Foul..........Poor Form..........Genius Move?

[Bob Jewett]

The wording is ok in the CSI rules. In fact, it coincides with my earlier post of what should be considered unsportsmanlike conduct.
...

That section of the CSI rules only addresses the specific tactic of intentionally contacting your opponent's ball first. The harder problem is to define in general what unsportsmanlike conduct is. That is done on page 38 of the CSI rules, but I think the WPA rules do a better job with that definition.

At snooker, it is considered to be unsportsmanlike to benefit from a foul, although I don't think the rules actually say that. That of course would outlaw the move of the OP.

 

[BC21]

That section of the CSI rules only addresses the specific tactic of intentionally contacting your opponent's ball first. The harder problem is to define in general what unsportsmanlike conduct is. That is done on page 38 of the CSI rules, but I think the WPA rules do a better job with that definition.

At snooker, it is considered to be unsportsmanlike to benefit from a foul, although I don't think the rules actually say that. That of course would outlaw the move of the OP.

The same section also addresses simply tapping the cb (a push out using a legal stroke) and not contacting an ob, a common 1-pocket move.

And section 38 involves all the common sense stuff that I mentioned earlier. Well, it should be common sense because it's generally all about personal behavior.....cheating, sharking, misleading or disrespecting your opponent or the game, etc...

Snooker is definitely more demanding when it comes to "acceptable" personal behavior. Definitely a classier game than pool, at least in the public eye, but it doesn't have to be that way.

 

[BC21]

In the WPA rules... An intentional foul (like shooting your opponent's ob in or not contacting one of your own first) is not unsportsmanlike conduct, as long as a legal stroke is used and no intentional miscue occurs.

Now we're getting somewhere with the op's original question. Under CSI/BCA, WPA, and APA rules, fouling on purpose to pocket one or more of your opponent's balls, or just to tie them up, is not considered unsportsmanlike conduct. It's just a foul. The only intentional foul that is considered unsportsmanlike is intentionally miscuing.

 

[Bob Jewett]

...The only intentional foul that is considered unsportsmanlike is intentionally miscuing.

I think that's just one that was singled out. Intentionally touching any ball in play (other than by a shot) is unsportsmanlike conduct. Some intentional double hits can also be ruled as unsportsmanlike.

 

[buckshotshoey]

It's been my experience that many refs simply don't know the rules well, and they make lousy calls quite often. So I would guess that the "Director" of refs and rules is just a figurehead position, and he probably doesn't understand the meaning of "unsportsmanlike conduct", so he gave his personal opinion on it. He doesn't write the rules.

Unsportsmanlike conduct would include: Sharking or taunting your opponent, moving balls with your cue using an illegal stroke, physically interfering with your opponent or the balls or the table during play in an effort to gain an advantage (like moving balls on purpose with your hands or stopping a ball while it's in motion), continuing to shoot after your opponent calls a foul, or if there's a 3 foul rule it's unsportsmanlike to ignore it and continue shooting if your opponent gave you the warning when on 2 fouls.

Basically, anything that is considering cheating or sharking or disrespectful to the opponent or game itself is unsportsmanlike conduct. Fouls are not, whether intentional or unintentional. Playing an intentional foul using an illegal stroke, however, is unsportsmanlike. And what's supposed to happen is the player gets warned, then if the same illegal stroke is repeated the player can be disqualified and lose the game/match.

I don't understand why CSI or BCA can't provide a better definition of unsportsmanlike conduct in their rules. Instead, they leave it so ambiguous that nobody really knows what it is.

I'm thinking you didnt read the entire thread. I believe I figured out the misunderstanding in post 56.

I believe he was referring to intentionally contacting an an object ball with the cue tip, and hitting it to a bad spot. That SHOULD be loss of game.

 

[Black-Balled]

My 6 ball is hanging in the lower corner. I am not hooked here.

I could shoot the six, then clip the 7 (without moving the 8), sending my cue ball up to the opposite end rail and leaving my 7 out in space. If I play good speed I might even double up the 7-8 so you are hooked. I'm not winning every game from here, but I like my end of it. And I believe pocketing the 9 is the best play from my original diagram.


Here's another (below). I'm solids. What's my best play?

If I pocket the 5 I'm in trouble. There is no good way to break the 7 or bank it in.

If I roll the 5 towards the pocket then my opponent can use our move and shoot my 5 ball in illegally. I have ball in hand on the 7 and feel like I can't win.

But if I just shoot in their 9 ball and give them ball in hand, what are they going to do? Now I'm in a winning position.

Notice that in this example it's actually such a good move for both players that it has become a race to illegally pocket the opponent's ball. That's how common this is.

Let me know if you'd like more examples. Thanks guys!

View attachment 656341

Come on, man...you know you are shooting the 5 in and getting above the 1 to break the 7 out.

 

[BC21]

I think that's just one that was singled out. Intentionally touching any ball in play (other than by a shot) is unsportsmanlike conduct. Some intentional double hits can also be ruled as unsportsmanlike.

Definitely. I was only referring to intentionally shooting at an opponent's ball. That other stuff is mentioned in most rules also (interfering with or moving balls on purpose). Just about any dishonest behavior could and should be considered unsportsmanlike, and many times it's depending on the referee's discretion.

 

[BC21]

I'm thinking you didnt read the entire thread. I believe I figured out the misunderstanding in post 56.

I believe he was referring to intentionally contacting an an object ball with the cue tip, and hitting it to a bad spot. That SHOULD be loss of game.

Absolutely. But the op's 1st post was questioning the tactic pocketing an opponent's ball, fouling on purpose to gain an advantage or favorable position. Intentionally moving a ball with anything other than the cb, and using a legal stroke, is an unsportsmanlike foul.
It's cheating.

 

[pvc lou]

Here's an interesting scenario where a yellow is trapped between a red and the pocket...the rules are very different, however. I'm watching this now, and have no idea how either Jayson Shaw (reds) or Darren Appleton (yellows) will deal with this situation:

 

[Texas Carom Club]

Come on, man...you know you are shooting the 5 in and getting above the 1 to break the 7 out.

what one ball, thats a 9

 

[BC21]

Here's an interesting scenario where a yellow is trapped between a red and the pocket...the rules are very different, however. I'm watching this now, and have no idea how either Jayson Shaw (reds) or Darren Appleton (yellows) will deal with this situation:

The WPA rules of this game (Blackball) are different than 8ball. Intentionally hitting your opponent's ball first, or intentionally not hitting any ball, is an automatic loss.

What did they do with the situation?

 

[Black-Balled]

what one ball, thats a 9

Unsubscribe!

 

[pvc lou]

The WPA rules of this game (Blackball) are different than 8ball. Intentionally hitting your opponent's ball first, or not intentionally not hitting any ball, is an automatic loss.

What did they do with the situation?

I probably should not have added this video. I don't get the rules. What you say is different from what's on wikipedia, and how they played it out didn't seem to be explained by wikipedia's nor your explanation of the rules.

 

[buckshotshoey]

Absolutely. But the op's 1st post was questioning the tactic pocketing an opponent's ball, fouling on purpose to gain an advantage or favorable position. Intentionally moving a ball with anything other than the cb, and using a legal stroke, is an unsportsmanlike foul.
It's cheating.

The original poster needs to clarify what he meant. I read it as that he meant using the cue ball to sink an opponent's ball therefore purposely fouling. Which should be a strategic shot, not a sportsmanship violation.

 

[Texas Carom Club]

The original poster needs to clarify what he meant. I read it as that he meant using the cue ball to sink an opponent's ball therefore purposely fouling. Which should be a strategic shot, not a sportsmanship violation.

some would see it as a di#k move still either way

i thought he said hes seen it done by using your ball to make one of the opponents in a strategic way
but that he was specifically asking about directly making the other players ball giving bih

 

[BC21]

I probably should not have added this video. I don't get the rules. What you say is different from what's on wikipedia, and how they played it out didn't seem to be explained by wikipedia's nor your explanation of the rules.

I just know the WPA rules for the Blackball game. Not sure what's on Wikipedia. And I don't know what rules they were using in the match.

According to WPA rules, it's loss of game if you intentionally foul by hitting one of your opponent's balls before contacting your own first. With the exception of this intentional foul rule, the game is not much different than regular 8 ball.

 

[pvc lou]

I just know the WPA rules for the Blackball game. Not sure what's on Wikipedia. And I don't know what rules they were using in the match.

According to WPA rules, it's loss of game if you intentionally foul by hitting one of your opponent's balls before contacting your own first. With the exception of this intentional foul rule, the game is not much different than regular 8 ball.

I'll let it go. I don't want to hijack the thread