Forcing the CB off the rail, does inside english help?

[Bob Jewett]

It lowers the back end of the cue. Whether it helps or not, for a variety of reasons, is questionable.

Lou Figueroa

Actually, to get the position the OP is asking about, a little more elevation has a chance to jump up on the nose of the cushion and scoot right across the table. The other "clever" way would be to play cushion first.

You need to hit the ball pretty hard for the simple shot. (If not, for this example, make the shot straighter, so you do need to hit it hard.) I think you're better off without side to complicate things.

In general, using side so you can get more cut angle and still throw the object ball into the pocket is useful only on shorter shots than the one illustrated.

 

[CreeDo]

Another thing I wanted to add is under no circumstances do you want to hit this with left (outside). This completely works against you. I've seen people convince themselves that left spin on the cue ball will somehow make the cue ball go left "harder" or "faster" than center ball would. It doesn't.

When you aim with outside you are throwing it to the right and would therefore hit a little fuller to avoid overcutting it. At very high speed this throw doesn't matter much but since it definitely isn't helping... there's no need to risk it.

The trick I use here is to use a touch of draw rather than touch of side, while aiming carefully to cut as much as you possibly can. The draw will throw the object ball forward (like the side)... and it also sends whitey back a little and decreases the sharpness of cut.

Say you pound equally hard with either shot and only get 18 inches off the rail. I'd definitely like the shot on page 1 better than the shot on page 2.

CueTable Help

 

[Rod]

I don't know if this is the best example, but I'm wondering if english sometimes helps get the CB further off the rail in a forced shot. In this case, would hitting a touch of inside english to set up the 10 in the corner, get the CB off the rail easier than any other shot? You'd have to hit a little lower on the CB to compensate to come off in the correct direction.

If not, what's the best way (besides cheating the pocket) to maximize distance on a forced position shot?

CueTable Help

CueTable Help

Low inside does move the c/b off the rail faster. Inside going forward straightens out the angle but adding low counters that effect. That makes the c/b travel near straight across the table. Of course it depends on how much low but its a shot (like many) you have to develop feel. As shown with the cluster I would shoot it with a little low inside to play shape on the 10. However without the other balls I think high inside is best route.

Shoot the same shot but draw whitey back to the head rail near the opposite corner. Your next object ball is near center table. Using low inside widens the angle and I think makes it easier to play position. How many times have you seen a player use low outside and over run position or get to close to the o/b? Of course it all depends on angle and conditions, so take what the table gives you.

Rod

 

[dr_dave]

Actually, to get the position the OP is asking about, a little more elevation has a chance to jump up on the nose of the cushion and scoot right across the table. The other "clever" way would be to play cushion first.

If people want to see these, with super slow motion playback, here they are:

[URL="http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-30.htm"]NV B.30 - Cue ball position control with nearly straight-in shots[/URL]​

In general, using side so you can get more cut angle and still throw the object ball into the pocket is useful only on shorter shots than the one illustrated.

Agreed. Proof, explanations, and illustrations can be found here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html#hold​

Regards,
Dave

 

[Johnnyt]

Low inside does move the c/b off the rail faster. Inside going forward straightens out the angle but adding low counters that effect. That makes the c/b travel near straight across the table. Of course it depends on how much low but its a shot (like many) you have to develop feel. As shown with the cluster I would shoot it with a little low inside to play shape on the 10. However without the other balls I think high inside is best route.

Shoot the same shot but draw whitey back to the head rail near the opposite corner. Your next object ball is near center table. Using low inside widens the angle and I think makes it easier to play position. How many times have you seen a player use low outside and over run position or get to close to the o/b? Of course it all depends on angle and conditions, so take what the table gives you.

Rod

I agree with all of the above, but the OP wanted to know the best way to come acoss for the 10-ball which I feel is inside with draw with med-soft stroke. One of the reasons I seldom answer these cue table questions is because each player has his own comfortable shot for most shots like this and there are usualy more than one way to play a shot. Also you need to really be at the table to see most shots to really know what you would do in the drawing. Johnnyt

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

Bringing this back to life because...

Watch this shot, and keep watching for the slow motion replay at 43:55 and tell me if he's used some inside for some extra "Ooomph" off the rail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTGMZVben94&feature=related#t=42m45s

From what I see, he's cheated the pocket and applied a touch of inside to get the needed distance off the rail before the draw catches.


Thanks to teedotaj's OP linking this shot up!

 

[smoooothstroke]

the way i see it

The force shot is high left.It looks to me like you don't have to force it though.On the shot shown I think you can get there with low right and a med stroke.The inside english (right) helps to create a bit more of an angle.

 

[jimmyg]

Watch this shot, and keep watching for the slow motion replay at 43:55 and tell me if he's used some inside for some extra "Ooomph" off the rail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTGMZVben94&feature=related#t=42m45s

From what I see, he's cheated the pocket and applied a touch of inside to get the needed distance off the rail before the draw catches.


Thanks to teedotaj's OP linking this shot up!

Yes.

A good player can also do the same with follow. Make the cue ball bounce off the rail to avoid a interferring ball, and then let the follow catch the cloth.

Both great plays that require both the knowledge and the stroke.

As far as using the force shot over adjusting the contact point and using english....a little twist of the wrist timed on the final stroke will throw the cue ball a little harder into the rail and will get you there. Just beware of the rattle. I hate the rattle.

Jim

 

[JoeyA]

Watch this shot, and keep watching for the slow motion replay at 43:55 and tell me if he's used some inside for some extra "Ooomph" off the rail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTGMZVben94&feature=related#t=42m45s

From what I see, he's cheated the pocket and applied a touch of inside to get the needed distance off the rail before the draw catches.


Thanks to teedotaj's OP linking this shot up!

Yes, that's a great shot. It just shows off Django's precision and great stroke.

I like that shot but I don't think there's any side spin there. It's all stroke and a forceful draw, cheating the pocket enough to bounce the cue ball off of the rail and the draw takes effect after the cue ball clears the impeding object ball. It's done with a very light grip, perfect pocket cheating and good draw...

Sometimes, I think we want to believe some shots have some magical mojo is applied or some imagined English, when for most shots, all it is, is location of the cue tip hit on the cue ball, the angle of the cue tip driving into the cue ball and of course the speed that you have the cue moving.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I like that shot but I don't think there's any side spin there. ...

Maybe, but it looks to me like he plays the shot with a little left so the cue ball is moving a little forward off the cushion. That movement delays how quickly the cue ball pulls back so it has time to clear the seven ball.

 

[JoeyA]

Maybe, but it looks to me like he plays the shot with a little left so the cue ball is moving a little forward off the cushion. That movement delays how quickly the cue ball pulls back so it has time to clear the seven ball.

I would almost bet that the cloth was relatively NEW or brand NEW. A lot of the SUPER shots you see on youtube and on match videos are on NEW cloth. You can do some extraordinary things with new cloth as it allows for ball slide that you don't get with old worn cloth.

 

[mullyman]

I hit either one of those medium speed with a little draw. Sorry, there is enough angle there to get to those next positions without any problems.
MULLY

 

[cookie man]

I would almost bet that the cloth was relatively NEW or brand NEW. A lot of the SUPER shots you see on youtube and on match videos are on NEW cloth. You can do some extraordinary things with new cloth as it allows for ball slide that you don't get with old worn cloth.

Did you try it Joey, not that hard to do, just very creative. Ball comes back very nicely.

 

[dr_dave]

Another option depending on the angle of the shot is to elevate the butt of the cue to about 10 degrees or so and shoot the cue ball with nothing but a below center hit. The cue ball will essentially bounce off of the rail with backspin from the slight jump you are imparting to it. Doesnt need to be hit hard to get the desired action on the cue ball.
Chuck

FYI, here's a good video demonstrating this effect:

NV B.26 - Draw shots near a rail, with Tom Ross​

Regards,
Dave