Free Streaming Bad for Pool?

Free pool streams is like free prescription drugs. Take all the value out of it and you stymie innovation and R&D. Then all the smart money leaves and you get what you had in the former Soviet Union.

Excuse me Comrad how much is the toilet paper. Practically free Comrad but he haven't had any in 28 weeks.

You think that Kobe and Lebron would play one-on-one for free every week on TV? The top players got to stop playing for peanuts. This just drives down their market value. Innovators like TAR will then not be able to fund and make dream match ups happen. Let alone production quality and such. Example free stream of Scott & Alex a couple of weeks ago. Considering what the situation was POVPOOL did the best he could....but:
  • How was the lighting quality?
  • How was the screen resolution?
  • How was the quality of the commentary (and I'm not talking about the swearing)?
  • How was the table quality
  • Production value?

Please don't take this as a condemnation of POVPOOL or any other streamer. It's just a different animal. Kind of like fast food. The pros need to get smart and not give it away and then complain about the state of the sport. And yes I watched it and slammed it in my veins like a junky. A man can't eat at Morton's every day.

Nick
 
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I fail to see the free. All streams have comercials just like broadcast TV. If you are advertizer supported why charge? Isn't it double dipping.
 
JCIN said:
.........The thing is the margins are so razor thin that if just 10% of the PPV audience decides "I'm not gonna pay $15 to watch Busty play this weekend because I saw him free on Tuesday." then thats that.
.........
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Or maybe the free stream introduces new viewers to pro pool who would have never considered a pool ppv before watching the free stream. The free streams could actually be a way of growing potential customers for the ppv.
 
Here at OSPN we offer all who wish to use our network to stream the opportunity to provide whatever bit rate and resolution that want to provide, in any quality, PPV or Free. If they wanted to send a 8mbit/s stream up in 3840x1080 dual screen they could.

To remain profitable does not necessarily require only streaming professionals of our sport. To be profitable requires good sponsorship from those in our industry who receive exclusive monetization of their products and services without being bombarded by foreign advertisements and random commercials distracting the viewership.

There are several scenarios happening in the live billiard streaming agenda, and I'm not specifically targeting any one of them here. In general those who stream to free media outlets forget to consider that they are agreeing to a fine line of verbiage not many understand, nor understand the consequences and circumstances of that verbiage. They come in acronyms such as, TOS and EULA.

I'm not against anyone who is trying to turn a few dollars and for the betterment of the billiard appearance, and displaying this over what means that are fiscally feasible. But to get down to the sauce of this agenda rings a selfish pride and disregard to those involved and others, such as; the players (whether professional/amateur), the sponsors, and the owners of the venue.

It could be mere incompetence of knowing the true outcome, or the "high" experienced when being able to stream well known professional(s), then forgetting that there is fiduciary duty to all involved on the back end. BUT? There is no back end to support the fiduciary duty! The money that is made is barely enough to support the front end, hence the reasoning for PPV.

The old technology of back end support (selling DVD's, Flash Drives, etc) is running out of momentum as delayed gratification is continually spoiled by other industry. Netflix, etc. etc. Of course there are still those die hard purchasers of the content, but it's not enough to support the next wave of billiard enthusiasts! Let alone the illegal and unauthorized duplication of the content, and avenues to rip and upload chunks and pieces up to YouTube and Vimeo hurt the sales of the content also.

Unfortunately, there is no free media outlet that will support the new technology that is produced and changing DAILY. So we continually sell out the content for mere pennies on the dollar, and the jumping with glee, and rubbing in the faces with a idiotic ego trip that they got to stream Reyes, Busti, Kiamco, Beretta, etc,etc, doesn't solve a damn thing either.

I'm done ranting.
 
n0risc said:
Here at OSPN we offer all who wish to use our network to stream the opportunity to provide whatever bit rate and resolution that want to provide, in any quality, PPV or Free. If they wanted to send a 8mbit/s stream up in 3840x1080 dual screen they could.

To remain profitable does not necessarily require only streaming professionals of our sport. To be profitable requires good sponsorship from those in our industry who receive exclusive monetization of their products and services without being bombarded by foreign advertisements and random commercials distracting the viewership.

There are several scenarios happening in the live billiard streaming agenda, and I'm not specifically targeting any one of them here. In general those who stream to free media outlets forget to consider that they are agreeing to a fine line of verbiage not many understand, nor understand the consequences and circumstances of that verbiage. They come in acronyms such as, TOS and EULA.

I'm not against anyone who is trying to turn a few dollars and for the betterment of the billiard appearance, and displaying this over what means that are fiscally feasible. But to get down to the sauce of this agenda rings a selfish pride and disregard to those involved and others, such as; the players (whether professional/amateur), the sponsors, and the owners of the venue.

It could be mere incompetence of knowing the true outcome, or the "high" experienced when being able to stream well known professional(s), then forgetting that there is fiduciary duty to all involved on the back end. BUT? There is no back end to support the fiduciary duty! The money that is made is barely enough to support the front end, hence the reasoning for PPV.

The old technology of back end support (selling DVD's, Flash Drives, etc) is running out of momentum as delayed gratification is continually spoiled by other industry. Netflix, etc. etc. Of course there are still those die hard purchasers of the content, but it's not enough to support the next wave of billiard enthusiasts! Let alone the illegal and unauthorized duplication of the content, and avenues to rip and upload chunks and pieces up to YouTube and Vimeo hurt the sales of the content also.

Unfortunately, there is no free media outlet that will support the new technology that is produced and changing DAILY. So we continually sell out the content for mere pennies on the dollar, and the jumping with glee, and rubbing in the faces with a idiotic ego trip that they got to stream Reyes, Busti, Kiamco, Beretta, etc,etc, doesn't solve a damn thing either.

I'm done ranting.
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Ok. How much will you pay me for my content? Is it more than YouTube? How many advertisers do you have paying you now ?

I don't really care about all the excess verbiage. Show me the money. You sound like someone who has definite ideas about things which is all good. But you are competing essentially with YouTube and Vimeo. What exactly do you offer that is better than what they offer? I don't need a "Workers unite" speech just tell me the facts.

You keep posting on my facebook that you have some magical way to beat bandwidth costs on PPV's. I told you long ago to put a bid together for TAR and have never received anything. We spent $1800 this weekend on bandwidth. Show me you can do better with the level of quality and you can make that money instead of AVW.

Also if you are wanting to present this all powerful pool wide network tell your boy Mike to ditch the little webcam looking at his face overlayed on the streams from the Great Lakes Mixed Doubles 8 Ball Regionals.
 
Hawk said:
Or maybe the free stream introduces new viewers to pro pool who would have never considered a pool ppv before watching the free stream. The free streams could actually be a way of growing potential customers for the ppv.
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You would think it would work that way. I streamed many many hours for free over the years with that in mind. In my experience that has not turned out to be the case.
 
Jerry Forsyth said:
I support all streamers but also see the problems involved with the Free/PPV 'conflict'. While I would love to see both markets thrive and survive I am enough of a realist to know this will not happen.

This is a consumer-driven market. Creative Destruction will run its course and determine the survivors. Some really fine people are going to go down with their dreams. My personal opinion is that the tenacity and the seemingly endless influx of free streamers will harm the PPV's and then when they own the market they will not be able to support their own product and they will go away as well.

The possible savior is the smart TV. If streamers can get a big enough audience then all these problems could go away. But the sand keeps running through the glass and burning cash reserves.
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I think streamers with PPV will benefit if they (someone) come up with a simplified payment means. I think many pool fans aren't computer literate and get intimidated by the whole process of retrieving passwords etc . They get frustrated and you can see them venting on the chat . So watching the free streams are easier for them . I don't offer any solutions , just an observation .
 
JCIN said:
Ok. How much will you pay me for my content? Is it more than YouTube? How many advertisers do you have paying you now ?

I don't really care about all the excess verbiage. Show me the money. You sound like someone who has definite ideas about things which is all good. But you are competing essentially with YouTube and Vimeo. What exactly do you offer that is better than what they offer? I don't need a "Workers unite" speech just tell me the facts.

You keep posting on my facebook that you have some magical way to beat bandwidth costs on PPV's. I told you long ago to put a bid together for TAR and have never received anything. We spent $1800 this weekend on bandwidth. Show me you can do better with the level of quality and you can make that money instead of AVW.

Also if you are wanting to present this all powerful pool wide network tell your boy Mike to ditch the little webcam looking at his face overlayed on the streams from the Great Lakes Mixed Doubles 8 Ball Regionals.
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Justin, I will contact you about using our servers in private...
 
Hawk said:
Or maybe the free stream introduces new viewers to pro pool who would have never considered a pool ppv before watching the free stream. The free streams could actually be a way of growing potential customers for the ppv.
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Ask the porn industry if free content works for them. They used to see the Internet as a holy grail of profit. Now it's driving them under because of all the free tube sites. Just because you have a webcam, tripod and 100W light bulb doesn't make you a producer.

Pros that appear for "free" or virtually free do nothing but cheapen their product and their ability to make money in the future. For me pool is a passion/recreation so it's not my problem. I'm not in the habit of putting out my secret sauce for free.

Nick
 
so gay

easy-e said:
BOOM! Suck it!
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you sir and an idiot and prove this by your 7th grade comment that takes advantage of something that is totally coincidental and not of that which was brought up. I can clearly see that you are just another groupie.
 
Nick B said:
Ask the porn industry if free content works for them. They used to see the Internet as a holy grail of profit. Now it's driving them under because of all the free tube sites. Just because you have a webcam, tripod and 100W light bulb doesn't make you a producer.

Pros that appear for "free" or virtually free do nothing but cheapen their product and their ability to make money in the future. For me pool is a passion/recreation so it's not my problem. I'm not in the habit of putting out my secret sauce for free.

Nick
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Bad example. Youtube brings revenue to independent producers and performers. Pornhub does the same.

In other words, if pool streaming mirrored the internet porn industry, the pro's would be keeping all the money, while the big shot promoters go bankrupt. The difference is porn stars know what they're worth. Pro pool players can't balance a check book.
 
JCIN said:
I have been on both sides of the restricting pros thing. The WPBA had a restriction in place for their players on streams. I disagreed with it because they were not actually providing events for the players to play in while still wanting to restrict them.

What I dont have a problem with is if someone comes along and says "I am starting the American Pool Tour. I will guarantee twelve $25K added events a year for three years. If you play on this tour you will sign a contract stating that you will only play on live streaming media during APT events while the season is underway." If someone does that I am out of business but you know what it would mean there is a legit pool tour and I can find a way to do what I have to do to survive or go do something else. Actually anyone who would come into pool with big money and didnt do that I would consider a fool. The flip side is the money has to really be there or the players will revolt.

The above situation is the only way pro pool will change from the scattered clusterfvck it is today. The good news for people who dont want to lose the random free streams is that I dont see it coming about anytime soon.

We are in a free market and I believe that the market will dictate what survives. I will bet that in two years the landscape is completely different than what it is now. One way or another.

I dont have a problem with free streamers for the most part. I think they provide a valuable service. What is changing is that there are so few pro events anymore all the top guys are playing these $65 entry events or playing "challenge matches" for short money and the free streamers are there putting this stuff out.

Now there is the argument that the higher production quality streams should be able to stand up to the single camera on a tripod in a pool room. The thing is the margins are so razor thin that if just 10% of the PPV audience decides "I'm not gonna pay $15 to watch Busty play this weekend because I saw him free on Tuesday." then thats that.

I dont want it to seem like I'm b!tching or saying free streamers should quit. I am a firm believer in a free market and will do my best to fight to survive in it. This is just a fascinating time in our industry and I enjoy looking at it from all angles and potential outcomes.
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Justin,

I hope you realize that you are on the short list of "Most influential people in Pool." You have stated repeatedly what "someone" should do, or why "that tour" failed.

I'm not trying to be an a$$hole but it seems you enjoy being a rail bird while others try and fail...then you come out with the criticisms. If you are looking for some kind of change, YOU are in the perfect position to make it happen.

Is there anyone that promotes an event better than TAR? Anyone??? Hell, you've got every kid with a camera copying your business model...then you complain that it hurts your business. Maybe it's time for you to step it up to the next level.
 
Simple market equilibrium basics... an abundant supply of quality players playing on free streams means that the value of ppv demand is low.

The same applies for free pool at the local poolroom. Other rooms can't charge enough and room owners focus on drinkers and the pool tables are neglected.
 
For me, Production value goes a long way. I usually don't watch the free streams mainly because it is hard to make myself available and also you see a lot of the matches on Youtube later and can watch them when you want.

However with that being said, recently I have been purchasing the TAR matches. their production quality is fantastic. They have an awesome studio, the take the opinions of the viewing audience for the match (ie, pocket size, and 8ball rules recently). Their stream is pretty much perfect as well and they have some great commentary, not to mention the best players in the world matching up one on one is some really interesting matches (all arounds, best of three sets, etc.).

I just really like the TAR model. I liked it when the DVDs were available and I like it now with the streams as I try to make myself available for as much of the match as possible. Last weekend I was only able to watch about half of each set due to other obligations and I still got my money's worth. I watched a package fest in 8ball, I saw Alex BNR a rack of 1 pocket and JJ's 1 pocket commentary was spot on, and I watched a 10ball clinic put on by Alex... all that from only half of each set. That is sooo worth the money IMO.
 
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7forlife said:
you sir and an idiot and prove this by your 7th grade comment that takes advantage of something that is totally coincidental and not of that which was brought up. I can clearly see that you are just another groupie.
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This is the second time I've seen you call someone an idiot while including a typo in the sentence.

Edited to add: At first I didn't notice that you titled your post "so gay." You have some serious name-calling issues, did you know that?
 
Drew said:
Justin,

I hope you realize that you are on the short list of "Most influential people in Pool." You have stated repeatedly what "someone" should do, or why "that tour" failed.

I'm not trying to be an a$$hole but it seems you enjoy being a rail bird while others try and fail...then you come out with the criticisms. If you are looking for some kind of change, YOU are in the perfect position to make it happen.

Is there anyone that promotes an event better than TAR? Anyone??? Hell, you've got every kid with a camera copying your business model...then you complain that it hurts your business. Maybe it's time for you to step it up to the next level.
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The only tour I have ever weighed in on is the IPT. The only "someone" I have talked about what they should do is Bonus Ball and Galveston. I'm not over here chirping about every person that does anything in pool. I have no plans to ever do tournaments because the model itself is fundamentally flawed. It makes no damn sense. I'm glad others do them but I'm not wasting my time tilting against that windmill.

As to being a rail bird I do more individual events than anyone else in the country. I'm not talking about rolling in with cameras and setting up at a tournament someone else put together I am talking about something I put together from scratch out of nothing. I'm still around. How many of the first annuals have come and gone since TAR started? Maybe I have some idea what the hell I'm talking about? Any dumb ass can take a bunch of money and blow it on a single event never to be heard from again.

Bottom line is that if you give away a product for free people will not pay for it. Right now its a race to the bottom in the streaming industry. I'm not mad at any other streamers I just don't understand what they think they are going to gain by giving away what in the past has been premium content. Porn IS a perfect example. Who the hell pays for porn anymore? You can pick any performer and go find all the product you want for nothing. The market is minuscule compared to what it was. The only thing is that minuscule market of people who will pay for niche, new, high quality content is still pretty damn big meaning the industry keeps grinding.

I'm curious what your idea of the next level is? Big money added events that have 0% chance of self sustaining? No thanks.
 
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The PPV's usually provide something special......

I think the live streams are great. Usually there is not too much commentating if any at all but they are still great.

It gives the local player for sure an opportunity to have all his friends and relatives everywhere to see them in action.

The pay per views like with what Ray Hansen (Big truck) does offer so much more than just pay per view. The commentating is great and he tries to make it entertainment to say the least.

And in order for a professional like Ray to continue to do this he needs to keep gas in the car and a motel roof over his head.

Plus as a player and going to an event that that Ray is streaming adds so much more for the player. When Ray does something it is for sure advertised all over the world and even under the world. If someone doesn't know what Big truck is cooking they got their head in the sand.

Plus I think that the exposure that he gives to the sport really helps get these big purses like at Four Bears.

I felt really bad I had to miss the tourny this year. Anything Ray does is becoming almost a cult following to say the least and it is getting bigger and bigger.

Just look at some of the big names he is helping pull in.

It goes hand in hand. More money and more great tournys.

Common denominator.

Ray Hansen (Big Truck)

I hope we can keep them wheels aroll'in on the Big Truck machine.

One of the best things we got going for us in this pool world.........

I got something cooking that might be going down in about 5 months or less. Ray doesn't know it but he might be heavily involved with this and maybe not.

And it also will be good for pool......

Pay per views are the greatest thing we got going right now in pool.

Affordable for everyone and keeps the truck goin.
 
genomachino said:
I think the live streams are great. Usually there is not too much commentating if any at all but they are still great.

It gives the local player for sure an opportunity to have all his friends and relatives everywhere to see them in action.

The pay per views like with what Ray Hansen (Big truck) does offer so much more than just pay per view. The commentating is great and he tries to make it entertainment to say the least.

And in order for a professional like Ray to continue to do this he needs to keep gas in the car and a motel roof over his head.

Plus as a player and going to an event that that Ray is streaming adds so much more for the player. When Ray does something it is for sure advertised all over the world and even under the world. If someone doesn't know what Big truck is cooking they got their head in the sand.

Plus I think that the exposure that he gives to the sport really helps get these big purses like at Four Bears.

I felt really bad I had to miss the tourny this year. Anything Ray does is becoming almost a cult following to say the least and it is getting bigger and bigger.

Just look at some of the big names he is helping pull in.

It goes hand in hand. More money and more great tournys.

Common denominator.

Ray Hansen (Big Truck)

I hope we can keep them wheels aroll'in on the Big Truck machine.

One of the best things we got going for us in this pool world.........

I got something cooking that might be going down in about 5 months or less. Ray doesn't know it but he might be heavily involved with this and maybe not.

And it also will be good for pool......

Pay per views are the greatest thing we got going right now in pool.

Affordable for everyone and keeps the truck goin.
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What happens to Ray when the tournaments start charging him rights fee's for the content ? Thats the inevitable next step in where the market is going.
 
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