How Do You Prepare Phenolic Joints & Butt Caps

scdiveteam

scdiveteam

Rick Geschrey
Silver Member
Hi,

I have a question for CMs. How do you prepare your phenolics before applying the epoxy sealer coat on a new cue?

I have been using natural stain on the tip of a paper towel after sanding and it makes the black phenolic look like ebony under the clear coat. This was an area of my process that has been rock solid until recently one of the cues I sold last month had some lifting of the coating at the edge of the joint face.

I did not take a pass on the face after the finish as to disturb the edge in any way. I am wondering if the stain I was using ( a new fresh can of Minwax ) has more oil in it or something different. I always shake the can very well before I use it. After applying it I wipe it dry and wait till the next day as is directed on the can before I install a finish, or in this case the epoxy.

I am pretty sure that the epoxy did not adhere correctly in 2 very tiny edge areas that stick out like a sore thumb.

I am very curious as to what products other guys are using to get that deep ebony look out of the phenolics without any chance for a flaw in the joint after finishing.

Any thoughts in this area would be appreciated very much.

Rick G
 
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BLACKHEARTCUES said:
What grade of sandpaper do you use, for your final sanding?...JER
Click to expand...

Hi,

Very good question! I usually use 320 but I think I may have went up to 600 on this cue. That was one of things I had defined as a possible root cause.

What do you think, lower grit gets better adhesion? What grit do you like?

Thanks for any feed back.

Rick
 
The grit is likely the issue. 320 would have been better. I use 320 to lightly sand before I apply anything. 600 is too fine to get a deep adhesion.
 
qbilder said:
The grit is likely the issue. 320 would have been better. I use 320 to lightly sand before I apply anything. 600 is too fine to get a deep adhesion.
Click to expand...

Hi,

So your saying maybe 220 would be the way to go or lower?

Thanks for sharing I kinda had a feeling the grit might be the problem.

Rick
 
Have you considered a waterbased stain? Being that phenolic isn't very absorbent it could be some oiliness is left on the surface.
 
scdiveteam said:
Hi,

So your saying maybe 220 would be the way to go or lower?

Thanks for sharing I kinda had a feeling the grit might be the problem.

Rick
Click to expand...
rick, the only issue i had with finish not sticking on phenolic was trying to get too smooth, like over 400
learned my lesson then :thumbup:
180 & 220 now
then epoxy seal
 
BHQ said:
rick, the only issue i had with finish not sticking on phenolic was trying to get too smooth, like over 400
learned my lesson then :thumbup:
180 & 220 now
then epoxy seal
Click to expand...

I think I did use 600 grit for some stupid reason. I will be going to 220 in my procedure.

Also going to check out water based stain.

Thanks to all,

Rick
 
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I think I did use 600 grit for some stupid reason. I will be going to 600 in my procedure.
Click to expand...

You should check your procedure again.
I just let phenolic be phenolic. Why stain it at all?
Same with ebony...it is what it is. Buy higher quality supplies.....get higher quality results.
 
I wasn't reccomending 220, just pointing out that 320 is what I use. I suppose 220 would work just fine. I also agree with Dave. Why are you staining phenolic? My phenolic comes out very black & all I do is apply finish. Having the cue sanded with 320 leaves the pores open for the finish to absorb into the surface. Once the finish absorbs, it'll be black. Or in your case, the epoxy.
 
qbilder said:
I wasn't reccomending 220, just pointing out that 320 is what I use. I suppose 220 would work just fine. I also agree with Dave. Why are you staining phenolic? My phenolic comes out very black & all I do is apply finish. Having the cue sanded with 320 leaves the pores open for the finish to absorb into the surface. Once the finish absorbs, it'll be black. Or in your case, the epoxy.
Click to expand...

Hi QB,

When I apply the natural stain to the phenolic it gets as black as a cueball. When I put on the epoxy and finish same it looks awesome. I have been doing it this way for over 4 years. Before I used the stain, I seem to remember seeing the weave of the linen through the clear coat. Maybe that was before I started using double black. I will have to try it your way with the double black.

Thanks,

Rick G
 
I think the stain simply had/has better penetrative properties, which is why it brings out a solid black look. It's not a bad thing if your finish alone doesn't penetrate enough to give that look. The epoxy should, however, work the way the stain does.
 
Double Black Tubes.

Is it because the Double Black Tubes are mostly
Blotched with the White spots?
I have been putting out some high end caps with the White still
showing.
I understand that they would normally turn black with a finish over them, but,
for the last year, The manufacture was giving the suppliers the ugly Tubes.
Is this the base of the Problem?
They look worse "in hand".
They are like this in both Joint and Butt size..

Is my photo too big?
 

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I think it's a good chance of bait and switch....not that cue part suppliers would ever do that...but I think you're being told it's "double black" and it may not be double black. What is double black anyway?
My understanding has always been that double black meant the cloth that was being used to make the phenolic was also black.
If you are seeing the linen cloth as a white or gray color either the manufacturer is color blind or the materials being used are different than what is attempted to be pawned off as black.

jmho.............
 
CueCaps said:
Is it because the Double Black Tubes are mostly
Blotched with the White spots?
I have been putting out some high end caps with the White still
showing.
I understand that they would normally turn black with a finish over them, but,
for the last year, The manufacture was giving the suppliers the ugly Tubes.
Is this the base of the Problem?
They look worse "in hand".
They are like this in both Joint and Butt size..

Is my photo too big?
Click to expand...

I agree with you Alton, that was also the problems i have seen on the tubes, there are white that pops up sometime.
 
I usually use 220 grit for pre-finish sanding and have not noticed that problem.

Minwax Stain ... I tried it a few times but it never seemed to dry completely.

Seems just about the time you think you got it all down pat some problem jumps up and rocks your world.
 
Thanks to all, you guys have given me a lot of food for thought in this critical are of the cue build process.

Rick G
 
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