Finally an Affordable cue Lathe

thanks yes we are right next to scott murphy and muellers and bob meucci
i have 2 lathes for sale one is ready to go and running 1600.00 the other needs a dc motor controller and is $1500.00 thanks lee we are leaving thursday morning due to low turnout i will be in baton rouge for a day then at bob meucci's shop for 2 days then home can always drop off along the way if anyone is intested cue racks sold out more being made next week
 
show was a flop

Back from show we have one machine ready to go $1600.00
on this one only I will pay shipping in the USA only !!!!!!
contact me today if any interest lee
517 639 3190
 
How much for just the deluxe headstock, I already have a bed and all of the other accesories. I just need a big double headstock. Thanks.
 
can you do house cues on this lathe ? clean,repair and retip ?

yes you can you will need a rest to suport the back of the house cue easliy made with wood or metal we are thinking of a tube extention for longer repairs sotime down the road
 
2 thou runout, you don't install the pin.
2 thou runout on the pilot of the pin after installation is not acceptable in most cases.

This is what I would think. When I was learning to build cues from an old dinosaur pal of mine, I had a custom norwela cue a friend gave me. It was a really pretty cue, only thing i didn't like was it played very soft. Well I was in a bar box tournament and broke w/it as usual and snapped it in half about 2-3 inches below the joint on the BUTT. I had just met my friend who built cues, so I asked him if he could fix it, and he did. But what he told me shocked me, you see I thought maybe it was how I broke, that it was sorta my fault. He checked the pin and told me it had been installed "crooked" by like 2-3 thousandths (if i remember correctly) and that caused undue pressure which made the joint fail. So to me I'm definately trying to be way truer than that. SO I am right, right????

Thanks,
Grey Ghost
 
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Ghost,

This is just my opinion, but I don't think a miss-aligned pin will cause any undue pressure on the joint of the cue. Certainly not if we are talking about 2 or 3 thousandths. With that small amount, the faces would still align the butt and shaft very close to straight anyway. Any lateral load caused by a slight miss-alignment would most likely cause the shaft to break before the butt, which is bigger and thicker.

I would suspect that either your cue had a flaw in the forearm of the cue, or somewhere along the way, it was subjected to excessive lateral stress. This excessive stress could have happened right when you broke, or at any time prior. If it was prior, then it was not enough to cause a complete failure, but just enough to crack or break down the grain structure of the wood allowing it to break later.

Just my opinion after 20 years of building cues.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
I'm with Royce on this one.

If we simply look at the tolerances allowed on the threads themselves, we can see that 2-3 thou is nothing. Easy to say that, but here's the reason:

Here are the thread tolerances for 5/16-18 UN 2A class threads because the 5/16-14 is not in any of the books, but likely to follow the 2A or possibly 1A class- not 3A- which has a lower tolerance and would be very difficult to screw together (if machined perfectly- and would need tools for assembly 99% of the time otherwise), assuming both the internal and external are 3A class... Plus 5/16-18 is used by several cue makers, and 3/8-16 threads have even more tolerance on them.

So, with our 5/16-18 example we have a range on major diameter of 0.3113" max OD to 0.3026" min OD, or 0.0087" 'range' to an acceptable 2A class thread. Assuming you are not using worn taps and dies and work carefully, lets hold it at a range of 5 thou (0.005"). Unplated, purchased 2A class threaded items should easily hold this.

Then there's the Inside thread: Max ID is 0.265" and min ID is 0.252", for a range of 13 thou. Lets hold that at 10 thou (0.010") for the sake of this discussion.

Add those together, and we have 15 thousandths (0.015") of 'slop' acceptable to engineering standards for threads.

If your pin is out 0.002" you still have over 10 thou slop in there. Realistically you could be out 0.002" for 3.75 times the diameter (1.1718"), and still be 'straight'. Since we don't have thread engagement for that distance, we are fine; even more so if TIR is 0.002" measured at the END of the pin- you could go another inch longer and still be fine. (plus your threaded rod stock is probably not that straight to begin with anyway- do you put it between centers and verify straightness?)

If you want your pin threads TRULY straight and in alignment with the center of your cue (or whatever), you have to single point them onto a plain rod between centers. That aligns the thread with the centerline of the cue. There is no other absolute way to do it. Those who cut threads into wood for their shaft probably have the best aligned threads in the shaft. However, if the pin is purchased, there is tolerance on it. There has to be. Those who turn their cue on the center of the pin are relying on the pin to be absolutely straight, which it may not be.

Threads should not be relied upon for alignment. They can be (but still a risk), if a 3A class thread is used for both the male and female threads, but it is not good practice, and even so, you STILL have tolerance in those tight 3A threads to allow them to function properly without binding.

In summary, threads are a mechanical connection used to pull the pieces together. A well made pilot keeps things aligned, as well as parallel faces. Having both (parallel and piloted) is the best way in my opinion.

Pics below of a mandrel I made last night. It fits into the butt of the cue and registers on three diameters to hold 'center'. It of course has tolerance on it- 0.002" under the diameters I machine into my butt cap so it slides in without interference (a true slip-fit would be 0.003 under). It is also (single point) threaded; however I deliberately cut those threads undersize so they do not put any side pressure on the mandrel and bring it out of center. They are only there to keep the mandrel from falling out of the cue really...
 

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appreciate the clear up fellas

thanks for clearing that up, makes much sense...It was a very pretty cue, and was descently figured on the forearm...maybe it had just been waiting to happen for awhile like you said.

Thanks again,
Grey Ghost
 
I'm with Royce on this one.

If we simply look at the tolerances allowed on the threads themselves, we can see that 2-3 thou is nothing. Easy to say that, but here's the reason:

Here are the thread tolerances for 5/16-18 UN 2A class threads because the 5/16-14 is not in any of the books, but likely to follow the 2A or possibly 1A class- not 3A- which has a lower tolerance and would be very difficult to screw together (if machined perfectly- and would need tools for assembly 99% of the time otherwise), assuming both the internal and external are 3A class... Plus 5/16-18 is used by several cue makers, and 3/8-16 threads have even more tolerance on them.

So, with our 5/16-18 example we have a range on major diameter of 0.3113" max OD to 0.3026" min OD, or 0.0087" 'range' to an acceptable 2A class thread. Assuming you are not using worn taps and dies and work carefully, lets hold it at a range of 5 thou (0.005"). Unplated, purchased 2A class threaded items should easily hold this.

Then there's the Inside thread: Max ID is 0.265" and min ID is 0.252", for a range of 13 thou. Lets hold that at 10 thou (0.010") for the sake of this discussion.

Add those together, and we have 15 thousandths (0.015") of 'slop' acceptable to engineering standards for threads.

If your pin is out 0.002" you still have over 10 thou slop in there. Realistically you could be out 0.002" for 3.75 times the diameter (1.1718"), and still be 'straight'. Since we don't have thread engagement for that distance, we are fine; even more so if TIR is 0.002" measured at the END of the pin- you could go another inch longer and still be fine. (plus your threaded rod stock is probably not that straight to begin with anyway- do you put it between centers and verify straightness?)

If you want your pin threads TRULY straight and in alignment with the center of your cue (or whatever), you have to single point them onto a plain rod between centers. That aligns the thread with the centerline of the cue. There is no other absolute way to do it. Those who cut threads into wood for their shaft probably have the best aligned threads in the shaft. However, if the pin is purchased, there is tolerance on it. There has to be. Those who turn their cue on the center of the pin are relying on the pin to be absolutely straight, which it may not be.

Threads should not be relied upon for alignment. They can be (but still a risk), if a 3A class thread is used for both the male and female threads, but it is not good practice, and even so, you STILL have tolerance in those tight 3A threads to allow them to function properly without binding.

In summary, threads are a mechanical connection used to pull the pieces together. A well made pilot keeps things aligned, as well as parallel faces. Having both (parallel and piloted) is the best way in my opinion.

Pics below of a mandrel I made last night. It fits into the butt of the cue and registers on three diameters to hold 'center'. It of course has tolerance on it- 0.002" under the diameters I machine into my butt cap so it slides in without interference (a true slip-fit would be 0.003 under). It is also (single point) threaded; however I deliberately cut those threads undersize so they do not put any side pressure on the mandrel and bring it out of center. They are only there to keep the mandrel from falling out of the cue really...

Cool idea, I just Hope you patented your mandrel, otherwise, I can see another thread starting......."just wondering if there's any interest in a ....."
I appreciate your above explaination. I only got lost 2 times:grin:, but it makes sense the way you explained it all. I interpet your post to basically state, and correct me if I'm incorrect, accurate threads are great, but accurate placement of the screw into those threads is more important than super accurate threads in the first place, due to the inherent slop/runout in making threads.
Dave
 
I appreciate your above explanation. I only got lost 2 times


pretty simple to understand if your a cue-maker
 
Hi,

Thanks to Cue Guru, he rocks with his comprehensive explanation of the pin alignment, standards information, and stuff about cutting threads and thread alignment. Makes you think about all of the factors that can compound on you to screw things up if you are not careful.

I have one comment to make. I have spent many of sleepless nights thinking about ways to get my joint to be perfectly concentric on my cue after the machining and finish process.

The best way I have found so far is to install the pin to the best of my ability with the machining process when my cue is still oversize. I then put the cue between centers and finish off the butt taper so that the center line of the cue is running concentric with the centerline of the pin. Then face the butt joint between centers.

If you cut a precision 60 degree relief champfer for the dead center to drive at the shaft joint after you install the shaft treads, then face it, you will have a joint where you only have the sand the shaft joint between centers to match the butt dimension. Having a back chuck that is running true is also very critical. If your shaft is running and seated on the dead center without a rumming effect, then the final dimension sanding should not produce the slight oval phenomenon.

I have not messed around with the sanding mandrels yet but Lee at Brianna has promised to make them for me when he finishes manufacturing my specific pin in stainless steel. At that time I will experiment to see if the sanding mandrels are more precise.

Right now I am pretty happy with the joint concentricity when both the shaft and butt have been finished, sanded, wet sanded and buffed.

Rick Geschrey
 
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I appreciate your above explanation. I only got lost 2 times


pretty simple to understand if your a cue-maker

2-tenths (.0002") is pretty simple to understand also if you're a machinist. Care to re-visit that little diddy?
The claim/statement was made regarding the accuracy of said lathe but when confronted on the issue, it conveniently gets side-stepped.
Any machinist should be able to verify and prove his claims. That is, if his claims are true in the first place.
What you call pot-shots are legitimate questions. All that's required are legitimate answers.
What you state or claim on YOUR web-site is your business. Fact or not, it's your business.
Claims you make here however, are subject be questioned. Given the amount of talent that resides here, blind-faith is a tough sell.
 
Hi,

The best way I have found so far is to install the pin to the best of my ability with the machining process when my cue is still oversize. I then put the cue between centers and finish off the butt taper so that the center line of the cue is running concentric with the centerline of the pin. Then face the butt joint between centers.

Rick Geschrey

Rick,
Turning your final taper off the pin IMO, is not a good idea. If your pin is canted by only a thou. or two, it will be reflected in the off-setting of the base of the pin to the center-line of the cue. Also be mindful that pins can flex. The longer the pin, the greater the flex. If your taper-turning is done without the pin yet installed, you are turning from the center-hole of the cue that you drilled earlier and have depended on up to this point. Accurately installing the pin after the cue is built is not that difficult to do. Then, it doesn't matter if it's canted a thou or two. Too much more than that and it will start to make difference. Food for thought.
 
KJ,

I see your point and respect your description of the canted pin to the center line of the cue and I appreciate your food for thought. When I roll my assembled cues they are true and straight without any wobble flat on a pool table or rolled on the rail. When I started building cues that moment was a real adventure because sometimes it was real ugly.

Whenever I machine a hole and tap it in metal I am always very pleased with the result if I screw in a pin and spin the lathe with an indicator.

It has been my experience that when taping wood the result is not always the same and many times I see some run out. I have glued in pins that had run out and spun the lathe with a marking pen just touching off on the tip of the pin to indicate the high spot. By using a small PVC pipe as a cheater bar I can usually nudge the pin in the right direction to get the desired result. This works but I know that I am distorting the thread or the minor diameter and relying on the glue to save the day in the long run.

Since I have put the pins in before the final taper all has been good with the finished result. On my point cues after I get all the points even and re centered I leave less that .010 per side for my final pass so that there is not a big change in the geometry. On floating point cues I leave about .020 per side because the points won't move.

I guess my question is "do you encounter run out when you install your pins and do you need to push them around from time to time to make them behave"? If not would you share your procedure process for pin installation. I know it has doubtless been mentioned on many threads in Azbilliards archives but I am interested in a way to install a pin without running into any difficulties. If I could install a pin and it came out the same way every time, I would stop doing all this extra final tapering and facing after the pin has been installed.

Thanks,

Rick
 
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lee please send me more info and pricing on the lathe looks cool :grin:
Joe 954 536 9388
 
Lathe

Title says it all!! does shafts, butts, pins,joints, butt caps, make joint caps, install furules do it all.... did we mention very accurate...................
great starter machine, great for pool rooms, league repairs, doing tournys
or just make simple sneaky petes.these are all aluiminim and ground steel beds dc motor with speed control and reverse these are built to last a liftime I have 40 units almost ready to go early october .... pricing to follow the Galveston show WE will have 2 ready to sell at the end of the show.........

Looks like the same headstock thats on a deluxe..
Looks like the same cross slide thats on a deluxe.
Tail stock is different tho..
Is there a rear steady rest with it?
What all comes with the package?
I dunno, But this thing looks like a cut up hightower lathe..
Prolly more accurate too!
good luck Lee
Nice Job
 
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