Have Yale heard the WPA nonsense and the US Open?

[NYC cue dude]

lol you guys are looking at this all backwards.

Shhh...don't tell Ian....I don't think he realizes what he has done. lol

The benefit of joining the WPA is that now the players will have the power. And unfortunately most of the players are not realizing this.

Contracts can work for you as well as against you. Think about it. If a bunch of random players were to make demands of the wpa, the WPA doesn't have to care or do anything about it.
If the entire player membership of the WPA makes a demand, the WPA will have little choice but to meet the demand or lose their members. (Hint hint)
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

That only works when members become members willingly. It become akin to signing under duress when a player is forced to sign a contract, without legal representation, a week before one of the most important tournaments of the year.

 

[HawaiianEye]

lol you guys are looking at this all backwards.

Shhh...don't tell Ian....I don't think he realizes what he has done. lol

The benefit of joining the WPA is that now the players will have the power. And unfortunately most of the players are not realizing this.

Contracts can work for you as well as against you. Think about it. If a bunch of random players were to make demands of the wpa, the WPA doesn't have to care or do anything about it.
If the entire player membership of the WPA makes a demand, the WPA will have little choice but to meet the demand or lose their members. (Hint hint)
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

Look at it in the reverse. If there are no pro members of the WPA, there is no WPA.

There needs to be some sort of money incentives and guarantees of something before you can be called "professional". Professionals usually get paid something for their work...they don't have to win their salaries. Individual sponsors for players give them something and they should be allowed to wear their logos.

Otherwise, you are just a pool player who acts nice, wears clothes that are designated to be worn, and just "say no to drugs".

As far as the drug testing, a good point was brought up about people being in states where certain things are legal. Are they going to test everyone at an event, like it is a "performance enhancing" substance, or just grab the random guy with red eyes eating Twinkies?

 

[tonyboy59]

Seems like a lot to ask for so little in return...very little. I'm not a professional player but if I was there is little incentive to get me to sign up.

 

[chefjeff]

Since there is no way to enforce the payouts, what kind of contract does the WPA have with the venues and tourney operators about that? It would seem that guaranteeing payout money, especially at the open!!!, would be number one on the list of things contracted.

Jeff Livingston

 

[Bbutler]

That's the only major issue with it imo.

Sorry but no, the most major issue with the contract is clearly the insurance clause...

I hereby declare that I am responsible for my own insurance coverage for attending any event to compete, including the time for travel to and from the event. I agree not to hold the organizer responsible for any insurance incident through any accident, medical or travel expense that I may incur.

The phrase "any insurance incident" is especially concerning as that's a very broad statement. They're basically indemnifying the US Open organizers from any liability incurred by any player while at the event, from personal injuries all the way to presumably lack of payment.

Doesn't look good at all if you ask me. Are they purposefully protecting themselves in case they come up short in funds and players want to sue to get their travel expenses back?

 

[BmoreMoney]

lol you guys are looking at this all backwards.

Shhh...don't tell Ian....I don't think he realizes what he has done. lol

The benefit of joining the WPA is that now the players will have the power. And unfortunately most of the players are not realizing this.

Contracts can work for you as well as against you. Think about it. If a bunch of random players were to make demands of the wpa, the WPA doesn't have to care or do anything about it.
If the entire player membership of the WPA makes a demand, the WPA will have little choice but to meet the demand or lose their members. (Hint hint)
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

" POWER " over what exactly though lol? You Mr Bond and a few select others are referring to all of this as if there were large sums of money are in play here. Truth is the only money viable for discussion Is the monies that are currently added to preexisting tournaments, the same that has been for however long now. NO NEW revenue streams, or mention of new tournaments ( so that the players MIGHT have an opportunity at MAYBE earning ( winning ) additional money. So respectfully Mr. Bond; in your opinion , what exactly is this " POWER " that you speak of ???

When you speak of comparing this contract to those of other " pro " sports your comparison should sound something like this : So with the ratification of all players new contract, the players will now receive a starting salary of $500 per week base salary. This base salary will increase at the minumum of $XXX based on years as a member in good standing. After 3 years, each player will have the opportunity to negotiate their own contract in regards to specific compensation as they see fit. Any monies won by a player in any given tournament are to be considered a performance bonus. The WPA has been in talks with all the nationwide hotel chains and have successfully obtained a discounted corporate rate of $59 / a night based on double occupancy with 5 of the following chains - xxx, xxx, xxx, xxx, and xxx. Simular deals have been inked with 3 air carriers xxx, xxx, and xxx as well as with Hertź, eneterprise, budget rental car companies. Moving forward, all players are to be allowed to obtain any sponsorship deals individually while keeping all money rcvd. Only restriction on these sponsorship deals with
be those deemed in appropriate based on a fair and reasonable basis as compared to industry standards. Each player will be responsible for attending x# of fan meet and greets each year, in two hour sessions each. Clinics can be arranged at official WPA events throughout the year and proceeds will be collectively split between all players and WPA AT THE rate of 50%/50%. Revenue from retail sales, TV revenue ( to include streaming and DVD sales will be split with players collectively as a whole and specifically based on overall individual demand.

Anyway Me Bond, this here is extremely rudimentary at best but I believe you get the idea. It spells out and gives the players an idea as to what can be expected to be provided to them as far a compensation. As we all know, with the current status of " pro pool " in the US these exact terms are not currently realistic at all ---- specifically the weekly salary. However; that aspect aside, I think MANY of these things are quite doable and I'm really not sure why much of this has never been addressed. If in fact the WPA Is supposed to be there to help the players and grow the sport as opposed to being just a " for profit " corporation with only their self interest in mind then why has nothing been done to show that? If you disagree with this then could you please give specific examples as to what the WPA has done / or even attempted to do????????

 

[Mark Griffin]

WPA contract

The voice of reason is Mr. Bond.

The US is out of step with the rest of the billiard world. If the US pro players refuse to sign or boycott, that will have zero affect on the events held all over the world, where only a couple us players ever go.

The WPA has issues that are very complex, and most don't understand them. But this contract was not created in a vacuum. It hopefully will address real problems caused by large promoters and counties who pressure players to only play in certain events.

The bottom line is that for the game to gain credibility and influence, there will have to be an organization that the players must join. To do otherwise only means separate individuals and promoters doing separate events and all the players remaining solo.

I don't agree this was done in the best manner but in principle, I agree that this or something similar is necessary. And The world 14.1 straight pool event only added salt to the whole situation.

Look at the future- look at the bigger picture. I am more interested in seeing US pool flourish -----but there needs to be a mechanism that ties the players and US promoters to the world wide arena. FargoRate is one step in the right direction. The WPA has its work cut out for them.....


Mark Griffin

 

[BmoreMoney]

I would like to add one thing. It is a bit off topic as to what we are discussing overall, but is relevant to " pro " pool.

This is more of a fan based issue, but without the fans there would be no " pro " ANYTHING. The discussion of having events where any Joe Schmoe can plop his entry fee down and get to compete with the top pros in the world. Some say it detracts from being able to be called " pro ". Now we all know the difference between the two so that really shouldn't be in question. As a fan; someone that loves pool, I think it's just the coolest thing in the world that you can pay your money and get up close and personal and compete right along side all of your hereos.

So, in some way does it detract from pro pool that some APA 2 can jump right in? Well yes I suppose in some ways it does. But making a comparison between being able to do that in pool and let's say pro football is not a good example at all. Its a combination of both common sense and safety. How can you have a 160lbs out of shape coach potatoe jump right in and getting plowed by a 250lb pure muscle linebacker ? Simple you cant. The same can not be said about pool though, he actual physical limitations do not come into play as it would in other pro sports. So
it then becomes an ego thing, but then again as I said - without the fans what do you have --- NOTHING!

SO what's the solution? It's very very simple as I see it. You have an actual " pro " tour that one would need to qualify for, much like in golf. You create events that on " pros " can play in - once again needing to qualify for much like golf. When I say " qualify " I don't know exactly what that would look like. However if the infrastructure were to be overhauled and fined tuned ( Imo it's already there but just not utilized or not used properly ). Something to the effect of the leagues ate considered the minors ( think A ball, AA ball, AAA ball etc ) and as your skill increases so does your participation. You could use something like FARGO RATE ( OMG! DID HE JUST SAY THAT LOLOLOL) Then to keep it cool and the fans happy and involved we could still have DCC, THE OPEN, AND other similar events like that just as they are today ( but making sure not to schedule overlapping " pro " only events and give the pros incentives to still participate in these events. Just my thoughts on this subject, I think it would be truly sad if these types of events ( pros and bangers playing together ) were to ever go away!!!

 

[Mr. Bond]

That only works when members become members willingly. It become akin to signing under duress when a player is forced to sign a contract, without legal representation, a week before one of the most important tournaments of the year.

True, but a) most of the eligible players knew well before a week ago. b) it's a very minimal contract and only lasts till the end of year.

Look at it in the reverse. If there are no pro members of the WPA, there is no WPA.

There needs to be some sort of money incentives and guarantees of something before you can be called "professional". Professionals usually get paid something for their work...they don't have to win their salaries. Individual sponsors for players give them something and they should be allowed to wear their logos.

Otherwise, you are just a pool player who acts nice, wears clothes that are designated to be worn, and just "say no to drugs".

As far as the drug testing, a good point was brought up about people being in states where certain things are legal. Are they going to test everyone at an event, like it is a "performance enhancing" substance, or just grab the random guy with red eyes eating Twinkies?

I agree that the WPA should guarantee prize funds. However, there are many organizations in the world that promote their industry, host events, maintain a political presence etc but they do not guarantee it's members a paycheck.

The drug testing is required by the IOC. However, a system of " credits " is used and in our case, nobody from the U.S. actually has to be tested per say. Its complicated but is of no grave concern except to blatant violators.

Seems like a lot to ask for so little in return...very little. I'm not a professional player but if I was there is little incentive to get me to sign up.

Not a lot. But some.

Since there is no way to enforce the payouts, what kind of contract does the WPA have with the venues and tourney operators about that? It would seem that guaranteeing payout money, especially at the open!!!, would be number one on the list of things contracted.

Jeff Livingston

I agree. Although typically the WPA sanctioned events are not the ones run by underhanded boneheads.

It would be as simple, in some cases, as requiring the promoter to be bonded for said amount.

 

[Mr. Bond]

" POWER " over what exactly though lol? You Mr Bond and a few select others are referring to all of this as if there were large sums of money are in play here. Truth is the only money viable for discussion Is the monies that are currently added to preexisting tournaments, the same that has been for however long now. NO NEW revenue streams, or mention of new tournaments ( so that the players MIGHT have an opportunity at MAYBE earning ( winning ) additional money. So respectfully Mr. Bond; in your opinion , what exactly is this " POWER " that you speak of ???

When you speak of comparing this contract to those of other " pro " sports your comparison should sound something like this : So with the ratification of all players new contract, the players will now receive a starting salary of $500 per week base salary. This base salary will increase at the minumum of $XXX based on years as a member in good standing. After 3 years, each player will have the opportunity to negotiate their own contract in regards to specific compensation as they see fit. Any monies won by a player in any given tournament are to be considered a performance bonus. The WPA has been in talks with all the nationwide hotel chains and have successfully obtained a discounted corporate rate of $59 / a night based on double occupancy with 5 of the following chains - xxx, xxx, xxx, xxx, and xxx. Simular deals have been inked with 3 air carriers xxx, xxx, and xxx as well as with Hertź, eneterprise, budget rental car companies. Moving forward, all players are to be allowed to obtain any sponsorship deals individually while keeping all money rcvd. Only restriction on these sponsorship deals with
be those deemed in appropriate based on a fair and reasonable basis as compared to industry standards. Each player will be responsible for attending x# of fan meet and greets each year, in two hour sessions each. Clinics can be arranged at official WPA events throughout the year and proceeds will be collectively split between all players and WPA AT THE rate of 50%/50%. Revenue from retail sales, TV revenue ( to include streaming and DVD sales will be split with players collectively as a whole and specifically based on overall individual demand.

Anyway Me Bond, this here is extremely rudimentary at best but I believe you get the idea. It spells out and gives the players an idea as to what can be expected to be provided to them as far a compensation. As we all know, with the current status of " pro pool " in the US these exact terms are not currently realistic at all ---- specifically the weekly salary. However; that aspect aside, I think MANY of these things are quite doable and I'm really not sure why much of this has never been addressed. If in fact the WPA Is supposed to be there to help the players and grow the sport as opposed to being just a " for profit " corporation with only their self interest in mind then why has nothing been done to show that? If you disagree with this then could you please give specific examples as to what the WPA has done / or even attempted to do????????

Power - meaning - the ability to get something done.

One player cannot ask the WPA to give him what he wants.
( he can ask, but nothing will happen)
The player has no power to change the WPA.

In fact, one player can rarely demand anything.
But as soon as they speak as a group...they have power to change things. Like the WPA in ways you have suggested above.

Look, lol I don't mean to sound like some kinda cheesy motivational speaker, but these players badly need to make something happen. Either stick with the WPA or dont but they need to do something asap. And this opportunity could be taken advantage of easily.


Mike Howerton said he will be speaking at length with Ian of the WPA later today. Hopefully we can even get an interview out of him so you can hear it from him directly.

 

[Kid Dynomite]

I don't want to be negative. But, want to suggest that the contract and WPA add a player representative or an executor to represent the players and eliminate any potential conflicts of interest!

I'm for the contracts. But, think that the language regarding restrictions on players need to be slowly added over a period of time.

Get a basic level agreement first. Then work in the refining details.

Kd


Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

 

[Kid Dynomite]

Give the WPA some leverage with networks and the sport! If in 2 years they can't get things off the ground! Then the contract language should provide for the players to exit the contract.

Who ever wrote the document is a foul and thinks that they all are dumb!

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

 

[GideonF]

Is there anything to show that this is a genuine contract, besides one Facebook post (on which the image has been doctored)?

Here is the link contained in the press release I saw:

http://myemail.constantcontact.com/WPA-Player-Licenses-.html?soid=1102678861627&aid=p1JEfj4TJAc

[Edit] It is also contained in the link I provided in my post, below.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Get a basic level agreement first. Then work in the refining details.

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

Yeah. Like "Pay your money first. Show up and play. Place high and get paid. Lose and take your sorry broke ass home."

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see anything wrong with that contract.

 

[Kid Dynomite]

Yeah. Like "Pay your money first. Show up and play. Place high and get paid. Lose and take your sorry broke ass home."

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see anything wrong with that contract.

I do!

If the WPA association tries to work and build the sport!!!

Wouldn't it be nice to tell the networks and sponsors the players are "ALL" under "Contract" and work on behalf of the sport & the players???

The WPA is just trying to strengthen its negotiating position. If the players had a "Union" and players association then the contract may not have been necessary, The WPA and the players union would enter into a binding agreement.

The whole point is the sport has "Global" appeal and support outside of the USA and the way "International" entities do business requires some contractual assurances. Assurances that the WPA can not provide currently and they are trying to rectify the situation and strengthen the WPA and the sport.

With some safe guards added, I see nothing wrong. But in its current format, no one is signing unless it is modified greatly!!!!!

KD

 

[GideonF]

A few points:

1. I have asked on social media, but never received a clear answer about whether this is a new policy / contract or just new to the US Open. Did SVB, Alex etc. have to sign it to play the World 9b?

If it is new, it is inexcusable to bring it out just before the US Open. If it isn't new, it is inexcusable to only announce it just before the Open.

2. The $15 fee is nothing.

3. The requirement to do appearance should not be objectionable.

4. The drug testing is window-dressing - they want a policy to say they have one, but is anyone actually doing any? I doubt it - WADA testing is expensive.

5. Dress codes are fine.

6. I do have an issue with sponsorship patches. Players get paid good money to endorse certain products. Can Predator (say) pay the WPA/promotor and demand that SVB remove his Cuetech patch and/or put on a competing patch? That is wrong.

7. The insurance provision (which may absolve the organizer of liability for negligence) is wrong.

8. I do understand the interest of the WPA in protecting the "brand" of the World Championships and their beef with Dragon Promotions. I would be more sympathetic to their stated goals if they showed any real desire to help the players (such as requiring that the prize funds be escrowed).

9. I do not at all support the concept that the WPA can deem an event "big enough" to require WPA sanctioning (and thus require that no player attend it if it isn't sanctioned and they get fined $5,000 if they do). If someone holds the Toronto Open (not world championship) and puts up $30,000 in added money, the WPA should keep their nose out of it and their hands off the 7.5% of the added money that otherwise could go to players.

10. Even worse - if 8 entrants over more to my 64 man tournament (no matter what the added money) reside in another continent, my event is automatically an event requiring WPA sanctioning.

11. I am concerned with aspects of the Code of Conduct (which is really hard to find, but here it is: http://www.wpapool.com/pdf/web/wpa_sports_regulations_2016.pdf )

In particular,

(a) I worry that 6.1 unduly restricts players from raising concerns as happens at the Tornado Open;

(b) The $100 fee for asking the TD to rule (refunded only if the TD agrees with the player) is wrong. (6.3)

(c) Players should look carefully at the fines in 6.6.

(d) It is badly written so I can't tell if it applies only to Junior WC, but there may be a prohibition on "participating in any form of gambling", which results in disqualification from the event. If this is meant to apply to adults, it is terribly drafted. Can pros gamble in casinos? Can they engage is action matches at times unconnected to the event? (Note that "Involvement in match fixing for the purpose of gambling" is addressed separately). I could see a rule prohibiting gambling on the event (even if not match fixing), and maybe (maybe) saying you can't gamble at the event site (like after hours etc.), but otherwise you are disqualifying every Pinoy and most North American players.

(e) What exactly is "Abuse of the sport via public forums, electronic media or other mean"?

 

[BmoreMoney]

Yeah. Like "Pay your money first. Show up and play. Place high and get paid. Lose and take your sorry broke ass home."

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see anything wrong with that contract.

Well yes Eye, I think that's what we ate all reading The question then becomes : What's the point then? Players gain nothing but are more restricted in several areas - so what's the point? We all see the point from the WPA perspective but does it not seem like a greedy power grab ( that will also siphon money from the already hurt in players )?

 

[GideonF]

Charlie Williams and contracts. Reminds me of the UPA.

Just curious, but is the Mosconi Cup a WPA-sanctioned event?

I don't know the answer to that exactly, but Shawn Putnam was saying on Facebook that the WPA demanded $500 from each of the Mosconi Cup players, so they must somehow think it is "sanctioned".

 

[Kid Dynomite]

Well yes Eye, I think that's what we ate all reading The question then becomes : What's the point then? Players gain nothing but are more restricted in several areas - so what's the point? We all see the point from the WPA perspective but does it not seem like a greedy power grab ( that will also siphon money from the already hurt in players )?

that's the million dollar question ?

KD

 

[Bob Jewett]

...
4. The drug testing is window-dressing - they want a policy to say they have one, but is anyone actually doing any? I doubt it - WADA testing is expensive.
...

Yes, someone is. In fact there was a cue sports drug test failure five or ten years ago. I can't find any links to it which is just as well since it was some kind of prescription drug confusion, IIRC. I don't think cue sports have many PEDs available.

I think it was recently decided that WADA itself would be in charge of the testing rather than labs selected by the sports organizations. Maybe that was fall-out from the Rio Games.

In order to maintain international recognition the WPA/WCBS must have some level of testing. International competitors can potentially be tested at any time.