Gus On Ebay Fake!!!!!

So I'm getting the idea a little better, but let me go a little further. I get the idea that Barry can look at a cue and know enough to be able to say "No, it's not one of my fathers cues." but is it possible for Barry to look at a cue and say something like "It could be one of my fathers cues, but I can't give a definite yes, therefore I'd have to shy away from giving this one the green light just to be safe."
Once again, I'm not coming to the defense of this particular seller as it seems to me that Barry didn't give any gray area answers regarding this particular cue. I understand that Barry clearly stated that is was not one of his fathers cue.
Sorry to bother so much with my questions, but I've heard so much about well known cuemakers still alive and working today, that sometimes can't be 100% sure of their work from 10-15 years ago. "That sure looks like one of mine" or "It's built the way I make 'em, but I don't remember having burl like that in stock back in 87."
Just curious
dave
 
Tokyo-dave said:
So I'm getting the idea a little better, but let me go a little further. I get the idea that Barry can look at a cue and know enough to be able to say "No, it's not one of my fathers cues." but is it possible for Barry to look at a cue and say something like "It could be one of my fathers cues, but I can't give a definite yes, therefore I'd have to shy away from giving this one the green light just to be safe."
Once again, I'm not coming to the defense of this particular seller as it seems to me that Barry didn't give any gray area answers regarding this particular cue. I understand that Barry clearly stated that is was not one of his fathers cue.
Sorry to bother so much with my questions, but I've heard so much about well known cuemakers still alive and working today, that sometimes can't be 100% sure of their work from 10-15 years ago. "That sure looks like one of mine" or "It's built the way I make 'em, but I don't remember having burl like that in stock back in 87."
Just curious
dave
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He is only human, so surely that is a "possibility". Butt...Even if gus or George realy truly did make a particular cue, once Barry or Pete says they didnt... Then they didnt.
It's got to be pretty hard to fool those guys though! And thank god their around to keep it honest!!
 
The bottom line in something like this comes down to 'assumed' value.

It is really of little importance if a collectable , any collectable , is 'real' or not but rather that it can be proven real in way that validates it's 'assumed' value. If that can't be done in a manner of which the market agrees is acceptable and valid then the assumed value will reflect that with little compromise in most cases.


I'm quite sure that Gus , as ANY craftman in ANY trade has always done from time to time , varied and experimented with different methods. Perhaps even at the request of a buyer. That is what makes these kinds of items so complex. IF you can prove without a doubt that such a variation is truly authentic (say with a picture and proper documentation) then you'd actually have an item of FAR greater value than the norm. If however , as is possible in this case , you can not prove it with such precision , then you unfortunately has a defect in the item that would be subject to a compromise in assumed value.

Oddly enough , and a note to the 'true' collectors and investors out there , this is precisely where the big money is made. In the questionable and hard to verify . . . initially. ;)

This is one of the few places where you can get a true 'deal' with the gamble (if your confident in such) of getting the proper verifications and docs down the line. If that can be done , then you've really got an investment opportuity most will never have.

Anyone can go find a stickered and Doc'd "collectable" , pay market value and hope to gain 1%-2% down the road. But the real joy , for some , is the risk , the gut feeling and the hope of the big gain.

It's all a game , it just depends on what your in it for. :)

In this case it comes down to who do you believe and how much are you willing to gamble on your gut. :D
 
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TATE said:
Greg,

Your tirade against High End Cues is unwarranted. I salute Ken and Ken, High end Cues, for the public service warning. They have become THE Szamboti dealers in my book and are the right people to know for anybody who wants to buy or sell a Szamboti cue.

High End Cues conducts themselves with honor and candor. In fact, I know of a number of incidents where they stood behind their word and guarantees beyond that which would normally be expected.


Chris
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Hi Chris,
As I said in a previous post.. I didn't want to get involved in this thread..
This is Ken Kerner from Highendcues...
I share a booth with Ken Cargano (KC) at Valley Forge..
Most of the cues in that booth are mine..
I don't want to hear talk about dropping any cues on the floor..

Chris, thanks for the nice words of my guarantees..
Best,
Ken Kerner
Highendcues
 
TATE said:
Dave,

We are truly fortunate to have a Barry Szamboti or a Pete Tascarella.

Each of them know what an extreme responsibility they have authenticating a cue. Can you imagine their position when faced with a cue that someone paid many thousands of dollars for that turns out to be a fake?

There are a lot of tiny details that can't be faked. Gus shaped his own joint screws and Barry still has the tools he used to form them, that sort of thing. Gus had certain ways he did things that are small details that are different from other cue makers.

Aniother thing is, Barry helped his dad a lot in the shop, and was involved in his business early on. He made blanks and did a lot of work. Barry is reluctant to commit, one way or another, on authenticity. Gus did make some early cues with WICO and Titlist forearms, but Barry can even ID them.

So if he makes a statement like "it's not one of my dad's cues", well, my belief is it's not.

Is he perfect? Of course not. The real question is, would a serious collector gamble $7,000 on a cue he's says isn't a Szamboti?

Chris
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Tate,

Doesn't Barry have a notebook w/all the notes on each cue construction, why X-ray when you have a ledger?

I do have a huebler H13 from the early eighties that a guy threw a cross at pool hall after loosing a 9ball game and busted it under the joint. I cut it in half end to end and was amazed at the size of the aluminum screw used... I must admit, I have x-ray'd a few cues in my time, just to look at screws between the points and the handles and to see how thick the ivory is.... I can't cut all my cues in half end to end?

I have always been amazed at the different construction techniques of many cues builders and I do agree it is helpful to have a few good people on this forum and the assistance of others like Barry and Pete for assistance in our cue addictions.

Adam
 
toomanybugs said:
Tate,

Doesn't Barry have a notebook w/all the notes on each cue construction, why X-ray when you have a ledger?

I do have a huebler H13 from the early eighties that a guy threw a cross at pool hall after loosing a 9ball game and busted it under the joint. I cut it in half end to end and was amazed at the size of the aluminum screw used... I must admit, I have x-ray'd a few cues in my time, just to look at screws between the points and the handles and to see how thick the ivory is.... I can't cut all my cues in half end to end?

I have always been amazed at the different construction techniques of many cues builders and I do agree it is helpful to have a few good people on this forum and the assistance of others like Barry and Pete for assistance in our cue addictions.

Adam
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You are correct. He has a book which lists the original purchaser with notes. I don't know how thorough it is. It does go back a long way. But there were cues made which cannot necessarily be tracked to the book sale or can't be located unless the original purchaser and approximate date are known.

The fact that he rejected this cue after an x-ray pretty much says it all. It seems to me after what we've heard here, there is no question this cue particular is not a Gus Szamboti.

Don't forget, copies are copies. What if it is a nearly identical copy of the original owners cue? A good forgery can fool the eye, but the x-ray machine is another story.


Chris
 
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kchighendcues said:
As you all can see by his classless post of refering to my mother ...what kind of man he is and to deal with.....I will be sure to forward all you nice words to the people who matter ...Call Me215-300-0361 ..but i see you dont have the B....ls
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I agree this guy went overboard with the reference to your mother and is just lashing out because he was trying to pass a cue that cannot be appropriately authenticated as an original Guz Zamboti off as one based on people owning business and being of high moral character. Although I will spell the word intelligently correctly in my post, unlike in his post where he attacks your intelligence by mispelling the word:o . I will give a very low level base logic unintelligent synopsis on the matter.


IF THE CUE IS NOT AUTHENTICATED AS ORIGINIAL IT SHOULD HAVE NOT BEEN ADVERTISED AS ORIGINAL....END OF STORY!!!!

Also, I went back and reviewed the original EBay posting and in the posting the seller states "This Gus Szamboti is a 4-point cue with original wrap and two original shafts." I would think that if you are going to make this claim it should be accompanied by proper provenance and authentication. The seller conveniently does not mention that the cue could not be appropriately authenticated but does state that the cue is a Gus Szamoti original. Somewhat misleading in my opinion.

I want to thank you for bringing the cue to everyone's attention.

Take Care
-don
 
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In Defense Of Ken Carfagno of Highendcues

I found in my dealings with Ken, he has been totally honest and looking out for both of our interest. His prices are very reasonable. He has even offered to put me in direct contact with a collector when he could not broker the deal. How many Cue Brokers would do that?

As far as the questionable "Gus Szamboti Cue" it looks like a Dale Patten Cue.

Rik
 
1glibby1 said:
For example "kc"..... If i knew your mother had herpes, should I just state this in a way that she is humiliated in front of everyone.....the fact that I know she has herpes is information that, yes, I would like to warn all my friends that your mother may be a whore....with herpes, but to say it like this would not be fair...would it? There are ways of saying things that protect the integrity of this type of forum without attacking someone's charactor. In conclusion........just because your mother has herpes and may be of low moral charactor.....doesn't mean that I can't warn my friends, but i should try and do this without causing her any embarressment at the same time. Your real issue should be.....how do "i" know,... your mom has herpes.

I'm sure your mother is a nice person ......even though.







greg
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THIS GUY NEEDS TO GUY. COMMENTS LIKE THIS ARE NOT NEEDED, OR APPRECIATED.
 
cueaddicts said:
So, what's everybody's opinion on this cue.......Horn or Black ?? I'm leaning towards "Horn-y-boti" myself, but think it would be interesting to see people's thoughts.

Sean (would like to know because there's a super close twin to this cue somewhere in my neck of the woods) :)
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I'M THINKIN HORN
 
like Tate said before.. Gus is well known for making all this own screws and pins.. even if he made a screw different for whatever reason, i am sure somebody that is trained like barry can pick out one of the screws his dad made.. even if it was different, there still would be characteristics of the way Gus made things and Barry knows this..

chris
 
Fantastic job, KC & Highendcues!

You did the entire community a huge service by posting this. My hats off to you.

What had me laughing was the Sellers insistence that his word-of-mouth references by persons unknown carried more weight than the fact that Barry had already REJECTED the cue as a Szamboti.

His auction and post here was VERY misleading. To state that "I don't have a LOA" is one thing, but he tried to have it authenticated and FAILED.

To paraphrase: "Some guy in Maine - that nobody knows - stated it was real, therefore to heck with B Szamboti. The worlds #1 authority - Barry Szamboti himself - examined and X-Rayed the cue and concluded that it was not a Szamboti. But my nameless friend insists that it is, therefore I'll sell it as the real thing".

Jeez.

Kudos to Ken!!

-von
 
1glibby1 said:
I am removing the auction as I have come to the conclusion that my knowing the cue does not hold a letter of authenticty, as well as my lack of disclosure concerning this, is an issue of integrity......

The fact that I did not recognize or elected to diregard something that was indeed a requirement of such a valueble sale, is also of issue.

I apologize for the frustration....it was not my intent.


Check my feedback, consider the value of this sale alone, and you may just understand my frustration.

greg
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Funny how people all the sudden have newfound integrity after they've been busted trying to screw somebody.
Did you really need this thread and it's posters to convince you that what you were doing was morally wrong? Really?
Or maybe you knew it the whole time but now that you've been called on your bullshit you figured now is a good time to get all righteous and do the right thing in order to save face.
Oh, and just in case you don't know it already and you need the board to spell it out for you, it would also be wrong of you to go to KC's booth at Valley Forge and drop a cue on the floor.
-Rob
 
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Thank You all for the kind words ..i do have the xray of the cue and was going ot post them but i think it is not necessary now ...you all have a good day
 
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come on

no come on, post the x ray. i never seen one except of my neck. post it i would love to see it.:)
 
VonRhett said:
Fantastic job, KC & Highendcues!

You did the entire community a huge service by posting this. My hats off to you.

What had me laughing was the Sellers insistence that his word-of-mouth references by persons unknown carried more weight than the fact that Barry had already REJECTED the cue as a Szamboti.

His auction and post here was VERY misleading. To state that "I don't have a LOA" is one thing, but he tried to have it authenticated and FAILED.

To paraphrase: "Some guy in Maine - that nobody knows - stated it was real, therefore to heck with B Szamboti. The worlds #1 authority - Barry Szamboti himself - examined and X-Rayed the cue and concluded that it was not a Szamboti. But my nameless friend insists that it is, therefore I'll sell it as the real thing".

Jeez.

Kudos to Ken!!

-von
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Hey all AZer's
We appreciate all the nice words everyone has shared on the forum.. Just shows there is alot of combined knowledge in here..
It is unfortunate that this cue has been thought to be something it wasn't.. Obviously the last person owning it wouldn't be happy..
We always appreciate Barry's help making sure we aren't the last person...

Sorry about the website not being updated in a while.. Webmaster MIA again..
I have about 40-50 cues I'll be making available soon..
Best,
Ken Kerner
Highendcues
 
cueaddicts said:
So, what's everybody's opinion on this cue.......Horn or Black ?? I'm leaning towards "Horn-y-boti" myself, but think it would be interesting to see people's thoughts.

Sean (would like to know because there's a super close twin to this cue somewhere in my neck of the woods) :)
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black jumped out in my mind the second i saw it
 
I would never guess Richard Black for this cue and I am supposing that the previous owner got the date right and 1972 is too early for RB.

I have not seen RB do ringwork like that (on the joint), even though the points look like his work.

I have also never seen the thin white rings in the phenolic of the joint on a Gus cue. Maybe others know about that.

Disregarding the white rings, I would have said it was a Gus because he did a few cues with that chunky ringwork that doesn't quite match the other ringwork.
 
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