Having a tip with multiple shapes

James said:
I think my main problem was trying to defend an original statement I didn't make. I agree with the theory Jude was supporting, but not necessarily the way it was conveyed.

Side note... You have the afternoon off and you're arguing with me? You're dumber than I thought!!! :D :D :D (joking, if the faces didn't imply it)

The ONLY reason I spend time online is when I'm at work and bored. Get out there and do something fun!

-J
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I'm dressed and ready to go out , waiting on the wife to get ready and she won't let me get dirty.

:(

That's my story.

:cool:

(Hope she doesn't read this)
 
eldowan said:
... Would this provide any use at all? ...
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Pat Fleming tried something like what you suggest. He had a beveled tip so that he could get tip-ball contact closer to the center of the shaft on all spin shots. I don't recall the details of the results, but he didn't continue the experiment.

I don't know of anyone who has tried anything more complex than the bevel. My feeling is that it would be too complicated to use in regular play for most people. Beyond that, we haven't seen any evidence that tip shape has a lot to do with what you can make the cue ball do. There may be some minor effects, but none as large as you will get from practice.
 
i once wore a shaft down from 13mm to 12mm in a week due to excess chalking and getting too much of that super abrasive chalk dust on my shaft. my shaft's also now blue in color.

true story.
 
eldowan said:
My question is related to the piece of the article below, which describes using the cue in the same orientation each time you use it. My question if this: What if you were to take a tip, and shape it into four distinct curves, with a flat spot at the center. Correctly marked and used, would this provide an acceptable way to have what essentially boild down to 5 styles of tip curvature at hand on one shaft? I'm not sure I'm explaining this right, but say you've got the center flat, one side a nickle, one a dime, one smaller than a dime, and one larger than a nickle.

Would this provide any use at all?


In a sfbilliards article http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2002-11.pdf, Bob Jewett writes:
"Finally, here is a suggestion that you might put in the final 0.5 percent. Always shoot with your stick in the same rotation.
That is, always shoot with the same side up. A file and the bad chalk it fixed up (left); shafts marked for rotation (right).
The players who need the most precision ? snooker players ? do this already. A snooker cue has a flat bevel at the end of
butt, so that it looks a little like a chisel. The back hand holds the end of the butt with the "flat" always held the same way, maybe in
the palm. This means that the stick will have the same rotation on every shot. If there is any slight bend in the stick, it
will always be the same way. If there is any harder or softer spot on the tip, it will always be in the same place, for example
for draw. If the shaft is more flexible with or against the grain, that flexibility will always be the same way. The idea is that
all of these effects will be learned and dealt with subconsciously. Meucci Cues already has a solution for this. Their Red Dot
and Black Dot shafts are marked to allow the player to choose the right rotation. The right-hand photo on this page shows
the way I do it. With a permanent marker, make a sight on the ferrule just back from the tip. Always shoot with the sight up.
After a little practice, it will be a natural part of your game. One advantage is that if I plan to shoot a draw shot, I only need
to check for chalk on the part of the tip I use for draw. "
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since you are proposing this ridiculous solution, i assume you are unable to get the control you need with one tip profile (i.e. dime). this leads me to believe your stroke is so poor you are barely able to play with a whole tip, much less the specific 1/4 of a tip 'needed' for a certain shot.

why not get a job in the food industry and save up for 4 identical cues. then, once you purchase your 4 cuetecs, you can shape one into a dime, one into a quarter, and so on. on each shot, you can then step back and analyze as follows:

"if i were a good player, i'd be able to shoot with a dime/etc tip. but nevermind that. which of these 4 cues will correct my stroke mechanic deficiencies enough to let me 'almost' get correct shape on this shot? ah, that one!"

since we now have multiple cues with varying tips, why stop there? i recommend you also have every combination/permutation of tip size/shape AND cue weight. the possibilities are endless!!:)
 
cplayermagic said:
since you are proposing this ridiculous solution, i assume you are unable to get the control you need with one tip profile (i.e. dime). this leads me to believe your stroke is so poor you are barely able to play with a whole tip, much less the specific 1/4 of a tip 'needed' for a certain shot.

why not get a job in the food industry and save up for 4 identical cues. then, once you purchase your 4 cuetecs, you can shape one into a dime, one into a quarter, and so on. on each shot, you can then step back and analyze as follows:

"if i were a good player, i'd be able to shoot with a dime/etc tip. but nevermind that. which of these 4 cues will correct my stroke mechanic deficiencies enough to let me 'almost' get correct shape on this shot? ah, that one!"

since we now have multiple cues with varying tips, why stop there? i recommend you also have every combination/permutation of tip size/shape AND cue weight. the possibilities are endless!!:)
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Please, sir, forgive me for having a question that I thought I should pose to people more skilled than I. I guess asking questions, and having an idea(valid or not) are truly idiotic, and I should aspire to be one such as your self. Please, master of the game, direct me so that I may grow in your image and be as you are. I will always think of this in the future when I think of something I haven't heard out of your mouth first, for I know it will be wrong. I pity those who don't see the glory in your words, and who are foolish enough to try something a little different. Your'e right, maybe we shouldn't ever try anything different, as the 1600's are good enough for us. Praise be your kind word on my ignorant, foolish mind.
 
Neil said:
heh, heh, heh, not your first rodeo, is it?
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:D

After looking at the (relatively rare) constructive feedback on this thread, I do think the idea has it's flaws, and it might not hold up in the light of play.
 
td873 said:
Interesting thought. There are a few practical issues I see with this:
1) trying to remember that the opposite side of the tip is what you need when you shoot with a particular "curve." That is if you want to shoot with the dime radius (for any shot) the dime part needs to be rotated 180 degrees from the mark that shows where the dime portion is located. I suppose you could mark the opposite side of the cue, but then even this becomes cumbersome.
2) The tip would have "valleys" where the different tip curvatures meet. This includes where each curvature meets the center of the tip. If you hit in a valley, you may have unintended, or inconsistent results.
3) Actually shaping the tip into more than 1 radius seems very, very difficult.
4) It has been discussed that the optimal shape of a tip is based on the size of the shaft, but in proportion to the size of the cue ball. That is, for a 13mm tip, you would want close to a nickel shape, but for smaller shafts (perhaps 12mm), you would want a dime. I remember this being discussed some years back, but can't locate the thread. [although it may be an RSB memory].
5) consistency is the key to pool, so I wouldn't want to add another layer of complexity. I do not see the value added of a multi-curved tip in light of the additional copmlications it brings. The general rule for top echelon game play is keep it simple.

Lastly, IMO, a tip does adapt and shape to a style of play. This is both due to impact and chalking. However, I would estimate this at 95%+ impact and only ~5% for chalking (at least for my style of play). That is, if you shaped your tip, and could play without chalk for a week, your tip would "deform" and obtain its optimal shape. As another example, if you were to dip your tip into chalk powder, instead of rubbing it on, the tip would again obtain its optimal shape through contact. That being said, chalk is abrasive by nature, and can alter the shape of the tip to some degree. This would be based on your chalking style (light rub, heavy twist, side scrape, etc). I chalk the tip very lightly, just to add a layer of chalk. IMO, the abrasive qualities of this type of chalking have little effect on shape, as it would be closer to dipping the tip in chalk, rather than rubbing chalk on the tip. Others, however, put chalk on quite ferociously.

-td
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td873:
Thanks for your well though out, and well said post. I would like to thank you for actually putting your thoughts on the matter in.

Also, thank you to the others who have done the same, but I fear your posts might be lost in the mess that this thread looks to be.
 
eldowan said:
....actually putting your thoughts on the matter in.

Also, thank you to the others who have done the same, but I fear your posts might be lost in the mess that this thread looks to be.
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Don't underestimate the ability of most to pick out any gems these threads may contain.

Dave
 
I liked eldowan's idea. Although it might not be practical it is something more interesting than the countless mild dud vs triangle vs moori threads that repeat every week.

As others have pointed out, there does not seem to be an advantage of one particular shape of tip compared to another. One way to support this argument is to look at the pro players. They all play with different shapes of tips and I doubt you could correlate how well they can control the cue ball to the tip shape.

That said, if a particular player DID prefer and find useful a certain shape for a certain type of shot, the idea of a multiple curvature tip seems like it could have some merit.

I'll offer another suggestion along the same lines as eldowan's original post. What about instead of varying the curvature of the tip varying the hardness of the tip on either side. This could be done by gluing two half tips on the cue. So for instance if you drew the cue better with a hard tip you would place the hard side up on a draw shot, and if you followed better with a soft tip you would place the soft side down during a follow shot. This is only an example of course.
 
eldowan said:
Please, sir, forgive me for having a question that I thought I should pose to people more skilled than I. I guess asking questions, and having an idea(valid or not) are truly idiotic, and I should aspire to be one such as your self. Please, master of the game, direct me so that I may grow in your image and be as you are. I will always think of this in the future when I think of something I haven't heard out of your mouth first, for I know it will be wrong. I pity those who don't see the glory in your words, and who are foolish enough to try something a little different. Your'e right, maybe we shouldn't ever try anything different, as the 1600's are good enough for us. Praise be your kind word on my ignorant, foolish mind.
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i'll let it slide this once. next time you feel another great idea forming inside your minuscule brain, just say 'no.'

pool is not for everybody; have you tried bowling?
 
cplayermagic said:
i'll let it slide this once. next time you feel another great idea forming inside your minuscule brain, just say 'no.'

pool is not for everybody; have you tried bowling?
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This is an appropriate sentiment regarding your stay with us as well.

Having reviewed all of your posts, I feel that giving you one last chance is the humane thing to do.

The next nasty thing you have to say to a member here will see you removed from the site permanently.



You have a nice day, I suspect I'll be back to visit soon.
 
Russ Chewning said:
With that out of the way...

I HIGHLY encourage you to do something different that the generations of professional pool players that have come before you have.

Who knows? You just MIGHT find the holy grail of pool.

(Rolling my eyes really hard about right now.)

Russ
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I loved this about rolling the eyes. Great answer. I'm like you you really need to try this idea and then lets play for some serious cash.---Smitty
 
Russ Chewning said:
With that out of the way...

I HIGHLY encourage you to do something different that the generations of professional pool players that have come before you have.

Who knows? You just MIGHT find the holy grail of pool.

(Rolling my eyes really hard about right now.)

Russ
Click to expand...
I loved this about rolling the eyes. Great answer. I'm like you you really need to try this idea and then lets play for some serious cash.---Smitty
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Unless you plan on maintaining chalk that will produce a penny curvature, it's almost pointless to put so much work into it. 99.9% of your tip shaping is done with chalk. The shape of your chalk is the shape of your tip.
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sorry jude but i'm still shaking my head at this one. :eek:
 
You shouldn't laugh Jay. Jude's right!!!

In fact, here are some little known facts about the role that the seemingly innocent "chalk" has played throughout history!

1) The actual reason the Sphinx in Egypt is missing its nose is because archeologists attempted to perform a minor touch up in the 18th century with some billiard chalk!!! Damn thing lopped the stone nose right off!!!

2) The Leaning Tower of Pisa? Its only leaning because some kid threw a piece of billiard chalk at it!!!

3) The REAL reason the Titanic sank had nothing to do with an iceberg. That was just a story to cover up the fact that the ship once believed to be "UNSINKABLE" was sunk due to billiard chalk!

Apparantly someone in the parlor room dropped a piece of chalk during a game of billiards and it went through the floor in each of four levels of staterooms, one 1st class dining room, the boiler room, and eventually cracked the main hull!!! No joke.

4) August 6th, 1945. Bombers on a pane called the Anola Gay (named after the pilot's mother), flew over Hiroshima with the intent of dropping the first atomic bomb and ending World War II. Turth is, the bomb was a dud! It didn't work! Fortunately the on-board navigator was a pool player. He had some chalk in his pocket and they dropped that instead.

5) Remember that little story about a shooter on the infamous "grassy knoll"? Not true. It was a guy who threw some chalk at the motorcade!

Just thought you guys may be interested.

-B



...btw, producers of Discovery's "Deadliest Catch" are coming out with a new show - "Deadliest Chalk". Its not about something as wussy as lame-old king crab fishing. Its about the REAL deadliest job in the world: the men and women who make, pack, and distribute Master Chalk!!!
Every day eleventy-threeve innocent men and women die trying to get this deadly chalk to a poolhall near you!!!
 
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pharaoh68 said:
You shouldn't laugh Jay. Jude's right!!!

In fact, here are some little known facts about the role that the seemingly innocent "chalk" has played throughout history!

1) The actual reason the Sphinx in Egypt is missing its nose is because archeologists attempted to perform a minor touch up in the 18th century with some billiard chalk!!! Damn thing lopped the stone nose right off!!!

2) The Leaning Tower of Pisa? Its only leaning because some kid threw a piece of billiard chalk at it!!!

3) The REAL reason the Titanic sank had nothing to do with an iceberg. That was just a story to cover up the fact that the ship once believed to be "UNSINKABLE" was sunk due to billiard chalk!

Apparantly someone in the parlor room dropped a piece of chalk during a game of billiards and it went through the floor in each of four levels of staterooms, one 1st class dining room, the boiler room, and eventually cracked the main hull!!! No joke.

4) August 6th, 1945. Bombers on a pane called the Anola Gay (named after the pilot's mother), flew over Hiroshima with the intent of dropping the first atomic bomb and ending World War II. Turth is, the bomb was a dud! It didn't work! Fortunately the on-board navigator was a pool player. He had some chalk in his pocket and they dropped that instead.

5) Remember that little story about a shooter on the infamous "grassy knoll"? Not true. It was a guy who threw some chalk at the motorcade!

Just thought you guys may be interested.

-B



...btw, producers of Discovery's "Deadliest Catch" are coming out with a new show - "Deadliest Chalk". Its not about something as wussy as lame-old king crab fishing. Its about the REAL deadliest job in the world: the men and women who make, pack, and distribute Master Chalk!!!
Every day eleventy-threeve innocent men and women die trying to get this deadly chalk to a poolhall near you!!!
Click to expand...


He forgot to mention how his wife loves the fact that my chalk is bigger than his chalk.
 
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