How Do Players Double-Dump?

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Ages ago I read Polsky's 'Hustlers, Beats and Others' (which examined pool hall 'society' in the '50s or '60s (from memory)).

A question occurred to me at the time, but I forgot about until something reminded me today:

Dumping (deliberately losing and splitting your backer's money with the other guy) and double-dumping (pretending to dump, but then winning) were/are both fairly common things.

But whereas dumping you could do secretly (miss a key ball or two), double-dumping, your opponent would know you'd cheated him, right?

That seems very dangerous. Was double-dumping really done 'openly', or am I missing some way of doing it secretly?
 
An acquaintance of mine, call him "C", actually did a double dump. C was a regular at a local pool hall but was getting ready for a career change. (He was going to go to law school.) He told everyone in the room that he had arranged a match with a good shooter ("D") from San Francisco who would come over with his backers. It had been arranged that D would dump the match and split his backers' money with C, and then C would split the take with the locals who had backed him. Then D won the match, which he was favored to win anyway, and C paid up. Then C blamed D for his perfidy to the local guys. D later paid C his share of the double dump.

Only one set of backers is in the dark. Everyone else is in on the deal.

In my experience it is not common, but maybe I just wasn't watching carefully enough. I rarely backed anyone.
 
I always have known double dumping as one player beating their backer out of money by losing on purpose and splitting it with the opponent in secret and also having a shill bettor bet high on the opponent and sharing those winnings in secret with the shill bettor as well.

I have never done this personally- just to be clear- I always bet my own whenever I did bet.
 
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mikemosconi said:
I always have known double dumping as one player beating their backer out of money by losing on purpose and splitting it with the opponent in secret and also having a shill bettor bet high on the opponent and sharing those winnings in secret with the shill bettor as well.
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I think that's two single-dumps :)
 
Bob Jewett said:
An acquaintance of mine, call him "C", actually did a double dump. C was a regular at a local pool hall but was getting ready for a career change. (He was going to go to law school.) He told everyone in the room that he had arranged a match with a good shooter ("D") from San Francisco who would come over with his backers. It had been arranged that D would dump the match and split his backers' money with C, and then C would split the take with the locals who had backed him. Then D won the match, which he was favored to win anyway, and C paid up. Then C blamed D for his perfidy to the local guys. D later paid C his share of the double dump.

Only one set of backers is in the dark. Everyone else is in on the deal.

In my experience it is not common, but maybe I just wasn't watching carefully enough. I rarely backed anyone.
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Oh, the mechanics are slightly different to how I understood it: Tell your backers the other guy's going to dump, instead of telling the other guy that you're going to dump. I can see how that might keep your thumbs intact!
 
The term we used to use for the most common type of double dump was “dumping the rail” and here’s how it worked.

A player and a friend would walk into the poolroom separately, hiding the fact that they even knew each other. The player would tell some of the rail birds that he planned to dump. The friend would book all bets on the opponent, who would be in on the upcoming swindle. When the opponent turned out to be the one taking a dive, the swindle was complete.
 
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And here is an undump that I was told Luther Lassiter used by one of his road partners (a strong shortstop, but not a top player).

Luther and his partner -- a top player, let's call him Eddie -- would be on the road before anyone knew what they looked like. Luther would go into town first and start at the bottom of the pecking order, which could happen because he looked so clumsy at the table. He would gradually work his way up eventually giving large but inadequate spots to the top locals playing better each match. The action would die down and Luther would continue to hang around for small games for a week or two.

Then Eddie would show up and win some at bank pool from the locals. The call would go out, "Somebody get Luther!" Eddie and Luther would end up in a match for whatever available money the town had plus whatever Luther had. And Luther would play some amazing pool, even better than the town had seen before. He'd be banking balls off the light shades and out of the spittoons. The only problem was that Eddie never missed. "Gosh, Luther, we're sorry you lost all of your money too."

Is it dumping when you play much better than your backers expect?

Technology ended all of that.
 
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sjm said:
The term we used to use for the most common type of double dump was “dumping the rail” and here’s how it worked.

A player and a friend would walk into the poolroom separately, hiding the fact that they even knew each other. The player would tell some of the rail birds that he planned to dump. The backer would book all bets on the opponent, who would be in on the upcoming swindle. When the opponent turned out to be the one taking a dive, the swindle was complete.
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But how did they get out with the money?
 
Bob Jewett said:
Is it dumping when you play much better than your backers expect?

Technology ended all of that.
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Outstanding! I particularly like the number of different standards of play they must have gone through :)

Do you think that sort of action would still be possible, but for technology making people recognizable?
 
Pin said:
But how did they get out with the money?
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The player and friend left separately, continuing the ruse. The see-through dump, one in which detection was difficult, was an art form back in the day, and often required the dumper to hit just a few intentionally poor shots. Lest we forget, Fast Eddie didn't realize Vincent had dumped in "The Color of Money" when they faced each other in tournament play, Obviously, if the swindle was discovered in "dumping the rail", the perpetrators were in harm's way.
 
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I heard of a rail dump where two big name players were playing one pocket for a large fictional number. They had an agent circulating and booking bets. Then a signal indicated who should win each game. The match continues as long as there’s paying customers.
 
I had a good friend (since passed) many years ago that related this story. One legend in town brought in a world champion from out of town and arranged a big match in Canada for him. All the boys in town who knew the champ got their bankrolls and crossed the border ... licking their chops. The champ dumped the rail boys. After they were busted, the first legend stepped up and said out loud to everyone there .... "Okay, let's bust 'em now!!" to his horse. The champ proceeded to take all the Canadian's AND the boy's money ....... my friend was HOT. He couldn't believe what he heard. But you don't mess with "muscle."
 
gregcantrall said:
I heard of a rail dump where two big name players were playing one pocket for a large fictional number. They had an agent circulating and booking bets. Then a signal indicated who should win each game. The match continues as long as there’s paying customers.
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This used to happen every year at the Expo on the 9 ball $100 challenge tables;)
 
sjm said:
The player and friend left separately, continuing the ruse.
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But in this scenario, the first player tells the rail he's going to dump, and then doesn't. So surely he has to manage some serious heat?
 
I have no knowledge of such things. The only thing I remember is reading about the double dump and the double-double dump in McGoorty. It reminded me of my childhood, arguing with my best friend about wether there existed such a thing in the spy world as a "quadruple agent" or if that was just a "double agent". It seemed really important at the time:LOL:.
 
sjm said:
Lest we forget, Fast Eddie didn't realize Vincent had dumped in "The Color of Money" when they faced each other in tournament play
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...lol. Everyone thinks making the ball is tough enough. Try just missing it just enough that an experienced player doesn't pick up on it. 😎
 
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