesting to see Predator hold invitational events where only Predator players are invited so the money stays in-house. Not sure if this can fly, but more players might seek to get Predator's sponsorship.

I think Predator has sufficient high caliber players to get the average pool player interest. I have spent over $6k in Predator products and will continue to buy its products. I will definitely watch all Predator sponsored or produced events, but not sure how many are like me out there.

By the way, I doubt whether Predator has any interest in encouraging its players to boycott Matchroom's events. That would hinder its commercial interests.

All good points. Predator's business model if very different from that of Matchroom, and its objectives in sponsorship are to keep their products in the limelight. For very different reasons, their role in growing our sport is critical. There is no denying Predator's contribution, but I still view Matchroom as sitting at the helm of pool's worldwide growth.

 

[VVP]

All good points. Predator's business model if very different from that of Matchroom, and its objectives in sponsorship are to keep their products in the limelight. For very different reasons, their role in growing our sport is critical. There is no denying Predator's contribution, but I still view Matchroom as sitting at the helm of pool's worldwide growth.

Agree, Matchroom has the potential to increase the TV audience and hence general interest in the sport, which will in turn increase the payday for the players. Predator has no interest in preventing this from happening. It stands to benefit from Matchroom's success.

 

[sjm]

Agree, Matchroom has the potential to increase the TV audience and hence general interest in the sport, which will in turn increase the payday for the players. Predator has no interest in preventing this from happening. It stands to benefit from Matchroom's success.

Yes, well said, but Matchroom also benefits, as Predator's efforts bring extra attention to the pro game.

 

[jasonlaus]

Back when Daly was the biggest draw in pro golf he was constantly getting fined/sanctioned/suspended for his public antics. He knew the rules going and took it all in stride. His gambling/drinking is what cost him his sweet Callaway endorsement $$ which at the time was in the $2million/yr area.

And they punished him for doing the things that made people watch, sad.

 

[skogstokig]

OK, I get that. But Predator has enormous influence and arguably puts as much money into the game as MR.

I would think that Predator could thus influence the direction of the WPA to stop bans. What power does the WPA have, outside of China, if it doesn't have Predator?

Seems Predator has more to lose from WPA bans than MR given the current balance of power.

Which makes me wonder whether Predator is privately supportive, to some extent, of WPA actions that it perceives as hurting Matchroom.

To make it more ... interesting, Predator is having a big event in Puerto Rico that it explicitly said is NOT sanctioned by the WPA.

What is that all about? Some sense of dissatisfaction with the WPA's direction. The first break by Predator?

i presume their contract for world 10b and world 8b spans over several years, so they have to get along with the WPA. thing is, this WPA is slightly different from the one they signed deals with. the current WPA is focusing on heyball and banning players.. this is hardly in the interest of predator.

just look at https://wpapool.com/

 

[Bella Don't Cry]

Agree, Matchroom has the potential to increase the TV audience and hence general interest in the sport, which will in turn increase the payday for the players. Predator has no interest in preventing this from happening. It stands to benefit from Matchroom's success.

So is it beyond Predator to further it's business and venture into full 'TV' production for the mainstream?

 

[VVP]

So is it beyond Predator to further it's business and venture into full 'TV' production for the mainstream?

I don't think that's in Predator's current business interest. Running a TV production type of business is a beast in itself. I don't think Predator has any interest in being a like-for-like competitor with Matchroom. Predator is more concerned about meeting a broader player audience hence 10 and 8 ball and women 9 ball.

What pisses Predator off is scheduling conflicts because Matchroom seems to have a don't care attitude in working with others on schedules.

 

[sneakynito]

What makes it all so intriguing is that Asia is where the game's greatest growth is occurring and there appears to be a tug-of-war in progress for market share. However, it turns out, I hope it serves the interests of the pro players.

That's interesting. I'm not in the loop there at all. How long has that been happening? And how do you measure growth?
I've been watching a lot more 3 cushion lately, and have also been impressed with how big a presence Predator has there, too.

 

[JAM]

WPA scheduled Qatar World Cup 10-Ball next day after Mosconi Cup (Nov 30-Dec 3)_ ends in Florida. It's a 17-hour flight from USA to Qatar. The beat goes on, and the best goes on.