Has the level of play peaked?

measureman

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
All the greatest players in history at their peak probably played about on the same level.
Will there ever be a player that will raise the bar to the next level. A player who will be considered to play above everyone that came before. Or has the game been played as good as it can?
And I bring this up after reading many threads on who was the best and there never seems to be a single player that gets all the votes. Maybe in straight pool it was Mosconi but so many played very close to his speed that he is even open for debate.
I'm talking about a player still to come that plays so far above the standard of great that everyone will agree that this is the best ever.
 
I bet the first human to develop telekinetic abilities will never ever miss a ball. Now will pool still exist and would anyone give a crap when that happens is another question...lol
 
I honestly doubt it. How many videos exist that show Mosconi's true brilliance? Maybe a few examples in the latter part of his career, but videos of him in his prime? I just youtube'd his name and only came up with a handful of videos. More probably exist but are probably hidden away in someone's lucky stash. Therein lies the problem with coming up with the "best" player ever. There is no way to truly compare the great players of the past with the newer players in a conclusive manner. We can only go by what people say about him or her. Sure we can look at videos from the more recent pros such as Efren and Buddy, and probably compare them to each other. And maybe compare their primes with current top players like SVB but thats about it in my opinion. For people who never witnessed the old masters play, like me, cannot really relate them to the current or even future great players.

I for one hope that the level of performance keeps increasing. I've only been shooting pool for about 6 years and am still fairly young at 24. So when people talk about the greatest players to me I can only imagine the names of Efren, Buddy, Earl, etc. I know these players are not in their primes anymore, but can still give the current world beater a run for his money. So when people talk about Mosconi or other champions of his era, my generation honestly has no clue. With no way to really view the older champions in their primes and compare them to this generations players, it seems impossible to even gauge what current level pool is in.

So if you follow that train of thought, even if another great player comes along the future generations won't know where to place him among the greats either. Seems to be a never ending cycle.
 
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Well..,?

I have a different take on it. I dont think anyone has ever domiated pool like Efren. All the champions have had there day, but no one has EVER COME CLOSE TO Eferns total dominance of all disciplines.

He has a Campionship in every game but banks! Not one Championship, but multiple, No one else can say that. 8 Ball, 9 Ball, 10 Ball, One Pocket. 14.1, Rotation, Balk Line and has played all over the world, not just in the USA.

Hands down, he's the best all around player ever!
 
The only way (maybe) that a top player/s will pull away from the other top players is to make the tables much harder for them. There are some good table mechanics out there that could make 10' tables with tight pockets that go if hit perfect. Even then I believe after about a year on them the same 20 players or so will play about the same. Johnnyt
 
Lumocolor said:
I bet the first human to develop telekinetic abilities will never ever miss a ball. Now will pool still exist and would anyone give a crap when that happens is another question...lol
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I have often wondered whether it would actually be easier to play with telekinesis or not? How much more energy would be required to control the ball's as it's rolling?
 
King T said:
I have a different take on it. I dont think anyone has ever domiated pool like Efren. All the champions have had there day, but no one has EVER COME CLOSE TO Eferns total dominance of all disciplines.

He has a Campionship in every game but banks! Not one Championship, but multiple, No one else can say that. 8 Ball, 9 Ball, 10 Ball, One Pocket. 14.1, Rotation, Balk Line and has played all over the world, not just in the USA.

Hands down, he's the best all around player ever!
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I wouldn't say that Efren has showed total dominance in all disciplines. He is definitely world class in all pocket billiard games but is not necessarily the best in all of them if we go by tournament records.

A claim could be made that Alfredo De Oro was the best all around player. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfredo_de_Oro

Of course in the modern age with so many great players and higher runs I'd give it up to Efren as the greatest all-around player.

As to the question of whether we have reached the limit of performance I say no. When I see Shane Van Boeing running seven racks on a table with 4" pockets I know that players have it in them to play at a higher level. Imagine a player who kicked with as much precision as he pockets.

When I see carom players playing pool they have such a mastery of the caroms and kicks and it's clear to me that pool players simply fail to develop those skills to the level that they could. The pocketing ability of snooker players is amazing and if pool players were that consistent then we'd see a higher level of pool.

And at the risk of inviting more controversy I believe that the attention being paid to aiming systems can lead to better play at a high level. Who is to say that in ten years we won't see the fruit of working on something that was pretty much taken for granted previously?
 
King T said:
I have a different take on it. I dont think anyone has ever domiated pool like Efren. All the champions have had there day, but no one has EVER COME CLOSE TO Eferns total dominance of all disciplines.

He has a Campionship in every game but banks! Not one Championship, but multiple, No one else can say that. 8 Ball, 9 Ball, 10 Ball, One Pocket. 14.1, Rotation, Balk Line and has played all over the world, not just in the USA.

Hands down, he's the best all around player ever!
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Their still was one man that beat him into a coma. When he came to the USA the first time and won the big tournament in Texas! I like Efren too. The guy that beat him was a 12 time world champion. And 5 time pool player of the year in the world. I am not knocking Efren either, just telling it like it is.
Many Regards,
Lock N Load.
 
Alfredo de Oro..., oh yea!

Hey JB,

I forgot about Mr de Oro and I agree that he goes down as the most dominate when you look at how long he stayed at the top.

I give Efren the nod, based on current records and gambling and the number of players world wide that he has take on, all comer, all the time.
I have heard that Efren plays a very strong game of 3 Chusion, he says that his Snooker game is just fair, but knowing him, its more than likely strong too.
 
measureman said:
All the greatest players in history at their peak probably played about on the same level.
Will there ever be a player that will raise the bar to the next level. A player who will be considered to play above everyone that came before. Or has the game been played as good as it can?
And I bring this up after reading many threads on who was the best and there never seems to be a single player that gets all the votes. Maybe in straight pool it was Mosconi but so many played very close to his speed that he is even open for debate.
I'm talking about a player still to come that plays so far above the standard of great that everyone will agree that this is the best ever.
Click to expand...

I agree All the greatest players in history at their peak probably played about on the same level. the only difference is their ability to focus on aim and ability to check the check list for each shot accurately and not forget any item. All pool players state of mind vary at a given time. Mixing this with luck then the guessing starts.
To answer the question, i really think SVB is close to being best player ever, if he knows the secret to keep his state of mind the same for each tourney then he is the one (as long as there is no girl friend). Darren A, Efren, Dennis O close but due to age i will set them a side with age group, with age it is harder to control state of mind efficiently every time mainly due to many live issues occupying the mind, wife's, kids, money, the conscious is not totally free
 
King T said:
I have a different take on it. I dont think anyone has ever domiated pool like Efren. All the champions have had there day, but no one has EVER COME CLOSE TO Eferns total dominance of all disciplines.

He has a Campionship in every game but banks! Not one Championship, but multiple, No one else can say that. 8 Ball, 9 Ball, 10 Ball, One Pocket. 14.1, Rotation, Balk Line and has played all over the world, not just in the USA.

Hands down, he's the best all around player ever!
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I suggest you read up on Nick Varner, http://www.nickvarner.com/nickbio.asp, no one beats his records.
 
naji said:
Nick is good player, some of his wins due to stalling the game and his opponents gets frustrated and eventually loose, not as good as pros today break and run all the time.
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Yeah, he's just "good". He only has 8 World Championship titles. He knew how to control the table and his opponent, and win, so, he's only "good". Yeah, ok. World Champion in 14.1,8 ball, 9 ball, banks, and one pocket.
 
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Neil said:
Yeah, he's just "good". He only has 8 World Championship titles. He knew how to control the table and his opponent, and win, so, he's only "good". Yeah, ok. World Champion in 14.1,8 ball, 9 ball, banks, and one pocket.
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Looked at his record since 2000 at AZB, he did win one or two events, but US open he always been above 40th place since, how is his health is he fit to compete still?
 
measureman said:
All the greatest players in history at their peak probably played about on the same level.
Will there ever be a player that will raise the bar to the next level. A player who will be considered to play above everyone that came before. Or has the game been played as good as it can?
And I bring this up after reading many threads on who was the best and there never seems to be a single player that gets all the votes. Maybe in straight pool it was Mosconi but so many played very close to his speed that he is even open for debate.
I'm talking about a player still to come that plays so far above the standard of great that everyone will agree that this is the best ever.
Click to expand...


As the dollars increase so will the level of play. The game of snooker has proven this with quite a few runs in the 140's.
 
Nick Varner will be 65 in May. He is, quite possibly, the best ever American all-around player, and the suggestion that his lack of titles in his fifties should somehow weigh against him is a little hard to fathom. Luther Lassiter is certainly comparable to Varner as an all-around American player with his three consecutive Johnston City All-around titles in the early 1960's, and Shane, if he isn't already, will be in the conversation soon.

As for the original post, I think it raises an interesting question. In most sports, the bar is raised over time because of a) improvements in equipment, b) improvements in instruction, c) improvements in training methods, and d) better informational resources for players. I think that the quality of the resources continues to grow for those trying to reach maximum performance in pool, so my sense is that the level has not peaked.

For the same reasons that this generation of players has more skills than the last, the next will have more skills than the current one. In the end, though, players of all generations have worked hard at their games, and the difference makers will be the equipment manufacturers, the instructors, the training methods and the informational resources.
 
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naji said:
Looked at his record since 2000 at AZB, he did win one or two events, but US open he always been above 40th place since, how is his health is he fit to compete still?
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My mistake, I didn't realize the best ever had to be the best forever. I guess by your reasoning, Mosconi wasn't the best at 14.1 because lately, he can't seem to make a ball.
 
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IMO it depends on which game your speaking of.Kinda of hard to dominate a game that's filled with a lot of lucky rolls.John B.
 
Still for living player you have to hand it to Efren. Efren has won events around the world against the Chinese, the Taiwanese, the Europeans, and in America. He dominated the DCC one pocket event for many years as well as getting the all-around a couple times I think. Efren has had a knack for winning the biggest purses as well, $500,000 at the IPT, $150,000 in Japan (I think), and several others. He beat Earl Strickland in the $100,000 race to 120 after being down nearly 20 games going into the final 40 games. of the match.

None of the players of Efren's generation have been able to match his record on the international and domestic stage except for Strickland in 9 ball and even Strickland hasn't really kept up with Efren since 2002.

You can say that Varner and Hall have lots of world championships but a lot of them were contested in the USA without the rest of the world present. Since the WPA World Championships began in 1990 the American dominated them in the 90s and the past ten years with the exception of Strickland there has not been an American close to the finals unless I am mistaken? In other words the world has caught up the Americans in playing ability. Americans are still respected for the great players that they are but they are no longer feared.

Efren however IS still feared because there simply aren't that many players on planet Earth seeking him out to play big money matches. Maybe when he is 80 the line will form. Right now though only a handful would even try him for any significant amount.
 
JB said it!

I have no problem with Nick, he can paly with anybody, but as JB just said Efren has beat them all for the money and in tournament play all over the world!!

In sports its clear that all records should be measured against open play. By open play I mean any player, anytime, anywhere. Efren is King!
 
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