grip pressure when using english / side spin

[CJ Wiley]

"IRON WILLIE" is a "side kick" of IRON BYRON?

The experimenters were those plus Mike Shamos, Hans de Jager (former European artistic billiards champion and record holder), and for a few days Walt Harris.

The original grip and bridge of "Iron Willie" were not very good approximations to human mechanics. Because the drive arm was very tightly connected to the butt, the cue behaved as if it weighed several pounds rather than 18-20 ounces. The main problem that causes is that the cue stick does not slow down the right amount when it hits the ball and for spin shots that means that you might have secondary hits or scraping with extreme offsets. Predator has modified Iron Willie since the "Jacksonville Experiment" to be more like people.

Here in Texas we have a golfing robot named "IRON BYRON", is it safe to guess that "IRON WILLIE" is a "side kick" of IRON BYRON that happens to play pool? That's hilarious I'd like to be a "fly on the wall" when these two are talking about similarities :groucho: between golf and pool.

 

[HollyWood]

The Miz taught - firm

grip , with thumb and index finger. on all shots. Many people teach just the grip. but its a tool and if Steve sayes firm grip- I use it? along with follow through. mark he said all the strokes should be the same momentium. Does it make a difference yes!

 

[Matt_24]

grip , with thumb and index finger. on all shots. Many people teach just the grip. but its a tool and if Steve sayes firm grip- I use it? along with follow through. mark he said all the strokes should be the same momentium. Does it make a difference yes!

Really? Miz' stroke seemed so loose and powerful. I think the key is whether loose or firm, that the grip pressure remain CONSISTENT throughout the shot. No tightening at the last minute.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Bob Jewett, Can you please elaborate for us?

OK, but about what, specifically? General elaboration is available here: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html

 

[3RAILKICK]

Bob-many thanks-that is an amazing body of work that you generously make available for reading and study.

You are a prime example of what is right within the pool community. You are a premier teacher and instructor and supporter of the game. AND you can play some. We are lucky to have you around.

Thanks again.

 

[naji]

The cue ball only knows where it got struck, and how hard. It doesn't care what your hand 4 feet away is doing

However when you clench you bring in extra muscles, and these muscles might alter where the stick points or how the arm swings (for example, causing the butt of the cue to move outward, which means the point of the cue moves inward, which would affect where the tip hits the ball).

Generally if you don't need to use extra muscles, you should avoid using them because it just complicates the stroke. And you definitely don't need them to get good action on the cue ball.

Sorry CreeDo, i disagreed with you a while back, but i was dead wrong, and you are 100% right. Apologies.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

I, personally, employ a medium loose grip.
Too tight and it's uncomfortable. Too loose and I slide off and hit myself in the chin.
Wait a minute. Are we talking about the same thing, here? :smile:

 

[CreeDo]

Sorry CreeDo, i disagreed with you a while back, but i was dead wrong, and you are 100% right. Apologies.

Shoot, now I feel bad for teasing you about not releasing the "4000 shots system"
to the public. Well, you don't owe me any apologies, but I might owe you one.
Hope your pool journey continues upward.

 

[allanpsand]

Not only do I agree with Bob, but I think its a bad idea to overthink it. Let your subconscious worry about that stuff. Go with what feels comfortable and just focus on your target. Your subconscious is smarter than you are so don't think about overriding it. I'm only saying this because I used to be guilty of this and other trivial thoughts and it just held me back.

Totally agree both with Bob & Joliet.

Once the stick moves forward it is contacting the CB with the same mass regardless of grip. The only thing a tight grip will do is change the direction of the cue shaft after contact.

 

[naji]

Shoot, now I feel bad for teasing you about not releasing the "4000 shots system"
to the public. Well, you don't owe me any apologies, but I might owe you one.
Hope your pool journey continues upward.

Man! i should have waited.. just kidding, look it is not your fault, ScottK started the B.S. it is ok, and you and others followed the trend in that thread. Just to say couple of things about me besides pool, maybe my English is not the best! I am no dummy, i am registered professional Mechanical Engineer, and hold few certifications, work for one of the top 10 ranked fortune 500 companies. When i am wrong i will be 1st to admit it, you are 100% correct about your post about your grip pressure when using english / side spin.

As far as my 4000 shots system, it is great way to teach pool, but since i do not have any major win on my belt, it might not sell well, the search continues..Apologies accepted.

 

[ScottK]

Man! i should have waited.. just kidding, look it is not your fault, ScottK started the B.S. it is ok, and you and others followed the trend in that thread. Just to say couple of things about me besides pool, maybe my English is not the best! I am no dummy, i am registered professional Mechanical Engineer, and hold few certifications, work for one of the top 10 ranked fortune 500 companies. When i am wrong i will be 1st to admit it, you are 100% correct about your post about your grip pressure when using english / side spin.

As far as my 4000 shots system, it is great way to teach pool, but since i do not have any major win on my belt, it might not sell well, the search continues..Apologies accepted.

Hey, hey now. What I started wasn't BS!

The thing is, you post your opinion as though it is fact, even when you're wrong. You disagree with professionals and people known to be experts on the physics of billiards and defend your position versus theirs as though you know better.

The new guy in the other thread absolutely deserved a heads up regarding your posts because he may take them as fact even though they are incorrect far more often than not, at least from what I've seen.

I do wish your English was better, it might make it far easier to determine exactly where your misconception lie. I do hope, someday, you post something brilliant, however.

 

[ScottK]

Incidentally, naji, when was it you realized you were wrong and decided to come offer CreeDo an apology? And why only CreeDo, why not apologize to Mr. Jewett or anyone else?

 

[naji]

Incidentally, naji, when was it you realized you were wrong and decided to come offer CreeDo an apology? And why only CreeDo, why not apologize to Mr. Jewett or anyone else?

I respect and value every single human regardless of who they are, what color, beliefs, and knowledge they have, you name it; At times i seek answers, at times i ask, i question, other times i give. I consider myself a researcher in the game of pool, having played the game the wrong way for 30 years, i woke up and finally last couple of weeks all came together and know what consistency means under pressure, just like someone trying to find a cure for cancer; so so so many different variables in the game that does one thing, either increase or decrease the error rate of pocketing a particular shot, just like cancer so many unknowns, it does one thing, kill people.
Having said that, those top people are our masters in the field, been there and done that, are they always 100% correct? maybe, do they love to hear from someone that challenges there findings, of course; this is how they got to be good, do they admit mistakes, some do, some do not, but if you go back in time, like i did, they do change their position on some issues and that is quite all right, mainly because they got better over the years, and mainly due to the on- line library "Google" and AZB and the continued research.

Having said that if i am not able to reach same conclusion as someone else's, i question it, until i do my own due diligence and convince myself of the right or wrong. That does not mean they are wrong, but like in law! you are innocent until proven guilty.


ScottK, to be quite honest, before i answered you on that thread, i looked at a lot of your previous posts to see if you have a trend of irregular posts reply to others; you seem to be very reasonable person in all your answers; therefore, i decided to be very respectable to you and did reply to you the way i did. I hope one day we understand each other better. On the English language thing, do you know that my grown sons speak only one language and that is "English" poor them they have to deal with my English all these years.

 

[cleary]

I didn't read though this mumbojumbo but when I shoot a shot with english, I release my cue from my grip hand to avoid unwanted steering through the cueball. (I think that's why). Regardless of why, I do and it's worked better for me.

 

[dr_dave]

1.) LD shafts change deflection, why wouldn't a soft grip as opposed to tight grip do likewise?

2.) After all, the mechanism isn't confined to the cue stick hitting the ball. It's the cue stick and our attached hand, arm and body.

3.)I'll bet, grip / touch will have more affect on deflection than LD shafts themselves.

I get sort of what you're thinking. The stick is designed to give a little and be 'whippy' and flex out of the way when it hits the ball. So maybe your grip allows the rest of the cue to give a little too, and thereby reduce deflection.

Would be interested to hear Dr. Dave's input on this.

My impression is, the whippiness only matters up to a certain point less than halfway down the length of the shaft. Like an OB2 is only hollow up to the first 5 inches or so. And deflection isn't affected by what sort of butt you put on the shaft, assuming the weight is consistent.

So if the bottom half and butt don't matter, probably the grip hand doesn't either.

Again that's all other things being equal. If gripping or relaxing changes the speed of your swing or the location of the tip on the cue ball,
then yeah... different results.

Since you asked for my input, here it is:

1.) LD shafts change deflection, why wouldn't a soft grip as opposed to tight grip do likewise?

The following resource page covers the reasons fairly well:

effects of light vs. tight grip​

The grip has a big effect on the cue during the stroke, but it has practically no effect on the CB during tip contact.

LD shafts create less squirt (CB deflection) only because they have less mass in the 6-8 inches closest to the tip. For more info, see:

low-squirt (AKA low deflection or LD) shaft resource page
shaft enmass resource page​

2.) After all, the mechanism isn't confined to the cue stick hitting the ball. It's the cue stick and our attached hand, arm and body.

The grip hand accelerates the cue on the way to the CB; but during the brief tip contact time, it cannot have any significant effect (see effects of light vs. tight grip).

3.)I'll bet, grip / touch will have more affect on deflection than LD shafts themselves.

That would be a loosing bet, unless the player is using the grip to create wrist twist and cue swoop, in which case the player might think the grip/touch is changing the squirt (CB deflection).

The stick is designed to give a little and be 'whippy' and flex out of the way when it hits the ball. So maybe your grip allows the rest of the cue to give a little too, and thereby reduce deflection.

My impression is, the whippiness only matters up to a certain point less than halfway down the length of the shaft. Like an OB2 is only hollow up to the first 5 inches or so. And deflection isn't affected by what sort of butt you put on the shaft, assuming the weight is consistent.

So if the bottom half and butt don't matter, probably the grip hand doesn't either.

"Whippiness" actually has no direct effect on squirt (CB deflection); although it has an indirect effect. For more info, see:

shaft endmass and stiffness effects​

The grip can have absolutely no effect on squirt (CB deflection). Only the last 6-8 inches of the cue are involved with the dynamics of squirt, so the butt of the cue or grip can have absolutely no effect. For more info and experimental proof, see:

shaft endmass resource page​

Even the bridge hand will typically have absolutely no effect. For more info and video proof, see:

squirt bridge length effects​

Again that's all other things being equal. If gripping or relaxing changes the speed of your swing or the location of the tip on the cue ball, then yeah... different results.

Agreed. What somebody does with their grip, arm, and body during a stroke has a huge impact on the shot, but all that really matters is the speed, tip position, and elevation of the cue at impact with the ball. The type of stroke is immaterial. For more info, see:

stroke "type" and "quality" resource page​

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Physics.

While I'm tempted to stop there, the best example I can think of is Bob Meucci's Myth Destroyer (the ball striking machine he uses to compare deflection among shafts). The machine is designed to replicate the exact same strike on the cue ball every time. Do you think it matters at all how tightly he clamps down the back arm of that machine on the butt of the cue?

My recollection of the Jacksonville Experiments is that it did matter and the guys conducting the experiments had to bubble wrap the grip part of the robot with something like bubble wrap to simulate the give of the flesh of a human hand. I think they used Iron Willie and not the MD.

I also experienced problems with non-human machine grips with the cue-testing machine we built at Colorado State University. We solved the problem by adding silicone rubber to the robot grip.

The problem with a non-human, extremely-firm robot grip is that it can add significant effective weight to the cue. If the grip is totally rigid, the weight of the machine's "hand" and "arm" completely add to the weight of the cue. For example, if you put an 18 oz cue in a rigid machine grip, and the weight of the machine's "grip" is 20 oz, the cue will act like a 38 oz cue! The result of this is that the CB will not leave fast enough to clear the tip with an off-center hit. The tip will either remain in contact with the CB or catch up after initial contact, creating either a push or double hit. The hit will look and sound normal, but the CB will have more squirt (CB deflection) ... sometimes a lot more (as if there where a miscue).

Lot's of care must be taken when using a machine to test and characterize equipment that will be used by non-machine humans.

FYI, information about the squirt-testing robot we developed at Colorado State University, along with a summary of the important test results, can be found here:

squirt robot test results​

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

I believe Dr. Dave found out that LD shafts only reduced deflection about 30% vs. a typical shaft. So, to answer the original question: I don't think the grip will have a significant difference.

We're probably talking like 2-3% not 20-30%.

So, I think a player would do well to just use the grip that works for him and not stress out about deflection.

For people interested, the "30%" number and ramifications are explained here:

"Squirt - Part V: low-squirt cues" (BD, December, 2007)​

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

OK, but about what, specifically? General elaboration is available here: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html

FYI, lot's of info concerning the Jacksonville Project, including links to articles from Bob and Mike, can be found here:

Jacksonville Project resource page​

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[ENGLISH!]

The grip can have absolutely no effect on squirt (CB deflection). Only the last 6-8 inches of the cue are involved with the dynamics of squirt, so the butt of the cue or grip can have absolutely no effect. For more info and experimental proof, see:

shaft endmass resource page​

Regards,
Dave

Dr. Dave, where have you been?

If the above statement regaridng the butt end of the cue in reference to CB squirt is true, can you explain why the squirt would be different in a test like Bob Meucci's when the same shaft was put on different butts. If what you say is true the squirt should be exactly the same. Mr. Muecci even commented on how well the Adam Balabushka butt performed. It was the best with the stock shaft & it was the best with his black dot shaft.

I noticed that that word 'significant' was used in your post regarding other aspects. I think significant is a very subjective term.:wink:

Welcome back,

 

[dr_dave]

Dr. Dave, where have you been?

I've been very busy the last few months trying to finish up my latest pool project that I will be announcing soon. It's been kicking my "butt."

If the above statement regaridng the butt end of the cue in reference to CB squirt is true, can you explain why the squirt would be different in a test like Bob Meucci's when the same shaft was put on different butts. If what you say is true the squirt should be exactly the same. Mr. Muecci even commented on how well the Adam Balabushka butt performed. It was the best with the stock shaft & it was the best with his black dot shaft.

If you have a video or article link, I will check it out.

Regardless, if the butts were different weights, and the machine's "grip" was too rigid, unnoticeable pushes or double hits could have been occurring, which would affect the results.

I thought I remember one of the Meucci videos showing a butt being replaced with a broom stick with absolutely no change in results, but I can't be sure. Hearsay, conjecture, anecdotes, and memory can be dangerous exploits in scientific study ... or in AZB debates.

Regardless, machine test results must be taken with a grain of salt if the experiments were not done very carefully.

I noticed that that word 'significant' was used in your post regarding other aspects. I think significant is a very subjective term.

What I mean by "no significant effect" is: of no practical importance (i.e., barely noticeable, if at all, and of no practical use or importance in game situations).

Welcome back,

Thanks.

Regards,
Dave