Free tournaments could resurrect pool...

[Slasher]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the game is deceased and like most dead things the only thing that could resurrect it is a divine miracle. Pool is old hat and not very interesting to the younger crowd, to top it off there is no $$ incentive to take it up as a profession
I have been checking the tourny calendars for the last six months and there is nothing within a thousand miles and nothing worth travelling for.
It's to the point now that I will probably take out my table and pack the cues in the closet, it's over.

 

[krupa]

And why internet, Xbox and other stuff thrive? Because they have a much higher number of regular players.

Do you seriously believe that?

Pool is hard and people are lazy. The Internet and video games are popular because they provide instant gratification with minimal effort.

 

[JoeyA]

Everyone's complaining how pool is doing worse and worse. There are less players each year, pool halls keep closing, payouts for professionals are low and so on. There are ways to change the situation. Quite a few ways actually. Still, nobody tried anything radical enough to launch pool back in the mainstream. I have this suggestion... Why owners of pool halls and bar tables wouldn't organize regular free or very-low-fee tournaments for the crowd? The problem is, many people just don't feel like paying so they won't even give the game a shot. If they had the opportunity to play some casual tornaments with friends, see how better players play, feel the joy of winning, I bet some of them would become more serious with the game. I'm not saying owners should stop requiring fees for normal tournaments, but I think it wouldn't hurt so bad to organize them once a week or at least once in two weeks. Combine that with free table time here and there, and there's the potential for pool to rise once again.

Buffalo Billiards in Metairie, Louisiana has a FREE 9 Ball tournament every Tuesday night. They cut it off at 64.

 

[allanpsand]

Getting in the Sports Report

I put this suggestion forward a few years ago.

A weekly sports report in the local paper/advertiser of tournament or league results with a picture or two would be nice.

A weekend TV sports report of three or four minutes would be great publicity.

 

[dr9ball]

Not even close to what pool's problem is. Millions of people PAY to PLAY pool every year.....

Most every pool hall has free pool promotions or at the very least, extremely cheap pool time promotions every week.

Pool problem isn't a shortage of players, but a shortage of paying spectators.

Pool rooms need regular customers, and as of late many rooms are closing due to lack of regular customers. Whether people pay to see a pro tournament isn't going to move the needle for the local pool halls unless they are hosting a bunch of pro tournaments and that doesn't seem very likely. Unless you're suggesting that people should pay to watch amateur's play which is for me at least unlikely to gain an audience.

Pool's problem at the local level is certainly in many areas, a lack of regular customers who play pool and buy food and drink.

Keeping money in the Pro's pocket is all well and good but they are not going to keep the rooms open. Paying customers are what keep pool rooms open by buying food, drink and paying for table time on occasion.

 

[BeiberLvr]

I think this is the wrong approach.

We as individuals and as businesses are constantly sending unintended messages.

Leave a cell phone on during a meeting: you are not as important as the people calling me

glance around the room while someone is talking: I don't find you interesting.

A study in Harvard Business Review found that when a "no littering" sign is put up in an alley that is already littered, the proportion of people who litter INCREASES from 60% to 70%. Somehow the sign must be reinforcing the notion that everybody litters or that others are violating the rule or something like that.

When we charge money for food and charge money for alcohol and give away pool time, we are sending a message--the wrong message--of what is valuable. It's better for pool to charge for the pool and give them free food or drink.

It's not an accident that unfilled hotel rooms, unfilled seats on airplanes, unfilled seats at the concert, etc are not given away cheap at the last minute.

I only said what I said because I've always been under the impression that most halls make the majority of their income from food and drink. So make customers pay for what makes you money, and let them have some free time at the table.

If you get people in the door to play pool, you can keep them at the table by "making" them purchase food and drinks.

Just my theory.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Well then Mike, as being an instructor yourself, how do you feel about offering pool lessons and getting families interested in the game.

I know that personally, you don't have a problem with your room but many others may be struggling.

Its a sport that many kids can learn to like. Just because a kid isn't big enuff to play foot ball or coordinated enuff to catch a base ball, doesn't mean that they should be forgotten about. They can learn to excel at another sport. Maybe pool.

Get people out as a Family unit. I bet there are lots of Moms and Dads that get tired of watching their kids hunker down in their bedrooms playing video games etc.

So, even if you don't agree with my idea, how would you go about the free lessons, tourneys for families etc from your point of view in your hall.

And, I like your ideas, you've obviously studied business strategies. It shows. Rather than give away table time if people make a purchase, offering different specials if people purchase the pool packages.

Better result. If I want to play a little pool and have a couple of beer, which is always and I am feeling a bit hungry, I am most likely to satisfy all my needs all at once over a hall that isn't offering anything that I can't get at another restaurant.

 

[Quesports]

Well then Mike, as being an instructor yourself, how do you feel about offering pool lessons and getting families interested in the game.

I know that personally, you don't have a problem with your room but many others may be struggling.

Its a sport that many kids can learn to like. Just because a kid isn't big enuff to play foot ball or coordinated enuff to catch a base ball, doesn't mean that they should be forgotten about. They can learn to excel at another sport. Maybe pool.

Get people out as a Family unit. I bet there are lots of Moms and Dads that get tired of watching their kids hunker down in their bedrooms playing video games etc.

So, even if you don't agree with my idea, how would you go about the free lessons, tourneys for families etc from your point of view in your hall.

And, I like your ideas, you've obviously studied business strategies. It shows. Rather than give away table time if people make a purchase, offering different specials if people purchase the pool packages.

Better result. If I want to play a little pool and have a couple of beer, which is always and I am feeling a bit hungry, I am most likely to satisfy all my needs all at once over a hall that isn't offering anything that I can't get at another restaurant.

There is lots in the post above that I agree with. It's long been my sentiment that if no younger folks get interested pool halls will cease. I also picked up pool around the age of 14 because I was not big enough to play football or tall enough to play basketball. The idea of getting families out and giving some sort of brief instructional lessons to teenagers is a great idea. Dad & Mom can have some food and a drink while the kids learn to play pool instead of sitting on their butts exercising their thumbs. Guess I'm old but video games seem totally lame to me, you push a button faster than someone else, WOW that's cool. I feel like an endangered species, I'm a pool player!

 

[david(tx)]

Everyone's complaining how pool is doing worse and worse. There are less players each year, pool halls keep closing, payouts for professionals are low and so on. There are ways to change the situation. Quite a few ways actually. Still, nobody tried anything radical enough to launch pool back in the mainstream. I have this suggestion... Why owners of pool halls and bar tables wouldn't organize regular free or very-low-fee tournaments for the crowd? The problem is, many people just don't feel like paying so they won't even give the game a shot. If they had the opportunity to play some casual tornaments with friends, see how better players play, feel the joy of winning, I bet some of them would become more serious with the game. I'm not saying owners should stop requiring fees for normal tournaments, but I think it wouldn't hurt so bad to organize them once a week or at least once in two weeks. Combine that with free table time here and there, and there's the potential for pool to rise once again.

The problem is, many people just don't feel like paying so they won't even give the game a shot.


Wow. I did see that people in the Czech Republic became so conditioned by communism that they were asked to pay a small fee , 1.50 or so when they saw a doctor that all hell broke loose and politicians threw that out . Must be a similar situation in Poland because i see where Polish physicians are moving to Britain and Canada etc .

If you can't afford to play a couple of 5 dollar tournaments a week you should probably stay at home . Some people just hate to lose . The problem could be the race to 1 double elim. held at most bars . Maybe some cheap weekenders or Saturday tournaments with longer races would draw.

I think some people lack the social skills to play pool , but they want too . I've seen race to 1 double elim. weeknite tournies flourish for a week or 2 and then peter out because people get tired of going 2 and out .They spend more on 2 tap beers than on the tourny.

 

[JoeyA]

I'm not so sure about free tournaments resurrecting pool. We have a free Tuesday night tournament for a couple of years now. It's brutal if you think you're going to win every week. Race to 1, DE, 9 Ball, handicapped, get the 8, play even or give the eight. A good crowd almost always shows up.

I'm not a pool room owner and this is just my common sense and observation speaking; but I believe that more people would play pool if they were genuinely appreciated for showing up at the pool rooms.

Pool can be such a solitary thing that some of the social skills that have been lost due to the new technologies, simply make the solitary thing even worse.

If pool room owners want to see their business improved, they need to show consistent, year round appreciation to their customers and that doesn't mean giving anything away.

I hesitate to say what I am about to say because some may think it's egotistical for me to say it but I'm saying it for all of the pool room owners and managers out there and for the lovers of pool in general. There are people who come in our pool room, specifically because I have been kind to them on a regular basis, calling them by name, asking how their game is coming along, interested in their missing but regular playing partners, helping them with their game, etc. The reason I know this is some have actually told me this. I don't spend a great deal of time making sure that everyone's experience is going to be a great one every single day, but maybe we all should be sharing the load of keeping pool alive and well. It doesn't take hours of your time to show a little interest in someone and that is what will keep people coming back, long after the difficulty of pool excellence is realized.

 

[Lock N Load]

Nothing new here. The weekly tournament I play in is only $7, and casual players have no interest in playing. I see many players that are OK (low C or C players) when we ask if they want to play in the tournament for $7 say no. That $7 includes table time till about 11 also if you get knocked out, so basically you have almost a night of pool for less than one hour of regular time. Yet people still do not want to play. Most people are just afraid they will look like idiots against players they don't know, and truthfully, many would against even a B player. There are a few posters here that play with me there, they can tell you that I'm not just blowing smoke, the owner of the room is great to the players, and I have seen him ask people many times if they wanted to play in the tournament, almost never happens. Those new players that do play, usually play ONCE, especially if they lose fast.

Most room owners do not organize the regular tournaments, they are put on by promoters that just reach an agreement with the room owner. I have also seen places where table time was VERY cheap ($8 to play all day and $12 to play all night) and they had to shut down due to no customers.

Buffalo Billiards has a free to enter handicapped tournament 9 ball every Tuesday at 8M. Most of the time it has 64 players in it. And they use to have a free to enter one pocket tournament on Friday. Now a lot of the players on Tuesday night only come for the tournament. You never see them any other time in the pool hall.

The once a month first Saturday of the month tournament is $20.00 to enter, it has a good crowd as well and a Calcutta. A and B players are to enter. A player gives the B player the 8 ball.
Many Regards,
Lock N Load.

 

[RackemBilliards]

Wow. I did see that people in the Czech Republic became so conditioned by communism that they were asked to pay a small fee , 1.50 or so when they saw a doctor that all hell broke loose and politicians threw that out .


I think conditioning is a big part of it. There certainly is a place for specials and something free now and again, but it only has value if it is unexpected and seen as special to the customer. Once it becomes the norm, it becomes part of the level of expectation, and is only noticed as a negative when taken away. We have a free 9-ball tournament on Friday nights-I saw Lock n Load's post about one at Buffalo-and we add $100.00. Some of the players spend money and some don't, like always. We'll do it for a while and then change it to something else.

I actually think a free tournament is a better idea than regular free table time. A player might be willing to pay $10 per hour for time, but they won't if they can get the same thing for $5. And they won't pay $5 if they can get it for free. Human nature suggests that it's unrealistic to expect someone to get something for free at 11:00, and then pay for the exact same thing at 12:00. In a pool room, pool time is the product we're selling. You don't want to condition all of your customers to the idea that your product is worth nothing.

 

[CreeDo]

The trick to any free [whatever] in a business is to be selling other stuff people want to buy.
A lot of pool halls seem to forget that part.

I've seen free pool (with the purchase of $10 of food) work, for a pretty big chain.
They actually offer real food... a sit-down restaurant in front, with full-time waitresses, a big menu, etc.
I've seen the exact same special fall flat in a place that sold nothing but candy, beer,
soda, and hot dogs. They were still making dead on free pool day.

Free tournaments I don't think draw someone to the hall who normally would have gone elsewhere.
It's hard to imagine a casual player saying "hey, instead of going to the bar or club tonight, let's go to that pool hall. They have a free tournament! You don't win anything but we can see some good players!"

 

[naji]

Everyone's complaining how pool is doing worse and worse. There are less players each year, pool halls keep closing, payouts for professionals are low and so on. There are ways to change the situation. Quite a few ways actually. Still, nobody tried anything radical enough to launch pool back in the mainstream. I have this suggestion... Why owners of pool halls and bar tables wouldn't organize regular free or very-low-fee tournaments for the crowd? The problem is, many people just don't feel like paying so they won't even give the game a shot. If they had the opportunity to play some casual tornaments with friends, see how better players play, feel the joy of winning, I bet some of them would become more serious with the game. I'm not saying owners should stop requiring fees for normal tournaments, but I think it wouldn't hurt so bad to organize them once a week or at least once in two weeks. Combine that with free table time here and there, and there's the potential for pool to rise once again.

I disagree that "There are less players each year" , there are much more good players, and much more tournaments to choose from. Pros are rethinking their priorities and avoiding tournaments that the chance of winning is 50/50 and not worth traveling to. Casual players are finding out there are pros all over pool halls all of a sudden! due to internet age and the many instructional material out there.
As far as casual players it is not money, it is time that they cannot afford due to other commitment.

The best way around this is due shoot out tourneys, not games, something like penalty kicks, mix it with card game like poker on the table after shoot out for added luck so pros and regulars have chance to win equally, max tourney hours for 1st place win no more than 2 hrs 3 max.





It is not pool hall hourly fee, or tournament fee money

 

[vapoolplayer]

.................

 

[krupa]

I haven't read the entire thread, has Jude Rosenstock or Paul Schofield chimed in? They're running successful rooms. What are their thoughts?

 

[Lock N Load]

The trick to any free [whatever] in a business is to be selling other stuff people want to buy.
A lot of pool halls seem to forget that part.

I've seen free pool (with the purchase of $10 of food) work, for a pretty big chain.
They actually offer real food... a sit-down restaurant in front, with full-time waitresses, a big menu, etc.
I've seen the exact same special fall flat in a place that sold nothing but candy, beer,
soda, and hot dogs. They were still making dead on free pool day.

Free tournaments I don't think draw someone to the hall who normally would have gone elsewhere.
It's hard to imagine a casual player saying "hey, instead of going to the bar or club tonight, let's go to that pool hall. They have a free tournament! You don't win anything but we can see some good players!"

Hello CreeDo,
The tournament is free to enter. Buffalo puts up the winner and 3 place pay out money. Every week. Full pool hall every Tuesday night at 8M.
Friay night free to enter one pocket tournament. Both are handicapped tournaments. The 9 ball tournament has 64 players every week.
Many Regards,
Lock N Load.

 

[Push&Pool]

Again, pool's problem isn't players. Millions play pool each year.

Most pool halls have plenty of people playing daily, the issue with pool halls is just the business model in general.

They rely on people who must concentrate on what they are doing, to preoccupy themselves with food or alcohol. Its just not a winning business model.

That would be the same as a go cart track relying on alcohol sales to make money. You can't sell a service which requires a ton of concentration, then rely on food an alcohol to pay your bills, the two just don't go together.

This is why bars which either feature live music and dance or dance music sell so much more alcohol......the activities don't require them to concentrate and stay coordinated.

Pool attracts people who love to concentrate and are miticulous. This type of crowd is also something else......cheap. Or at least cheap when they are playing pool. So, raising the table rates will just drive them away.

Pool, in general is a barely break even venture, unless you're one of the lucky few who can turn a profit.

Pool halls shutting down isn't from smaller crowds, as much as it is from a poor business model of relying on alcohol/food sales to make a profit whilst using a high coordination game to attract customers.

(before anyone chimes in with "i see drunk people at the pool hall all the time," that's not the majority of customers)

There are only two things that will make pool itself profitable. 1, raising the table fees. This is why golf courses can operate. Their green fees are much higher than what it costs to play pool.(for the most part) This won't work likely, as people will just stop playing as they are used to lower rates. Pool tends to attract the not so wealthy as well.......or 2, turn pool into a spectator sport. Plenty of people order food/beer while watching other sports, not playing them.(pool will never be a spectator sport in its current form unfortunately.)

I've said many times over, pool is its own worst enemy. Its just one of those games that requires too much coordination to preoccupy yourself with alcohol, but its not enjoyable enough to watch that people will pay for it.

I think you forgot one more major enemy of pool... pride. Every pro and even serious amateurs, especially older players, think that pool is somehow degraded if it gets offered for free while customers pay for food at the same time. I don't know why golf is doing so well but if anyone decides to make pool a pricey elitist sport, it will be the doom of this game. Pool is something people find cheap and easily accessible because the only thing they have to do is go out of their house and walk 5 mins to the nearest bar. Make them pay lots of cash for a single match, or even to watch others play, and they will never think about pool again.

I know most players are cheap and when offered free pool, they'll play the game without ordering anything. So, I guess bars would be better off offering free pool but only if the guests order a drink or some food. And if they keep playing for a long time after they finished their drinks, and there's a line of other players waiting, they'd either have to order again or remove themselves from the table.

Regarding concentration pool requires, I know what you mean. However, only more serious players will try not too drink too much while playing. The majority doesn't care. They drink, play for fun and don't care that much even if they lose. And bars get the most profit out of those guys, after all.

Lastly, owners shouldn't expect the crowd, especially the younger, to go play a low-fee or free tournament at Saturday evening. Such tournaments should be held in the afternoon, maybe Friday and Saturday. They won't attract the crowd all by themselves, but if many people go there to play pool on regular days, then most of them will be interested to watch/participate a tournament like that, even if the rewards are very low. You should also count on some good players who otherwise play better, higher-quality tournaments joining in as well just for fun. Their skills will impress many beginners who will then want to see and learn more.

Wow. I did see that people in the Czech Republic became so conditioned by communism that they were asked to pay a small fee , 1.50 or so when they saw a doctor that all hell broke loose and politicians threw that out .


I think conditioning is a big part of it. There certainly is a place for specials and something free now and again, but it only has value if it is unexpected and seen as special to the customer. Once it becomes the norm, it becomes part of the level of expectation, and is only noticed as a negative when taken away. We have a free 9-ball tournament on Friday nights-I saw Lock n Load's post about one at Buffalo-and we add $100.00. Some of the players spend money and some don't, like always. We'll do it for a while and then change it to something else.

I actually think a free tournament is a better idea than regular free table time. A player might be willing to pay $10 per hour for time, but they won't if they can get the same thing for $5. And they won't pay $5 if they can get it for free. Human nature suggests that it's unrealistic to expect someone to get something for free at 11:00, and then pay for the exact same thing at 12:00. In a pool room, pool time is the product we're selling. You don't want to condition all of your customers to the idea that your product is worth nothing.

10$ per hour? I know Uncle Sam has a much higher standard, but still... In my region we play on coin-ops and it's 0.85$ per game. If each of us pays 2-4 games, we spend 3$ MAX on pool in one evening. I'm not rich but I'm far from poor, and even 3$ is more than enough for me to spend on pool. And when we combine it, we get a few hours of playtime for 8 or 9 $ all together. Paying 10$ for one hour would just be ridiculous and nobody would play anymore.

 

[Ghosst]

The weekly tournament I play in is only $7, and casual players have no interest in playing. I see many players that are OK (low C or C players) when we ask if they want to play in the tournament for $7 say no. That $7 includes table time till about 11 also if you get knocked out, so basically you have almost a night of pool for less than one hour of regular time. Yet people still do not want to play. Most people are just afraid they will look like idiots against players they don't know, and truthfully, many would against even a B player.

Room owners and local tourney TDs should pay attention to this. The bold portion is the problem. The standard retort is, "You'll never get better unless you take a beating like I used to when I was learning". I don't disagree with it if the person you're talking about is a diehard addict. But for a casual player entering a tournament, that attitude doesn't work.

"B" only tournaments here fill the pool hall with all kinds of people. The open tournaments don't have even half the players because there are only 3-4 different names that are going to win and people know it. Pool is very alpha-oriented and it takes a lot of patience for the learning curve required to be a favorite.



.

 

[hang-the-9]

I've said many times over, pool is its own worst enemy. Its just one of those games that requires too much coordination to preoccupy yourself with alcohol, but its not enjoyable enough to watch that people will pay for it.

Actually, watching drunk people try to play pool is very enjoyable :grin: