You are playing small money matches and wonder if the person you are playing is baiting you in for higher stakes!! How can you tell if this is happening?
Many Regards,
Lock N Load.
Many Regards,
Lock N Load.
How can you tell if a person is sand bagging in a match?
- Thread starter Lock N Load
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When he wants to raise the bet, tell him to win it back like he lost it. If he all of a sudden shows you a new gear, quit. If he doesn't, keep on beating him. Soon enough, you will know his true speed.
If you can tell then he's not doing it, if you can't tell then you will never know.
If you end up broke at the end of the night by a guy who can't play and you were sure you 'should' have beat......
Then you just were.....
If you end up broke at the end of the night by a guy who can't play and you were sure you 'should' have beat......
Then you just were.....
A good hustler will never show a sign of sandbagging.
Now with that being said....
If someone suddenly starts making "lucky shots" and beating you consistently after you were winning... stop, pay the guy for the lesson and go practice. You will only drop more cash if you stick around.
I learned the hard way, many, many, many times. Afterwards I scratched my head and wondered how did he do that.?.? DUH.. I got hustled!
Now with that being said....
If someone suddenly starts making "lucky shots" and beating you consistently after you were winning... stop, pay the guy for the lesson and go practice. You will only drop more cash if you stick around.
I learned the hard way, many, many, many times. Afterwards I scratched my head and wondered how did he do that.?.? DUH.. I got hustled!
Sandbagging
1) If they have perfect form and stroke mechanics, but their playing doesn't quite match.
2) If they shoot most shots perfectly, then miss a fairly easy shot.
3) If they are sitting on 6 going to 7, and miss so you can get to 4 or 5 before winning the last game.
4) If you are sitting on 6, and they run 2-3 racks to get to double hill, and want to back it up and double the bet.
5) If you think they play better than you, but you win the first set.
6) If they, all of a sudden, make a shot or two, especially banks, that you were sure they would miss.
1) If they have perfect form and stroke mechanics, but their playing doesn't quite match.
2) If they shoot most shots perfectly, then miss a fairly easy shot.
3) If they are sitting on 6 going to 7, and miss so you can get to 4 or 5 before winning the last game.
4) If you are sitting on 6, and they run 2-3 racks to get to double hill, and want to back it up and double the bet.
5) If you think they play better than you, but you win the first set.
6) If they, all of a sudden, make a shot or two, especially banks, that you were sure they would miss.
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If he has a 70" cue, big ear phones on, and is wearing body weights and you are in the lead in the match, he may be sandbagging.
The best way to clock a guy is to watch all the things that are done with the memory muscle....another thing is to watch their paterns when they running a few balls...I've seen really good hustlers do all things to hide their stroke but still play perfect paterns...
If you can tell then he's not doing it, if you can't tell then you will never know.
If you end up broke at the end of the night by a guy who can't play and you were sure you 'should' have beat......
Then you just were.....
True, but only if he's doing it right. Few can mask it very well. All depends on how observant the target/victim is too. A superior player can play down to the opponent, but the inferior player has a hard time "seeing" the signs of whether someone truly is stronger than them. There are some things that are hard for anyone to hide, they are subtle, but they are there. Weaker players tend to measure skill by the results on the table. That's what the hustler is hoping for.
Hustler detection requires a keen eye, and a good memory. But most of all, a clear head. They count on you to get emotionally involved. To believe you can win, to be all consumed in competitive mindset, rather than stepping back mentally, and looking at the match as if you were a spectator. That's hard to do. What do you do? Try and keep focused on performing well and winning, or spend some of your thought process on analyzing what's going on off the table? It's distracting to be thinking about the game that's outside of the game on the table if you know what I mean.
I've seen guys lose badly because of that. They weren't being hustled. But they got paranoid thinking they were. They spent more of their brain power watching what their opponent was doing or not doing, than they did focused on the match at hand. Did that guy intentionally dog that shot? Is this leave an intentional two-way shot or was it just a lucky roll?
That's why memory is critical. Need to be able to catalog what a player can and cannot do. If they've been missing certain kinds of position routes due to speed or angle most of the time, but coincidentally hit these certain routes when it really counts, that's a sign. Observe how balls are pocketed? Does this player hit center of pocket, no rails? Can this player decide what side of the pocket to hit? When they are making shots they need to, how well are they being made? Do they look like perfection? If so, they are probably sandbagging. Sometimes players do that and it's a coincidence. But when money is in play, there's only so much coincidence. There's only so much chance, so much luck, so much coincidence - don't forget that. Does he tend to almost always miss to the "pro-side" ? Or how about this...do they shoot for side pockets and tend to miss, but when they get out, they use corner pockets instead for a similar positioned ball? A lot of lower skilled players use the sides which is the wrong shot, but hustlers do that too because it's easier to miss, causes botched positions and the missed ball more often goes somewhere unmakeable, instead of hanging in a pocket.
If you feel it or sense it, get out. Better safe than sorry. Trust your senses. Denial is the worst enemy. Don't make excuses for your opponent. "he got lucky" .."he missed that route or bank 3 times, but got lucky that time" ...no. If you feel you're getting to the table is undeserved, it probably is. Especially if other times, especially when it is a critical rack or situation, getting to the table is tough or when you get there it's miserable. What a coincidence?!? When it counts, you're screwed when coming to the table, when it doesn't count - you get all these easy outs...those are signs.
How the player addresses the CB matters a lot. They can make themselves look sloppy. Look like having a bad stroke, bad form or mechanics. But one thing that doesn't lie...where they hit the CB. That tip WILL hit the CB where they want it to. Even when they are intentionally missing. That is, at least to me, the measure of a skilled player.
Watch their eyes, watch their body language. When they are missing or messing up, do they look like they don't care or they look like they aren't as solid or applying themselves? But when it counts, they are locked in like a pro? I also like to observe the upper body. If the player is running balls and shooting great - are they perfectly steady? But when missing, magically they have serious flaws? Flaws like shoulder/head/upperbody movement? Flaws aren't often intermittent. Meaning, they don't just appear all of a sudden, then just go away for a critical series of shots. A certain level of excellence and skill requires a certain level of concrete solid muscle memory and fundamentals. That shows. If you know how to look for it. A player who has developed that, has to actually force it or work to be sloppy.
In a player's development, skills come in groups. There's no such thing really, as a learning curve. It's more like a learning stairway. A player is at a certain level, picks up a group of skills which then elevates that player to a higher level where they can now execute a group of shots, routes etcetera. If your suspected hustler pulls out shots or routes outside their advertised skill level, at critical times and makes them...beware. Beware also of sucker shots. Often, they don't want to try anything too fancy to get you suspicious. So they'll miss a ball, but the whole art and skill is, they miss the ball in such a way that leaves you bad. Or a sucker shot, where your miss will likely give them an easy shot so they don't have to make it fancy or in a higher skilled way. That's yet another sign, do you find yourself shooting their missed shots in such a way where your odds are low, and it will be a sell out? This happens naturally in a game, but if you feel it's a bit too often - it's no coincidence.
Entire books can be written on the signs of a hustler. This thread already has plenty to start on. But hey, the very very first sign is the most obvious and simple of them all. If that person wants to bet with you - it means they know they can beat you. That's why it should be an automatic response to demand as much weight as possible when someone asks you for a game. That is a deterrent and helps to frustrate them or at least weaken their position a little bit. That sort of thing gets criticized as "nitty" around here, but who asks for a game from someone they think they are going to lose to? All the trashtalkers and critics are so BRAVE with OTHER people's money. Do they ever share the terms of their bets when it's their money on the line?
It's different when you know the player you're gambling with. If it's someone you've known for a long time and there's hiding of speed, and you're fairly even, then you'd be a nit to always beg for unjustified weight.
1pocketman
Registered
when you are losing all your cheese you are being hustle
Hit the nail on the head. All about the patterns.
I don't think in this day and age that anybody really gets "hustled" as much as their greed backfires on them. I mean, come on, does anybody ever walk into a poolhall anymore that DOESN'T know about the art of the "hustle"? On top of that, you can quit anytime you want, so why not quit when it gets back to even? Nobody with any common sense about the "hustle" has to ever go home with an empty wallet. I'm not a poolhall rat, do not gamble (well okay, I did once, but I KNEW the guy I played was going to be better than me before we started and I refused to accept weight), but I can tell you that I could not be hustled if I did gamble. I simply know how to spot it and what to look for. I was in a poolhall quite a few years ago before my skill level was not nearly what it is now (and it ain't much now :sorry, when an older gentleman who had been playing on the table next to mine for about an hour asked me if I wanted to play some for cheap. When I said no he then asked if I wanted to just play for drinks, to which I again said no. I think (although some will disagree) that he would have thrown me a few "bones" so I may have re-thought the original offer and I simply wasn't going to get caught up in that knowing the limitations of my skills. Now other people, people who may be a bit greedier than I, may have taken up the older gentleman's offer as to put some green in their pockets. And...they may have gotten "hustled". It still happens today, but it's not the "hustle" that gets them as much as it is their own greed.
Just my $.02.
Maniac
, when an older gentleman who had been playing on the table next to mine for about an hour asked me if I wanted to play some for cheap. When I said no he then asked if I wanted to just play for drinks, to which I again said no. I think (although some will disagree) that he would have thrown me a few "bones" so I may have re-thought the original offer and I simply wasn't going to get caught up in that knowing the limitations of my skills. Now other people, people who may be a bit greedier than I, may have taken up the older gentleman's offer as to put some green in their pockets. And...they may have gotten "hustled". It still happens today, but it's not the "hustle" that gets them as much as it is their own greed.Just my $.02.
Maniac
I remember playing this goofy nerd of a kid once, you know, the 80's heavy metal black t-shirt, glasses, and acne all wrapped up in one. He wanted the 7 and out and I gave it to him. I won the race to 7 by one game for $50. After losing, he says let's do it again for $100. Again, I win by one. But I also notice that this guy gets EVERY 7 ball I leave him regardless of what kind of shot...............table length bank, 50 yard line, whatever............He wants to up the bet to $150 and I bite. This time he gets the better of me 7-5. I decided things were too fishy, and walk away having broke even. I still think I was the better player (could be wrong) and that even if I was being 'played', it was only for a spot. I don't think the kid could have beaten me even. He came across as a really nerd class borderline banger that needed the 7. I got out thinking that I could have walked all over him playing even, but I couldn't beat the 7 ball I was giving him.
dave
dave
Dave, I would never raise the bet if I was losing!
Unless I knew I could beat the guy I was playing. Nice input!
Many Regards,
Lock N Load.
Unless I knew I could beat the guy I was playing. Nice input!
Many Regards,
Lock N Load.
It is all speculation. Usually, Amateur actors can be identified but not the pro actors. One and only true hustler in USA has been " Frisco Jack ". Others tried but at the end of the day they were identified because of LACK of CONSISTENCY in their ACTING/DRAMA. Some times some players could be falsely accused/identified as hustlers and in reality they are not.
I think it's one of those things that, after years of experience, you just kind of get a feel for.
But despite all the "tell-tale signs", or "watch for this move" formulas, the simple fact remains that dumping and dogging it look exactly the same... for the most part.
Edit: This reminds me of a story about someone. When Danny Basavich came through my area years ago, he matched up with a local shortstop. This local guy let his pride get the best of him and, despite all the warning signs, continued to play Danny even over the course of 4 or 5 sessions - he probably needed the 7. Danny was laying it down pretty good, keeping the sets close and all that, but it was immediately obvious that he was not going to let the local player get past 5 games (going to 7) in a set. He would miss balls, miscue, whatever in the early racks, but once the guy got to 5 Danny would do whatever it took to win the set. In the end it worked out for him because this dude just refused to pull up, but Danny really should have lost some of those close sets early on and tried to jack the bet. He could have made a much bigger score, and maybe he wouldn't have cooked the rest of his potential action by coming back from 5-2 down in all those sets, which made him look like a stone champion.
Aaron
But despite all the "tell-tale signs", or "watch for this move" formulas, the simple fact remains that dumping and dogging it look exactly the same... for the most part.
Edit: This reminds me of a story about someone. When Danny Basavich came through my area years ago, he matched up with a local shortstop. This local guy let his pride get the best of him and, despite all the warning signs, continued to play Danny even over the course of 4 or 5 sessions - he probably needed the 7. Danny was laying it down pretty good, keeping the sets close and all that, but it was immediately obvious that he was not going to let the local player get past 5 games (going to 7) in a set. He would miss balls, miscue, whatever in the early racks, but once the guy got to 5 Danny would do whatever it took to win the set. In the end it worked out for him because this dude just refused to pull up, but Danny really should have lost some of those close sets early on and tried to jack the bet. He could have made a much bigger score, and maybe he wouldn't have cooked the rest of his potential action by coming back from 5-2 down in all those sets, which made him look like a stone champion.
Aaron
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