Has the world gone to flipping?

[Graciocues]

I have nothing against flippers. The flippers I've worked with have become friends and I enjoy working with them. They paid what I asked and made a profit. One sends me 50% of his profit and in no way is obligated to do that.

Flippers are not bad people. Dealers are not bad people. They have their places in the cue market.

The only thing I have against the flipper thing is they don't hit the cues. I don't think test hitting a cue takes away from the value. If I put hours into building and designing with a guy I expect them to hit a few games with it.

As long as the customer plays with it I don't care how long they keep it.

 

[jlrowe]

Lisa hit the nail pretty much on the head when she stated that cue dealers are not flippers because the nature or their business is implied. Flippers on the other hand do not disclose this information. And Jim Lee did not state that a cue dealer is a flipper. It is stated in his first opening sentence. JV you seem offended in some way and try to make cuemakers seem stupid. I don't understand why. You are representing yourself as a dealer which is fine. Dealers usually deal with certain makers that are in demand and dont have to hype their cues up like flippers do. But 30-35% that is crazy, there is no way a custom cuemaker producing a low volume can get a ROI. Unless he inflates his prices drastically, which will not work unless his cues are in high demand. Basically there are flippers with different intentions. One good and one not so good. How can you say his cues are inferior to another well know cuemaker. You would have to be a cuemaker yourself and disect the construction of the two cues and determine which is better. Jims construction methods may be better than Southwest. Yes, some of these high end cuemakers have a reputation but for the wrong reasons. I have shot with Jim's cues and I've shot with Southwest cues. As a player yes i would flip the Southwest and put the cash in my pocket and go to the pool room and play with Jim's cue. I dont find it feasible to spend the extra thousands to get the same or less results. This is coming from a players standpoint.

 

[classiccues]

Lisa hit the nail pretty much on the head when she stated that cue dealers are not flippers because the nature or their business is implied. Flippers on the other hand do not disclose this information. And Jim Lee did not state that a cue dealer is a flipper. It is stated in his first opening sentence. JV you seem offended in some way and try to make cuemakers seem stupid. I don't understand why. You are representing yourself as a dealer which is fine. Dealers usually deal with certain makers that are in demand and dont have to hype their cues up like flippers do. But 30-35% that is crazy, there is no way a custom cuemaker producing a low volume can get a ROI. Unless he inflates his prices drastically, which will not work unless his cues are in high demand. Basically there are flippers with different intentions. One good and one not so good. How can you say his cues are inferior to another well know cuemaker. You would have to be a cuemaker yourself and disect the construction of the two cues and determine which is better. Jims construction methods may be better than Southwest. Yes, some of these high end cuemakers have a reputation but for the wrong reasons. I have shot with Jim's cues and I've shot with Southwest cues. As a player yes i would flip the Southwest and put the cash in my pocket and go to the pool room and play with Jim's cue. I dont find it feasible to spend the extra thousands to get the same or less results. This is coming from a players standpoint.

Not making anyone seem stupid. BUT you can't complain about %'s and discounts if you AGREE to them beforehand. No one twisted Jim's or any other cuemakers arm to agree to terms with a flipper or dealer.

I don't feel 30 -35% is outta line if the guy is a newbie. When you factor in the fact that now he has to be promoted, a dealer may sit on his cues for a lot longer than he would someone elses. There are a lot of other factors involved and it comes down to business philosophy. ( I would get into what really works as an agreement but it might be to much honesty for some people to handle)

You don't have to be a cuemaker to spot quality. That can all be seen from the outside. Internally, even a good cuemaker won't know if another cuemakers work unless they have x-ray vision, or rip it a part in the lathe. No where did I say his work was inferior. But that is what a dealer must contend with when deciding to add someone to their inventory.

JV

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Not making anyone seem stupid. BUT you can't complain about %'s and discounts if you AGREE to them beforehand. No one twisted Jim's or any other cuemakers arm to agree to terms with a flipper or dealer.

I don't feel 30 -35% is outta line if the guy is a newbie. When you factor in the fact that now he has to be promoted, a dealer may sit on his cues for a lot longer than he would someone elses. There are a lot of other factors involved and it comes down to business philosophy. ( I would get into what really works as an agreement but it might be to much honesty for some people to handle)

You don't have to be a cuemaker to spot quality. That can all be seen from the outside. Internally, even a good cuemaker won't know if another cuemakers work unless they have x-ray vision, or rip it a part in the lathe. No where did I say his work was inferior. But that is what a dealer must contend with when deciding to add someone to their inventory.

JV

I also do not think you need divulge your PERSONAL BUSINESS DEALING with any Cuemaker who work you REPRESENT, or I and or other BUYERS will EXPECT THE SAME DISCOUNTS.

A New Cuemaker can benefit from a DEALER who is well established, but the Dealer need not take advantage of the NEW Cuemaker just because he or she is NEW, If they want to keep a long term relationship.

JMHO.

 

[classiccues]

I also do not think you need divulge your PERSONAL BUSINESS DEALING with any Cuemaker who work you REPRESENT, or I and or other BUYERS will EXPECT THE SAME DISCOUNTS.

A New Cuemaker can benefit from a DEALER who is well established, but the Dealer need not take advantage of the NEW Cuemaker just because he or she is NEW, If they want to keep a long term relationship.

JMHO.

Nothing here has been divulged. We are talking hypotheticals and ideas. If you don't buy in quantity, you should not expect discounts. So that's that.

Dealings are a 2 way street, as I said numerous times that the final deal is usually agreed upon. That means that the dealer / cuemaker are both good with it. This is the way it works in all walks of resale, period.

JV

 

[or1pkt]

Jim Lee is right...simple as that... bicker and argue all you want but jim's op is dead on most people posting in this thread dont have the equipment to install a tip let alone the know how to do it so there are two types of people arguing in this thread.... collectors/flippers and a legitimate cue builder (s) so collect and flip all you want...but there is still a hell of alot of guys out there building great cues that get no recognition because they are more concerned with building a quality cue instead of trying to look cool ond be in certain cliques....imho

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

but there is still a hell of alot of guys out there building great cues that get no recognition because they are more concerned with building a quality cue instead of trying to look cool ond be in certain cliques....imho

The list is long of the Cuemakers who as you say are not in a cliques, or in vogue, but still make a great Cue that you don't have to wait a DECADE FOR! JMHO.

 

[qbilder]

A builder makes a deal with a dealer. 30% is pretty standard. The builder's job is to build cues and focus his attention & time on building cues as well as he can build. The dealer, for his 30% cut, handles all of the marketing, advertising, selling, etc. He handles all of the people person stuff that many of us builders aren't so great at. I'm not a good salesman, nor am I fond of constantly having to smile & be nice for everybody every day so folks like me enough to buy my product. The dealer is. Him dealing my product allows me the opportunity to do what I do best, build cues. He does what he does best, sells cues. We both win. We're both happy. Who's flipping? What's to complain about? I enter a personal agreement & so long as we're both satisfied and honest then there's no problems.

Flippers in the negative sense are the liars, scoundrels that play on cuemakers heart strings & such to get a cue faster or cheaper, so they can use the cue for their own profit. They lie & cheat to get the deal. These guys aren't cue dealers and shouldn't be compared to actual dealers. Per example, I once had a fellow order a cue & told me he was a student and couldn't afford much so just a basic player would be good. I could level with the kid so I built him a very nice cue for like $300. He had it about two weeks & told me somebody stole it from him & he really was attached to it, could I build him another? I felt sorry for him & built him another at even bigger discount. Two days after he recieved it I seen the first one go up for sale BY HIM for $700. He basically lied & cheated his way into getting paid to get a cue. He got a cue plus some cash for nothing but some lies & a little time. That's a flipper, an extreme case but a good example. I learned my lesson from him & several others. There's lots of them. If a builder spends much of his time with customers like this, how long before you get wise & raise your prices? How long before you say f$ck it & get a dealer? There's a huge difference between dealers & flippers.

As for a dealer not being able to sell your cues, it's not entirely their fault. Let's all face it. There are lots of undesired builders and every one of them feel their cues are worthy. But are they? Really? I can't say. I can only assess my own self. I learned long ago to look at myself from outside the box and try to see me as everybody else sees me. I try not to taint my self perception with fantasy. Decisions I make are influenced by this but not dictated by it. I won't change who I am or how I feel because I want to fit in, but I will absorb & try to learn the points of view others have in hopes of gathering some insight that I may lack. It's all about learning. My cues reflect this in their design and how they play. They are still a reflection of me, but are not so self absorbed that nobody but me can relate to them. As I grow, they grow. As I diversify, so do they. So when a dealer or myself has a problem selling a cue, I can swallow my pride and assess the situation, even when it means learning that I might have simply built a cue nobody likes. Me being me, if this happened enough to prove unsuccess, then i'd either completely change direction with my building or else i'd quit & try something else in life. It may hurt, but i'm not too proud or stubborn to know when i'm on the wrong path. Again, it's all about learning. For me that's how it is. To each his own.

And be careful what you wish for. Lots of builders ask for busy schedules & lots of cues to build. But few really understand what comes with it. With every ordered cue is a customer. Every one of those customers want to be involved in the build. They want specific things and they like to simply BS about cues. They have questions & want to learn. That's all great, really. It is. But now multiply that by how many orders you want to fill in a year. Let's say you wanna build 50 cues in a year, at $1000 each. After taxes & overhead, you will bring home about $35,000 in that year. That's poverty. Now consider the time it takes to build those 50 cues, and then consider the time you spend emailing, PMing, phone talking with all 50 of those customers. I know a lot of my buyers call at least twice per week and talk 45 minutes+ every time. 5 of those per day really cut back on building time. Tell them you have no time to talk & they no longer feel interested in you because you are showing them your only interest is in getting their money. So you'd lose lots of orders like that. So you have to talk. You have to. That's part of the reason they buy custom instead of production. It's the experience. But do you have time for it? So how do you fix this? The only way to to limit your production and raise your price. Build 25 $2000 cues instead of 50 $1000 cues. Or get a dealer & hope for the best. It's a tough gig making it go by building cues. In fact, it's damned near impossible. It's an impossible dream.

Sorry for such a long post but there's a lot to address. Point being is that cuemaking is something you should do because you love doing it, not because you think you can make money at it. I do well because I have money outside of cues. There's no way I could live on cue income with a wife & children. I sell as many cues as anybody and they get dang good money. But it's nothing near living wages. It's piggy bank money. A single man shop can't do it. It's virtually impossible. The numbers simply don't equate. Do it for love & be happy you're doing it. If you need money, get a job.

 

[ridewiththewind]

A builder makes a deal with a dealer. 30% is pretty standard. The builder's job is to build cues and focus his attention & time on building cues as well as he can build. The dealer, for his 30% cut, handles all of the marketing, advertising, selling, etc. He handles all of the people person stuff that many of us builders aren't so great at. I'm not a good salesman, nor am I fond of constantly having to smile & be nice for everybody every day so folks like me enough to buy my product. The dealer is. Him dealing my product allows me the opportunity to do what I do best, build cues. He does what he does best, sells cues. We both win. We're both happy. Who's flipping? What's to complain about? I enter a personal agreement & so long as we're both satisfied and honest then there's no problems.

Flippers in the negative sense are the liars, scoundrels that play on cuemakers heart strings & such to get a cue faster or cheaper, so they can use the cue for their own profit. They lie & cheat to get the deal. These guys aren't cue dealers and shouldn't be compared to actual dealers. Per example, I once had a fellow order a cue & told me he was a student and couldn't afford much so just a basic player would be good. I could level with the kid so I built him a very nice cue for like $300. He had it about two weeks & told me somebody stole it from him & he really was attached to it, could I build him another? I felt sorry for him & built him another at even bigger discount. Two days after he recieved it I seen the first one go up for sale BY HIM for $700. He basically lied & cheated his way into getting paid to get a cue. He got a cue plus some cash for nothing but some lies & a little time. That's a flipper, an extreme case but a good example. I learned my lesson from him & several others. There's lots of them. If a builder spends much of his time with customers like this, how long before you get wise & raise your prices? How long before you say f$ck it & get a dealer? There's a huge difference between dealers & flippers.

As for a dealer not being able to sell your cues, it's not entirely their fault. Let's all face it. There are lots of undesired builders and every one of them feel their cues are worthy. But are they? Really? I can't say. I can only assess my own self. I learned long ago to look at myself from outside the box and try to see me as everybody else sees me. I try not to taint my self perception with fantasy. Decisions I make are influenced by this but not dictated by it. I won't change who I am or how I feel because I want to fit in, but I will absorb & try to learn the points of view others have in hopes of gathering some insight that I may lack. It's all about learning. My cues reflect this in their design and how they play. They are still a reflection of me, but are not so self absorbed that nobody but me can relate to them. As I grow, they grow. As I diversify, so do they. So when a dealer or myself has a problem selling a cue, I can swallow my pride and assess the situation, even when it means learning that I might have simply built a cue nobody likes. Me being me, if this happened enough to prove unsuccess, then i'd either completely change direction with my building or else i'd quit & try something else in life. It may hurt, but i'm not too proud or stubborn to know when i'm on the wrong path. Again, it's all about learning. For me that's how it is. To each his own.

And be careful what you wish for. Lots of builders ask for busy schedules & lots of cues to build. But few really understand what comes with it. With every ordered cue is a customer. Every one of those customers want to be involved in the build. They want specific things and they like to simply BS about cues. They have questions & want to learn. That's all great, really. It is. But now multiply that by how many orders you want to fill in a year. Let's say you wanna build 50 cues in a year, at $1000 each. After taxes & overhead, you will bring home about $35,000 in that year. That's poverty. Now consider the time it takes to build those 50 cues, and then consider the time you spend emailing, PMing, phone talking with all 50 of those customers. I know a lot of my buyers call at least twice per week and talk 45 minutes+ every time. 5 of those per day really cut back on building time. Tell them you have no time to talk & they no longer feel interested in you because you are showing them your only interest is in getting their money. So you'd lose lots of orders like that. So you have to talk. You have to. That's part of the reason they buy custom instead of production. It's the experience. But do you have time for it? So how do you fix this? The only way to to limit your production and raise your price. Build 25 $2000 cues instead of 50 $1000 cues. Or get a dealer & hope for the best. It's a tough gig making it go by building cues. In fact, it's damned near impossible. It's an impossible dream.

Sorry for such a long post but there's a lot to address. Point being is that cuemaking is something you should do because you love doing it, not because you think you can make money at it. I do well because I have money outside of cues. There's no way I could live on cue income with a wife & children. I sell as many cues as anybody and they get dang good money. But it's nothing near living wages. It's piggy bank money. A single man shop can't do it. It's virtually impossible. The numbers simply don't equate. Do it for love & be happy you're doing it. If you need money, get a job.

This is precisely the point I was trying to get across...but since I am not a dealer, or a cue maker, and am damn sure not a flipper...this post says it better than perhaps myself. I do not know if it could have been stated any clearer.

 

[GoTulane]

That is a lot of BS'ing!!!

Yes, I pick up plenty of cues and turn them pretty quickly, as I have said in an earlier post. Mainly I just want to try out as many builders, and see what I really like. And I believe I found what I like, so I have a few cues in the making, or hopefully going into the making, since I have found that if I buy a cue that wasn't made for me specifically, then it will not hold as much value to me, and therefore it will probably find its way into somebody else's hands or case.

But through my "flipping" of cues over the last 5 years, I have found what I like in a cue, and had the opportunity to try out many different cuemakers' cues. And though I am probably negative in the money making dept over the long run, it has been a great spend of cash just to have the opportunity to try out many cues and many makers, and some of the most amazing cues out there. Even when I was unemployed, I still kept the addiction of trying out cues, and actually picked up some of the most amazing cues to try. It is crazy that way - I had very little money, but got some really unique opportunities to try out some of the coolest cues during that time.

Now I am employed, and really like my new job, and look forward to getting a few cues made for me, but I will probably have quite a wait for a few of them - need to gather the money and also give the cuemaker the time to get my dream cue in line to be crafted.

But I am one of those people that will not bug or BS with the cuemaker over long extended times during the build of the cue. I know what I want, and I hope to provide that information clearly the first time. AND I KNOW A CUEMAKER'S TIME IS VERY IMPORTANT!! I am just one person in line, and there are plenty of others who also want a cue. Plus the cuemaker has a family, and does not want to spend all his time building cues or talking cues, nor should he be expected to do it!! I need a break from work, and down time is NEVER overrated - so I understand. I wouldn't want to bug or take time out of a cuemaker's daily schedule, unless it was required. The Cue Artisans that I have in mind to build my few chosen cues know what they are doing, and I put my trust in their hands that they will provide the best possible cue they can craft for me - and that is that. What else do I need to do?

So I am not trying to be mean to others that believe they need to talk to the cuemaker every day/week, and I do like talking to people, but I wouldn't want to control somebody's time more than I already will be doing by having them make me a cue. They also have a life outside of MY CUE CREATION, and therefore, I must respect that - That is just my take on it. I guess I am just too easy going, but that is how I am.


SO I am just letting all of you cuemakers out there know that:

I am patient, and not bothersome, so let me know if you have room for me on your build list. I am not a rich man, but I am also not poor, and I am looking forward to having a few cues built to call my own, which will eventually find their way into my son's hands when he learns the love of the game and the beauty of wood crafted in the shape of a pool cue. (I already have one cue on order and expect it soon, and I have spoken to the other cue artisan about a build using pink ivory wood, but that cue may take some time to start since the cuemaker is highly sought after, and is flooded with requests everyday) So I might have room for one more cue purcahse in the next year - 2011.

Of course I will still continue to purchase/sell/trade cues on the secondary market to continue to try out new and also established cuemakers that I still have not had a chance to try out. That is my stress relief after a long day at work, and it allows me to do something I enjoy - playing pool!!


Michael

 

[qbilder]

Michael, going through cues would not really warrant being a flipper. That's just being a cue nut. We're all cue nuts. I don't know any good builder that didn't blow through countless cues before building their own. Cues are fun. We love them. There's nothing wrong in buying, selling, swapping, etc. It's fun. Flippers that builders don't like are the liars & folks trying to play underhanded angles to get quick cash turnaround. You don't exactly fit that mold.

As for BSing with buyers, I love it. That's the fun of building for me. I get to meet folks from all around the world, all walks of life that share my interests. If I relied on cues for cash then I might get bothered by spending my days BSing & talking cues. But I don't. So I can enjoy myself. Besides, I learn a lot by speaking with everybody. It's fun. Why have passion for something you don't want to share with other like minded folks? It's only human, and frankly it's enjoyable. Cues are fun. My long post was mostly to point out that there's a lot of non-profit time involved in cuemaking and that it's not for everyone. If you don't absolutely love cues & love talking about cues as well as building them, then maybe cuemaking isn't your thing. The pay for building cues is the people you meet, the fun times you share with them, the great conversation, and the craft itself. The money is never going to justify the time spent so if it's not a deep rooted passion then you won't be a happy cuemaker. If you can't be happy, why do it?

 

[JB Cases]

A builder makes a deal with a dealer. 30% is pretty standard. The builder's job is to build cues and focus his attention & time on building cues as well as he can build. The dealer, for his 30% cut, handles all of the marketing, advertising, selling, etc. He handles all of the people person stuff that many of us builders aren't so great at. I'm not a good salesman, nor am I fond of constantly having to smile & be nice for everybody every day so folks like me enough to buy my product. The dealer is. Him dealing my product allows me the opportunity to do what I do best, build cues. He does what he does best, sells cues. We both win. We're both happy. Who's flipping? What's to complain about? I enter a personal agreement & so long as we're both satisfied and honest then there's no problems.

Flippers in the negative sense are the liars, scoundrels that play on cuemakers heart strings & such to get a cue faster or cheaper, so they can use the cue for their own profit. They lie & cheat to get the deal. These guys aren't cue dealers and shouldn't be compared to actual dealers. Per example, I once had a fellow order a cue & told me he was a student and couldn't afford much so just a basic player would be good. I could level with the kid so I built him a very nice cue for like $300. He had it about two weeks & told me somebody stole it from him & he really was attached to it, could I build him another? I felt sorry for him & built him another at even bigger discount. Two days after he recieved it I seen the first one go up for sale BY HIM for $700. He basically lied & cheated his way into getting paid to get a cue. He got a cue plus some cash for nothing but some lies & a little time. That's a flipper, an extreme case but a good example. I learned my lesson from him & several others. There's lots of them. If a builder spends much of his time with customers like this, how long before you get wise & raise your prices? How long before you say f$ck it & get a dealer? There's a huge difference between dealers & flippers.

As for a dealer not being able to sell your cues, it's not entirely their fault. Let's all face it. There are lots of undesired builders and every one of them feel their cues are worthy. But are they? Really? I can't say. I can only assess my own self. I learned long ago to look at myself from outside the box and try to see me as everybody else sees me. I try not to taint my self perception with fantasy. Decisions I make are influenced by this but not dictated by it. I won't change who I am or how I feel because I want to fit in, but I will absorb & try to learn the points of view others have in hopes of gathering some insight that I may lack. It's all about learning. My cues reflect this in their design and how they play. They are still a reflection of me, but are not so self absorbed that nobody but me can relate to them. As I grow, they grow. As I diversify, so do they. So when a dealer or myself has a problem selling a cue, I can swallow my pride and assess the situation, even when it means learning that I might have simply built a cue nobody likes. Me being me, if this happened enough to prove unsuccess, then i'd either completely change direction with my building or else i'd quit & try something else in life. It may hurt, but i'm not too proud or stubborn to know when i'm on the wrong path. Again, it's all about learning. For me that's how it is. To each his own.

And be careful what you wish for. Lots of builders ask for busy schedules & lots of cues to build. But few really understand what comes with it. With every ordered cue is a customer. Every one of those customers want to be involved in the build. They want specific things and they like to simply BS about cues. They have questions & want to learn. That's all great, really. It is. But now multiply that by how many orders you want to fill in a year. Let's say you wanna build 50 cues in a year, at $1000 each. After taxes & overhead, you will bring home about $35,000 in that year. That's poverty. Now consider the time it takes to build those 50 cues, and then consider the time you spend emailing, PMing, phone talking with all 50 of those customers. I know a lot of my buyers call at least twice per week and talk 45 minutes+ every time. 5 of those per day really cut back on building time. Tell them you have no time to talk & they no longer feel interested in you because you are showing them your only interest is in getting their money. So you'd lose lots of orders like that. So you have to talk. You have to. That's part of the reason they buy custom instead of production. It's the experience. But do you have time for it? So how do you fix this? The only way to to limit your production and raise your price. Build 25 $2000 cues instead of 50 $1000 cues. Or get a dealer & hope for the best. It's a tough gig making it go by building cues. In fact, it's damned near impossible. It's an impossible dream.

Sorry for such a long post but there's a lot to address. Point being is that cuemaking is something you should do because you love doing it, not because you think you can make money at it. I do well because I have money outside of cues. There's no way I could live on cue income with a wife & children. I sell as many cues as anybody and they get dang good money. But it's nothing near living wages. It's piggy bank money. A single man shop can't do it. It's virtually impossible. The numbers simply don't equate. Do it for love & be happy you're doing it. If you need money, get a job.

Just quoting this because it's SO TRUE. Eric, listen man, it's been a tough year with the cases and all but I really want to get back into playing and I know you know what I mean. So dude if you could just like squeeze me in with a basic player, you know the kind I want just good solid woods the way you like to build them. I just want that good old feeling like it's an extension of my arm, you know right?

I managed to scrape together $500 and I know it's not anywhere close to what your cues are worth but man if you could find in your heart to just send me anything you'd play with, even a reject or whatever I just have my heart set on one of your cues and nothing else.

Thanks a lot for your consideration and I swear that this cue will go to my kids and their kids.

Your best friend,

John


P.S. If you can fit me in I promise to send you a lifetime supply of sac-fresh.

P.P.S. If I ever did have to sell it then it would be a matter of life and death I swear. Or unless some sweet deal came up on Runde cuz I hear those play awesome. I know you understand, right?

 

[JB Cases]

Jim Lee is right...simple as that... bicker and argue all you want but jim's op is dead on most people posting in this thread dont have the equipment to install a tip let alone the know how to do it so there are two types of people arguing in this thread.... collectors/flippers and a legitimate cue builder (s) so collect and flip all you want...but there is still a hell of alot of guys out there building great cues that get no recognition because they are more concerned with building a quality cue instead of trying to look cool ond be in certain cliques....imho

This is a lot of projecting about what's going on in people's minds. I have to say that out of all the people on AZ I am possibly one of the top ten when it comes to knowing a lot of cue makers personally and having been in their shops. Certainly the top twenty I'd wager.

Almost without exception all of those cue makers have been nice, cordial, funny, intelligent and really passionate about their work. I SERIOUSLY doubt that you will find any of them that are "trying to look cool and be in certain cliques".

Who is getting no recognition?

Recognition comes from a few things one of which is how many people actually know about and have experience with your product.

At last count there were something like 700 active cuemakers. Is this right? Joe?

Is there any way on Earth that 700 cue makers can all be great? Can they all be recognized? No. They can't. The ones who stand out are the ones who are forging their own way, ones who are participating socially and ones who have been sought out by dealers, players and collectors for their excellent work and their commitment to quality and their own style.

Joe hit the nail on the head when said it's a saturated market. 700 active cuemakers, easily 1000 brands of cues on the market - EVERYONE but a very few has it tough selling cues these days.

So as Eric said, most are doing it for a hobby because it's not enough to really be considered a career.

The fact is that a of folks on this forum just don't understand business. Building something is only one part of the equation. Selling it is the other. Go to the big arts and crafts fairs and you will see TONS of amazing artists and woodworkers who spend half their year doing the show circuit to sell their wares. A lucky few get picked up by galleries and manage to jump into another circle of customers with deep pockets. The rest struggle year to year doing their art and eking out a living selling out of 10x10 tents.

All of us dream of building only what we want to build and having a ready line of buyers with cash in hand willing to pay whatever we ask. Wouldn't that be great?

But life does not work that way. Recognition comes over time. It comes from building a circle of contented customers who appreciate your work enough to recommend you, to sell for you, and become repeat customers. If you're lucky then you hit a certain level of recognition that brings you new business based on your reputation. A lot of great craftsmen never get to this level because the stars don't line up. It's just the way it is.

Now a maker can help themselves by getting out there and promoting themselves and their work. But that takes time away from the lathe and has the downside that it can be perceived as a negative by would be buyers. Either way, it's work. Go the wrong way and you're Eddie Wheat.

Go the right way and you're Michael Webb, Tony Zinzola, etc....

But I am getting way off track. I haven't met a cue maker yet who was in it just to be "cool" and in with the "in crowd". I know it hurts to see certain names tossed about constantly as if those makers are the be all end all of cuemaking. But if you look deeper then you will usually find that those makers are connecting with customers through something that makes them unique.

In my opinion that is.

 

[BHQ]

At last count there were something like 700 active cuemakers. Is this right? Joe?

ernie aka claymonts list
i think it was about 875 in usa alone

 

[tony frank]

Just busines ?????

Here's a different take on custom design business in general. May also apply to this forum.
2 partners and myself started a design business 40 years ago. After spending many, many dollars and much time doing the advertising bit / promos, etc. We finally realized that our services were only desired by a very limited market. In affect most of our time and money was wasted thinking that someone out there would actually refer us to others who could use our products and services. DEAD wrong. We finally were able to conduct a successful business by door knocking where there was a potential good client. It was proven to us over the years that soliciting marginal and/or speculative customers was much like digging our own grave. We concentrated on satisfying the primo customers we had and they were good enough to recommend us to other primo clients. We worked for over 40 years - no advertising or even a yellow pages phone number - completing over 4500 projects for 175 clients. Never paid attention to our many competitors and concentrated fully on establishing our credibility with our first class clients. This may not pertain well to the retail business, however there may be a bit of food for thought here. I've been a successful all around $ playing pool / billiards / snooker player for over 50 years. My purchases and dealings are with people who have a reputation and a following of an astute group of customers. I want and look for integrity, talent and dedicated people who honor themselves and their profession. Unfortunately the flipping hype is eaten up by to many naive people which detracts from the business of the true artisan. One can only walk the walk and build that reputation one way or another. Dzuricky playing cue - old beasty unknown sneaky backup / break- Moori soft - 13mm, 11mm stock lucasi shafts and a tiger x - Play to win every game. No fakery or 2 bit hustling !! Same in business.

 

[classiccues]

At last count there were something like 700 active cuemakers. Is this right? Joe?

ernie aka claymonts list
i think it was about 875 in usa alone

I started the thread that Ernie was nice enough to keep updating. Yes, it's a lot of wood. Now if those 875 each made an average of 75 cues a year, that is A LOT of product.

JV

 

[classiccues]

A builder makes a deal with a dealer. 30% is pretty standard. The builder's job is to build cues and focus his attention & time on building cues as well as he can build. The dealer, for his 30% cut, handles all of the marketing, advertising, selling, etc. He handles all of the people person stuff that many of us builders aren't so great at. I'm not a good salesman, nor am I fond of constantly having to smile & be nice for everybody every day so folks like me enough to buy my product. The dealer is. Him dealing my product allows me the opportunity to do what I do best, build cues. He does what he does best, sells cues. We both win. We're both happy. Who's flipping? What's to complain about? I enter a personal agreement & so long as we're both satisfied and honest then there's no problems.

Flippers in the negative sense are the liars, scoundrels that play on cuemakers heart strings & such to get a cue faster or cheaper, so they can use the cue for their own profit. They lie & cheat to get the deal. These guys aren't cue dealers and shouldn't be compared to actual dealers. Per example, I once had a fellow order a cue & told me he was a student and couldn't afford much so just a basic player would be good. I could level with the kid so I built him a very nice cue for like $300. He had it about two weeks & told me somebody stole it from him & he really was attached to it, could I build him another? I felt sorry for him & built him another at even bigger discount. Two days after he recieved it I seen the first one go up for sale BY HIM for $700. He basically lied & cheated his way into getting paid to get a cue. He got a cue plus some cash for nothing but some lies & a little time. That's a flipper, an extreme case but a good example. I learned my lesson from him & several others. There's lots of them. If a builder spends much of his time with customers like this, how long before you get wise & raise your prices? How long before you say f$ck it & get a dealer? There's a huge difference between dealers & flippers.

As for a dealer not being able to sell your cues, it's not entirely their fault. Let's all face it. There are lots of undesired builders and every one of them feel their cues are worthy. But are they? Really? I can't say. I can only assess my own self. I learned long ago to look at myself from outside the box and try to see me as everybody else sees me. I try not to taint my self perception with fantasy. Decisions I make are influenced by this but not dictated by it. I won't change who I am or how I feel because I want to fit in, but I will absorb & try to learn the points of view others have in hopes of gathering some insight that I may lack. It's all about learning. My cues reflect this in their design and how they play. They are still a reflection of me, but are not so self absorbed that nobody but me can relate to them. As I grow, they grow. As I diversify, so do they. So when a dealer or myself has a problem selling a cue, I can swallow my pride and assess the situation, even when it means learning that I might have simply built a cue nobody likes. Me being me, if this happened enough to prove unsuccess, then i'd either completely change direction with my building or else i'd quit & try something else in life. It may hurt, but i'm not too proud or stubborn to know when i'm on the wrong path. Again, it's all about learning. For me that's how it is. To each his own.

And be careful what you wish for. Lots of builders ask for busy schedules & lots of cues to build. But few really understand what comes with it. With every ordered cue is a customer. Every one of those customers want to be involved in the build. They want specific things and they like to simply BS about cues. They have questions & want to learn. That's all great, really. It is. But now multiply that by how many orders you want to fill in a year. Let's say you wanna build 50 cues in a year, at $1000 each. After taxes & overhead, you will bring home about $35,000 in that year. That's poverty. Now consider the time it takes to build those 50 cues, and then consider the time you spend emailing, PMing, phone talking with all 50 of those customers. I know a lot of my buyers call at least twice per week and talk 45 minutes+ every time. 5 of those per day really cut back on building time. Tell them you have no time to talk & they no longer feel interested in you because you are showing them your only interest is in getting their money. So you'd lose lots of orders like that. So you have to talk. You have to. That's part of the reason they buy custom instead of production. It's the experience. But do you have time for it? So how do you fix this? The only way to to limit your production and raise your price. Build 25 $2000 cues instead of 50 $1000 cues. Or get a dealer & hope for the best. It's a tough gig making it go by building cues. In fact, it's damned near impossible. It's an impossible dream.

Sorry for such a long post but there's a lot to address. Point being is that cuemaking is something you should do because you love doing it, not because you think you can make money at it. I do well because I have money outside of cues. There's no way I could live on cue income with a wife & children. I sell as many cues as anybody and they get dang good money. But it's nothing near living wages. It's piggy bank money. A single man shop can't do it. It's virtually impossible. The numbers simply don't equate. Do it for love & be happy you're doing it. If you need money, get a job.

Eric,
You and I are on the same page 100%. I feel for any cuemaker that tries to make this his main income business. You would have to own all your property outright, have no bills, no family etc.. It's a tough nut and it's getting tougher. Every year I notice at valley forge more and more people standing around the machinery booths, they should be talking to all the cuemakers that go their and don't sell a damn cue. That will give them some perspective. I think they see a lot of the cues on line and in the booths down there and get this brainstorm, or brainfart, on how they could become rich.

JV

 

[Bamacues]

A builder makes a deal with a dealer. 30% is pretty standard. The builder's job is to build cues and focus his attention & time on building cues as well as he can build. The dealer, for his 30% cut, handles all of the marketing, advertising, selling, etc. He handles all of the people person stuff that many of us builders aren't so great at. I'm not a good salesman, nor am I fond of constantly having to smile & be nice for everybody every day so folks like me enough to buy my product. The dealer is. Him dealing my product allows me the opportunity to do what I do best, build cues. He does what he does best, sells cues. We both win. We're both happy. Who's flipping? What's to complain about? I enter a personal agreement & so long as we're both satisfied and honest then there's no problems.

Flippers in the negative sense are the liars, scoundrels that play on cuemakers heart strings & such to get a cue faster or cheaper, so they can use the cue for their own profit. They lie & cheat to get the deal. These guys aren't cue dealers and shouldn't be compared to actual dealers. Per example, I once had a fellow order a cue & told me he was a student and couldn't afford much so just a basic player would be good. I could level with the kid so I built him a very nice cue for like $300. He had it about two weeks & told me somebody stole it from him & he really was attached to it, could I build him another? I felt sorry for him & built him another at even bigger discount. Two days after he recieved it I seen the first one go up for sale BY HIM for $700. He basically lied & cheated his way into getting paid to get a cue. He got a cue plus some cash for nothing but some lies & a little time. That's a flipper, an extreme case but a good example. I learned my lesson from him & several others. There's lots of them. If a builder spends much of his time with customers like this, how long before you get wise & raise your prices? How long before you say f$ck it & get a dealer? There's a huge difference between dealers & flippers.

As for a dealer not being able to sell your cues, it's not entirely their fault. Let's all face it. There are lots of undesired builders and every one of them feel their cues are worthy. But are they? Really? I can't say. I can only assess my own self. I learned long ago to look at myself from outside the box and try to see me as everybody else sees me. I try not to taint my self perception with fantasy. Decisions I make are influenced by this but not dictated by it. I won't change who I am or how I feel because I want to fit in, but I will absorb & try to learn the points of view others have in hopes of gathering some insight that I may lack. It's all about learning. My cues reflect this in their design and how they play. They are still a reflection of me, but are not so self absorbed that nobody but me can relate to them. As I grow, they grow. As I diversify, so do they. So when a dealer or myself has a problem selling a cue, I can swallow my pride and assess the situation, even when it means learning that I might have simply built a cue nobody likes. Me being me, if this happened enough to prove unsuccess, then i'd either completely change direction with my building or else i'd quit & try something else in life. It may hurt, but i'm not too proud or stubborn to know when i'm on the wrong path. Again, it's all about learning. For me that's how it is. To each his own.

And be careful what you wish for. Lots of builders ask for busy schedules & lots of cues to build. But few really understand what comes with it. With every ordered cue is a customer. Every one of those customers want to be involved in the build. They want specific things and they like to simply BS about cues. They have questions & want to learn. That's all great, really. It is. But now multiply that by how many orders you want to fill in a year. Let's say you wanna build 50 cues in a year, at $1000 each. After taxes & overhead, you will bring home about $35,000 in that year. That's poverty. Now consider the time it takes to build those 50 cues, and then consider the time you spend emailing, PMing, phone talking with all 50 of those customers. I know a lot of my buyers call at least twice per week and talk 45 minutes+ every time. 5 of those per day really cut back on building time. Tell them you have no time to talk & they no longer feel interested in you because you are showing them your only interest is in getting their money. So you'd lose lots of orders like that. So you have to talk. You have to. That's part of the reason they buy custom instead of production. It's the experience. But do you have time for it? So how do you fix this? The only way to to limit your production and raise your price. Build 25 $2000 cues instead of 50 $1000 cues. Or get a dealer & hope for the best. It's a tough gig making it go by building cues. In fact, it's damned near impossible. It's an impossible dream.

Sorry for such a long post but there's a lot to address. Point being is that cuemaking is something you should do because you love doing it, not because you think you can make money at it. I do well because I have money outside of cues. There's no way I could live on cue income with a wife & children. I sell as many cues as anybody and they get dang good money. But it's nothing near living wages. It's piggy bank money. A single man shop can't do it. It's virtually impossible. The numbers simply don't equate. Do it for love & be happy you're doing it. If you need money, get a job.

Eric,
You are dead-on, in my opinion, with what you say (and JB added to it afterwards). I had a really good career for 35 years, and now I am retired from it. I deal with cues because I am a woodwork lover and an avid pool player...not as good as I once was, but still fairly competitive.

There truly are not very many cuemakers making a decent living building cues. Most of the "good" cuebuilders that I know do it for the love of what they do. If their families depended totally on cuebuilding to feed them, they would all starve.

I once thought that I wanted to build cues. I built 4 of them...all pretty simple cues. WAY too much money and time involved (not counting all the needed infrastructure) with WAY too little return. I will never build another one. There are way too many guys out there who do it SO much better than I can, I prefer to toy with their cues and appreciate their artwork.

As Eric said, do what you do for the love of it. I have played pool for almost 50 years now. I am thinking of making it a serious hobby. Cues are the same way.

Joe

 

[classiccues]

Almost without exception all of those cue makers have been nice, cordial, funny, intelligent and really passionate about their work. I SERIOUSLY doubt that you will find any of them that are "trying to look cool and be in certain cliques".

Who is getting no recognition?

Recognition comes from a few things one of which is how many people actually know about and have experience with your product.

At last count there were something like 700 active cuemakers. Is this right? Joe?......

Joe hit the nail on the head when said it's a saturated market. 700 active cuemakers, easily 1000 brands of cues on the market - EVERYONE but a very few has it tough selling cues these days.

So as Eric said, most are doing it for a hobby because it's not enough to really be considered a career.

The fact is that a of folks on this forum just don't understand business. Building something is only one part of the equation. Selling it is the other. ....

Yes, apparently there are some that don't know anything about business. When the market is lean there is static product, if a dealer isn't careful he could get a lot of static product and be in trouble.

Another hypothetical to show it's a two way street.... I pick up cuemaker xxx and we have our agreement. His cues just ain't selling for whatever reason.. now I have a few k in his product. But that cuemaker has to eat to, and since I ain't moving anything, I can't restock, so he needs to move cues. He comes out and starts to undersell me. Should I be mad, you betcha, but it happens. There is risk in tying up your money for a long length of time.

I don't buy as much anymore because even repair time is tough. SW wants 12 -16 weeks for a shaft. How do I buy a thinned shaft cue to sit for 3-4 months then have to invest another 6-7 beans... fact is that is why if one comes to me with thin shafts then it's no better than a 1200 dollar cue.

JV

 

[qbilder]

Yes, apparently there are some that don't know anything about business. When the market is lean there is static product, if a dealer isn't careful he could get a lot of static product and be in trouble.

Another hypothetical to show it's a two way street.... I pick up cuemaker xxx and we have our agreement. His cues just ain't selling for whatever reason.. now I have a few k in his product. But that cuemaker has to eat to, and since I ain't moving anything, I can't restock, so he needs to move cues. He comes out and starts to undersell me. Should I be mad, you betcha, but it happens. There is risk in tying up your money for a long length of time.

I don't buy as much anymore because even repair time is tough. SW wants 12 -16 weeks for a shaft. How do I buy a thinned shaft cue to sit for 3-4 months then have to invest another 6-7 beans... fact is that is why if one comes to me with thin shafts then it's no better than a 1200 dollar cue.

JV

Interesting perspective, but totally valid. I have heard numerous dealers groan about picking up a builder that they can't move. And we all see what happened with DP. He had to eat. When survival is compromised, morals & creeds lose value in most humans. It's the facts of life. Self preservation nearly always prevails. Things are great & happy so long as the market is flowing strong for everybody, but a little drought can really clam up some folks. It's never good but it's human. Understanding these dynamics & preparinging for the worst would save a lot of hurt feelings among builders & dealers alike. But dreams & hopes seem to always weigh out logic.