Getting to the "next level".

[Sore_Aintya]

First off, hello there. Long time reader first time poster.
I have "lurked" here for many years, and used to post on a couple other boards in the past, but have long since forgot my log-ins and passwords.

This might be a bit long winded so go get a drink or hit back page and move on to another thread or just skip to the bottom for the 1.5, so here goes.

I need help. I'm stuck. Been here before and I remember it isn't any fun. I just cant seem to get my game to the next level that I know I can play at, no matter how many hours I put in, practice, read or study, just cant seem to reach it. Let me explain.

I used to play 8-12 hours a day back in '99-2001. Tables 4 or 5 was my home away from home back then at my local pool hall. I would come home from work, shower, have a few choice words with my now ex-wife and head out the door.
I usually played with a friend that was a level or so above me in his game (he managed to make enough from me to buy himself a Schon @5-20 dollars a set). I had free table time as I ran a rather large tournament every there every Sunday so I made the most of it. Looking back I guess I was content with my game then. I still couldn't beat the good players, you know, the guys that where born with a stoke. The guys that just cant seem to miss and when they do its rare form. Convinced myself that I couldn't beat those guys and that I never would and accepted it as that.

Life continues, took about 4 years off, only playing when I went out to the bars, had people over etc.

Well I've since gotten remarried and my new wife encouraged me to get back into playing early last year. Man I totally forgot how much I loved this sport, I also totally forgot how to play.

Fast forward to present day and I'm back to where I was roughly 6 years ago, a decent player that just cant seem to beat the "great" guys. My wife has improved, and I see her improving more and more each week, yet I am in this slump I guess and cant reach the next level.

To let you get a idea as best as possible over the Internet of my ability I am a solid BCA 8, been high 9 many times, but usually stay in the 8 range, and in the APA league we just finished was a 6 (don't want to get started on APA's ranking system).

It was hard work getting back to where I am now because the only person I get to play regularly outside of league is my wife, and we all know that paying someone below your skill level does not help your game in the least. But we play league 3 nights a week as well as playing here at home (we have a Brunswick GC as well as a Valley Cougar bar box).

I don't know what to do outside of playing more people more often, but as I stated, I've done so in the past and it did little to no good in me improving.

I've read everything I could get my hands on, and while it got me re familiar with things I had once known and since forgotten, didn't help.
Instructional videos seem to do more harm then good, as I am convinced everyone has their own mechanics, and someone else telling you how best to hold the stick, stroke etc. is great....if you just started playing and don't already have a stance, stroke etc. embedded.

Not sure what I want here, maybe to vent and see of there is others like me out there, or maybe someone has a magic potion that will get me out of my current state and playing how I know I can... I'll pay top dollar!

At anyrate, what can I do or have you guys done in the past to "get there"? Open to all suggestions and ideas at this point.



1.5~ I'm stuck in my game and need help to the next "level". QQ.

 

[Flex]

First off, IMHO, it's all in your head, those 6 inches between your ears.

You may know how to shoot every shot, but can you shoot those shots and place the cue ball within a 7 inch circle around the table? Not easy, I know. However, setting up reasonably easy shots to pot and then make the cue ball land in a specific place, especially if it's a couple of diamonds or more away, is not so simple. If you work on that sort of stuff, you might well find that your stroke improves, your sensitivity upon hitting or stroking the cue ball gets better, and your game will go up accordingly.

However, you and I know that's not all there is to it. But having that extra little bit of focus that is demanded to pull off those shots has really helped this guy.

Also, try shooting two or three racks of balls straight-pool style using the same kind of english on every shot. When you miss, set the shot back up again and shoot it until it becomes yours.

Shooting the out of the ordinary shots until they become yours will also help.

Whereabouts in Indiana are you located?

Flex

 

[Sore_Aintya]

In my head exactly! Ive known this for years (about this and other subjects lol). Which leads me to the next comment.
I run drills as often as I can handle, but I get bored so easily. Like you said, "its in your head", but practicing solo and/or shooting drills etc bore me to death, even when I set goals for myself, something I need to work on I guess.
I used to do alot of the drills and practice shots from Bert Kinister videos, even then, after a hour or so I was so "burnt out" that I didnt even want to look at my table, let alone make another damn spot shot.

I'm in Central Indiana, hour North of Indy.

 

[Williebetmore]

I've read everything I could get my hands on, and while it got me re familiar with things I had once known and since forgotten, didn't help.

Instructional videos seem to do more harm then good, as I am convinced everyone has their own mechanics, and someone else telling you how best to hold the stick, stroke etc. is great....if you just started playing and don't already have a stance, stroke etc. embedded.

SoreOne,
Many of us have asked ourselves the question of how to get to the next level (whatever that level of play might be). I've asked the question of some top professionals and some top instructors, and the answer is always the same - you need a lesson or lessons. Before you protest, let me explain why you are a perfect candidate.

You are obviously a student of the game with your dedication to practice, home table, and history of studying books and videos. That knowledge is ESSENTIAL in getting to the next level, but not SUFFICIENT.

You also have already paid some dues, and have already learned a ton about the physics of billiards and the strategies of the games - a great head start.

Now for the bad news. If you have played that long without getting to the professional level, there is probably something about your mechanics/basics that is holding you back. Not that there is "One Correct Way" to do things, but there definitely ARE a lot of "Bad Things" that will hold you back. If you are unwilling or reluctant to change, then you can expect only more of the same level. Just playing endless hours is NOT enough for most of us (though I know some pro's that have gotten there like that, but do we really have that kind of time?).

I have spoken to 4 different players who have been #1 in the world at some point, and ALL have had to take lessons/corrections/advice from instructors to get to that last step. If they can benefit from lessons, why can't we???

The last (and often most difficult to find) attribute in a great student of the game, is the willingness to change. If you aren't, then it is unrealistic to assume you can ever get to the next level. You already obviously play well, and improvement at the upper levels is ALWAYS the hardest to make; you might be as far advanced as your mechanics can take you.

Good luck, let me know if you need some names of top instructors.

P.S. - also let me know if you are in Indy and need a "sparring partner." In the words of Garth, "I like to play." (obscure Wayne's World reference)

 

[Flex]

In my head exactly! Ive known this for years (about this and other subjects lol). Which leads me to the next comment.
I run drills as often as I can handle, but I get bored so easily. Like you said, "its in your head", but practicing solo and/or shooting drills etc bore me to death, even when I set goals for myself, something I need to work on I guess.
I used to do alot of the drills and practice shots from Bert Kinister videos, even then, after a hour or so I was so "burnt out" that I didnt even want to look at my table, let alone make another damn spot shot.

I'm in Central Indiana, hour North of Indy.

An hour or so of Bert's stuff will put the hurtin' to your head, that's for sure! But it's worth it!

After that hour, sit down, relax, have a drink or a bite to eat, come back and just run some balls.

Rest a bit, and match up!

Or set up some toughie shots, mark the table with chalk, and figure out more than one way to pot the ball. Shoot it with different amounts of english, or speed, or whatever. Variety is the key to make it interesting.

I have a friend who is a pro, Chicago area, who was shooting a long, very thin cut on a ball. Trying to pot it with outside english, just skimming the object ball, and trying to throw ball into a very tight corner pocket. He shot it like 10 times, and never made it, always hitting it too thick. A fellow I know suggested he try the shot with just a touch of follow, and a hair of inside english. He shoots the shot and over cuts the ball. Gets up and just stares at the guy. And then says to those around him, "Look, this is a case of the teacher learning from the student. There's always something new..."

How far are you from Terre Haute? I have a friend over there who opened a pool hall some months ago. Shoots a good stick, and will match up either cheap or for free, at times.

Let me know.

Flex

 

[Williebetmore]

Just an addendum (I was posting while the above responses were coming in).

Just a minor point of disagreement (more semantics than anything perhaps). I do not believe that the "mental game" will take you to the next level. Of course it is "necessary", but not "sufficient".

We all believe we are capable of making any shot, after all we have made them before and it is nice to believe that "making every shot" is our natural state of ability. Pool however demands an EXTREME level of consistency, and an EXTREME level of precision.

Developing a stroke that is precise, repeatable, and pressure resistant is the absolute essential first step. After that, the "mental game" is the way the pro's keep themselves from falling to a lower level (not getting to the next level) - at least that's what they tell me.

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

practicing solo and/or shooting drills etc bore me to death, even when I set goals for myself, something I need to work on I guess.
I used to do alot of the drills and practice shots from Bert Kinister videos, even then, after a hour or so I was so "burnt out" that I didnt even want to look at my table, let alone make another damn spot shot.

Burning yourself out with ineffective practice sessions probably isn't helping your game. 30-minute practice sessions once or twice day, might be a better approach.

 

[Sore_Aintya]

Where do you play in Indy Willie?
I used to hit Chalkies in Castleton every weekend, but not being able to smoke while I play is a big inconvenience for me, while a huge convenience for the non smokers.

Though I guess with the new no smoking ordinance there's not many places left you are able to.

 

[Williebetmore]

Where do you play in Indy Willie?
I used to hit Chalkies in Castleton every weekend, but not being able to smoke while I play is a big inconvenience for me, while a huge convenience for the non smokers.

Though I guess with the new no smoking ordinance there's not many places left you are able to.

Sore-man,
I usually play in my basement (GCIV double shimmed, plasma tv, bar area, etc.) - it's nicer than most of the pool halls. Unfortunately, my wife would probably take a chainsaw to anyone trying to smoke inside.

I do play 20 weeks a year of straight pool league at Airport Billiards (a little dirty, but LOTS of players hang out there).

Chalkies is nice (I live on northeast side of Indy), but not too many good players hang out there.

You wouldn't be Mike H. would you???? He used to run a Sunday tourney at Chalkies.

 

[rackmsuckr]

I have a friend who is a pro, Chicago area, who was shooting a long, very thin cut on a ball. Trying to pot it with outside english, just skimming the object ball, and trying to throw ball into a very tight corner pocket. He shot it like 10 times, and never made it, always hitting it too thick. A fellow I know suggested he try the shot with just a touch of follow, and a hair of inside english. He shoots the shot and over cuts the ball. Gets up and just stares at the guy. And then says to those around him, "Look, this is a case of the teacher learning from the student. There's always something new..."


Flex

Not to diss the pro or anything, but it seems to me, he should have both shots in his arsenal, depending on where he needs his cueball to go - shooting with outside is going to have whitey running around the table, and shooting with inside is going to stall the ball on a back cut (just the opposite if the cut is a regular cut or going down the rail). IMHO, he should be able to make the shot with both. I do feel I can cut thinner using inside, but it could be I am sometimes just not adjusting my aiming point enough with outside.

He should also be able to shoot with low inside (possibly to avoid balls in the normal path) and draw or follow outside, as well as no english with draw, center and follow.

Getting back on topic, welcome to the forum, Sore! I think going from a 6 to a 7 requires more work on your patterns, playing at least 3 balls ahead... and possibly your speed to maintain your angles on the correct side of a ball. If it takes a teacher to do that, then you may want to take a lesson.

For me, one of the 2 invaluable lessons my husband gave me in the last 15 years , was when he was too lazy to get out of his chair (he was watching a game on the big screen) while I practiced. All he did was point to where I needed to be on the next shot and explained why. More often than not, it was not the route I would have taken.

So, for you to do this on your own, you can do it without hitting a ball in the evaluation phase. If you are playing 9ball, throw out the balls and take BIH on the 1. Now point with your stick where you need to be after the shot with the cueball to get to the 2 to get to the 3 easily. After you make the 1, readjust and point where you need to get on the 3 to make the 4 and so on.

Are you getting to exactly where you pointed? If not, work on your speed and english until you get there. Those shots become your own custom drills. One thing that will help is knowing the tangent line on contact and how you can influence it with english, draw, follow and speed.

Also, take the time to be creative. Instead of going around the table 2 rails, extend the line and see where you can go if you go 4 rails with the CB. Knowledge of the rails is crucial in all pool games, and along with being able to know/alter the tangent line, it is necessary to escape scratches, being able to break out clusters and figure out multiple rail kicks off of balls.

Good luck!

 

[ShootingArts]

a couple of things

It was hard work getting back to where I am now because the only person I get to play regularly outside of league is my wife, and we all know that paying someone below your skill level does not help your game in the least. But we play league 3 nights a week as well as playing here at home (we have a Brunswick GC as well as a Valley Cougar bar box).

First, it is fantastic that you have a table at home and a wife that loves to play too. Explain to her that giving her a generous spot sometimes is necessary to help your game. My spot to recreational players was that I would shoot banks and combinations with them playing normally. That made me work very hard although I still won most of my games. Your game can grow anytime you have to strive to win even against a lesser player. My cuts were already exceptional in that time period, my banking ability and combination skills improved considerably with that spot and I still shoot combinations fairly well.

I am also going to second getting a lesson or two. I have never taken a formal lesson but am in bad need of one or two right now. Even without formal lessons I have beaten my head against a brick wall for months and then had somebody tell me one simple thing or show me one thing and cause me to leap ahead.

There have been a half-dozen sentences spoken to me that have been major turning points in my competitive abilities or my life. Your odds of hearing one of these sentences are much better if you go to an instructor now and then to tune. Finding a good instructor that is right for you is the trick. You want one that corrects faults but does not consider everything not done exactly his way necessarily a fault.

Can you imagine a "cookie cutter" instructor trying to straighten out Efren's game? Even I can see that he makes countless "mistakes." If it wasn't for that minor detail of him being maybe the best in the world shooting his way I could sure tell him a thing or two!

Hu

 

[will8834]

I have been trying to get to the next level for a long time. I have decided lessons is the way to go. Woody in terra haute IN. is a good instructor. In Evansville IN there is a player I have known since I was a kid that started giving lessons. He was living in Alabama and opened a pool school there with another top player. He figured out he was pretty good at teaching pool as well as playing it.
He started off playing pool as a kid with Hubert Cotes .
His name is Bobbi Newboles. If you are near evansville and want to see about getting a lesson I can set it up for you.
Good luck will

 

[JoeyA]

First off, hello there. Long time reader first time poster.
I have "lurked" here for many years, and used to post on a couple other boards in the past, but have long since forgot my log-ins and passwords.

This might be a bit long winded so go get a drink or hit back page and move on to another thread or just skip to the bottom for the 1.5, so here goes.

I need help. I'm stuck. Been here before and I remember it isn't any fun. I just cant seem to get my game to the next level that I know I can play at, no matter how many hours I put in, practice, read or study, just cant seem to reach it. Let me explain.

I used to play 8-12 hours a day back in '99-2001. Tables 4 or 5 was my home away from home back then at my local pool hall. I would come home from work, shower, have a few choice words with my now ex-wife and head out the door.
I usually played with a friend that was a level or so above me in his game (he managed to make enough from me to buy himself a Schon @5-20 dollars a set). I had free table time as I ran a rather large tournament every there every Sunday so I made the most of it. Looking back I guess I was content with my game then. I still couldn't beat the good players, you know, the guys that where born with a stoke. The guys that just cant seem to miss and when they do its rare form. Convinced myself that I couldn't beat those guys and that I never would and accepted it as that.

Life continues, took about 4 years off, only playing when I went out to the bars, had people over etc.

Well I've since gotten remarried and my new wife encouraged me to get back into playing early last year. Man I totally forgot how much I loved this sport, I also totally forgot how to play.

Fast forward to present day and I'm back to where I was roughly 6 years ago, a decent player that just cant seem to beat the "great" guys. My wife has improved, and I see her improving more and more each week, yet I am in this slump I guess and cant reach the next level.

To let you get a idea as best as possible over the Internet of my ability I am a solid BCA 8, been high 9 many times, but usually stay in the 8 range, and in the APA league we just finished was a 6 (don't want to get started on APA's ranking system).

It was hard work getting back to where I am now because the only person I get to play regularly outside of league is my wife, and we all know that paying someone below your skill level does not help your game in the least. But we play league 3 nights a week as well as playing here at home (we have a Brunswick GC as well as a Valley Cougar bar box).

I don't know what to do outside of playing more people more often, but as I stated, I've done so in the past and it did little to no good in me improving.

I've read everything I could get my hands on, and while it got me re familiar with things I had once known and since forgotten, didn't help.
Instructional videos seem to do more harm then good, as I am convinced everyone has their own mechanics, and someone else telling you how best to hold the stick, stroke etc. is great....if you just started playing and don't already have a stance, stroke etc. embedded.

Not sure what I want here, maybe to vent and see of there is others like me out there, or maybe someone has a magic potion that will get me out of my current state and playing how I know I can... I'll pay top dollar!

At anyrate, what can I do or have you guys done in the past to "get there"? Open to all suggestions and ideas at this point.



1.5~ I'm stuck in my game and need help to the next "level". QQ.

Ray Martin gave me a pool lesson and one of the things he repeated often was "There's no such thing as a silver bullet".

However Jerry Briesath did give me a short pool lesson which was more of a critique than anything else although he did try to teach me the proper way to stroke a cue ball . It helped my game a great deal. Take Williebetmore's advice and get a competent instructor who can analyze what you are doing. It could be something very simple that will alter your game but some instructors may be more interested in telling you what they think you need to know rather than what you are doing wrong. IMHO, you have been playing long enough to simply get a critique and then go practice what they say, especially if you see immediate improvement which is what happened to me. Ask some of the top players you know who they have taken lessons from and what did the learn.

How much is that "top dollar" figure?
JoeyA

 

[Colin Colenso]

Sore Aintya,
Without seeing your game or knowing what errors you are making to lose games, it is hard to diagnose the cause of your limitations.

I suspect you can pretty much play 99% of shots that we see the pros playing, but maybe you don't know how to make them all consistantly, with the same degree of accuracy, particularly regarding cue ball positioning. So specific drills could help in that regard.

In my experience, what holds most players back from performing at their own A game is the 6 inches between the ears that Flex refered to. There are a few ways to go about improving this aspect. Including playing with tougher players, entering more tournaments etc until you get used to the pressure. But I think most important is developing your own ability to focus, both in practice and competition.

Being able to focus clearly is a subject that pertains not only to psychology but into metaphysics. It may be the hardest challenge a human can pursue. To investigate it with the attention it deserves would require a post akin to a magnum opus.

The only simple advice I can think of right now is to be completely honest to yourself regarding your weaknesses. Then by identifying them, solutions may be found.

Colin

 

[Scott Lee]

First off, hello there. Long time reader first time poster.
I have "lurked" here for many years, and used to post on a couple other boards in the past, but have long since forgot my log-ins and passwords.

This might be a bit long winded so go get a drink or hit back page and move on to another thread or just skip to the bottom for the 1.5, so here goes.

I need help. I'm stuck. Been here before and I remember it isn't any fun. I just cant seem to get my game to the next level that I know I can play at, no matter how many hours I put in, practice, read or study, just cant seem to reach it. Let me explain.

I used to play 8-12 hours a day back in '99-2001. Tables 4 or 5 was my home away from home back then at my local pool hall. I would come home from work, shower, have a few choice words with my now ex-wife and head out the door.
I usually played with a friend that was a level or so above me in his game (he managed to make enough from me to buy himself a Schon @5-20 dollars a set). I had free table time as I ran a rather large tournament every there every Sunday so I made the most of it. Looking back I guess I was content with my game then. I still couldn't beat the good players, you know, the guys that where born with a stoke. The guys that just cant seem to miss and when they do its rare form. Convinced myself that I couldn't beat those guys and that I never would and accepted it as that.

Life continues, took about 4 years off, only playing when I went out to the bars, had people over etc.

Well I've since gotten remarried and my new wife encouraged me to get back into playing early last year. Man I totally forgot how much I loved this sport, I also totally forgot how to play.

Fast forward to present day and I'm back to where I was roughly 6 years ago, a decent player that just cant seem to beat the "great" guys. My wife has improved, and I see her improving more and more each week, yet I am in this slump I guess and cant reach the next level.

To let you get a idea as best as possible over the Internet of my ability I am a solid BCA 8, been high 9 many times, but usually stay in the 8 range, and in the APA league we just finished was a 6 (don't want to get started on APA's ranking system).

It was hard work getting back to where I am now because the only person I get to play regularly outside of league is my wife, and we all know that paying someone below your skill level does not help your game in the least. But we play league 3 nights a week as well as playing here at home (we have a Brunswick GC as well as a Valley Cougar bar box).

I don't know what to do outside of playing more people more often, but as I stated, I've done so in the past and it did little to no good in me improving.

I've read everything I could get my hands on, and while it got me re familiar with things I had once known and since forgotten, didn't help.
Instructional videos seem to do more harm then good, as I am convinced everyone has their own mechanics, and someone else telling you how best to hold the stick, stroke etc. is great....if you just started playing and don't already have a stance, stroke etc. embedded.

Not sure what I want here, maybe to vent and see of there is others like me out there, or maybe someone has a magic potion that will get me out of my current state and playing how I know I can... I'll pay top dollar!

At anyrate, what can I do or have you guys done in the past to "get there"? Open to all suggestions and ideas at this point.



1.5~ I'm stuck in my game and need help to the next "level". QQ.

If you want a professional instructor who will come work with you on your own table, and guarantee results, PM me...

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Sore_Aintya]

Me and a few friends once had George Breedlove come over show us a few things. Though I'm sure hes not the most qualified person to be giving lessons, he did leave with us learning a couple things.

Private lessons may be in my future I guess, never really gave it much thought honestly.

Wait, that means the wife will want lessons too!

 

[jjinfla]

If you are an APA 6 and a BCA 8 I would venture to guess that you are a C player. Which means that you have a long way to go and a lot to learn.
Understanding that is the first step of improving.

When you were playing with your friend who you claim is a level or two (whatever that means) better than you did he ever stop what you were doing and explain different options? I will bet that all you learned from him is that he is better than you since he kept getting the money.

There is no way you will get any better if you don't know what you have to do to get better and evidently right now you have no clue. So the only recourse you have is to find someone to give you lessons. And then work on what they suggest. And one day it will happen. Everything will come together and everything will seem so easy.

Jake

 

[JoeyInCali]

Me and a few friends once had George Breedlove come over show us a few things. Though I'm sure hes not the most qualified person to be giving lessons, he did leave with us learning a couple things.

Private lessons may be in my future I guess, never really gave it much thought honestly.

Wait, that means the wife will want lessons too!

Keep this whole thing simple.
Hire a pro instructor and let him diagnose your stroke and stance.