How many different cue-tip positins on a cue ball?

Bob Jewett said:
In my view, saying that there are only three different amounts of draw is a gross oversimplification that my be sufficient for raw beginners, but it is a false dogma and is better avoided by those who would like to play a lick.
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Scott Lee said:
Bob...Glad you included "In my view", because my description is vividly accurate for MOST playing situations, and has been learned and applied by several thousand students, many of which are state, regional and national champions. I would venture to say that they can "play a lick" or two.:rolleyes: :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Well, I suppose that would probably be the best offer for students who have never held a cue, touched a poolball and inhaled the musky aroma of a pooltable in their entire lives before.
 
?????????

Huh!!!! milameters Huh! Milameter=.0394X2=.0788 Now that does seem just a tad technical but what do I know.
Pinocchio
 
my question is this:

If we are only talking about center axis ONLY then why is 3 contact positions over simplified? Wouldn't speed of stroke dictate more of a reaction than umpteen different contact points?
 
prewarhero said:
my question is this:

If we are only talking about center axis ONLY then why is 3 contact positions over simplified? Wouldn't speed of stroke dictate more of a reaction than umpteen different contact points?
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I think what Bob Jewett meant was different amounts of draw, and what I meant was different types of shots. Of course you're right speed of stroke etc all attribute to how the ball reacts. BTW just center hit alone can produce different types of shots, for instance the jump shot. Just whack the core yeah? Then comes your point, how fast or how hard we whack.
 
I think the bottom line is, how many positions can one recall when setting up a shot. Bob says that are 12 positions for draw. Ok, but can one recall a particulary position..on demand. Anotherwards, when you get down on a shot, do you tell yourself that I need to hit this with a "number 6 draw"...no. At least I couldn't, but I could tell my self this shot needs two tips down worth fo draw, which might equal the same as a "number 6 draw".

I am sure Efren uses no method on figuring how much draw he needs, I am sure he just goes off feel and expierence (as most of us do), but we ameteurs can tell ourselves "2 tips down" as a reference point and adjust from there.
 
Okay kids, how many different possible racks of 9-Ball are there? Yes, how many different ways can the nine balls (or whatever remains after the break), be spread out on the table? No answer huh.

That's because you can play your whole life and you will NEVER see the same rack twice. Same for Eight Ball and One Pocket and Straight Pool. NEVER the same rack will be duplicated.

Why is this relevant? Because to play pool well, you must shoot an infinite variety of shots to accomplish the task at hand. A good player adjusts in minute fractions of an inch in how he addresses the cue ball and how hard he strokes it.

Contrary to popular belief, Pool is not a game of mathematics, it is a game of touch and feel.
 
One player telling another

jay helfert said:
Okay kids, how many different possible racks of 9-Ball are there? Yes, how many different ways can the nine balls (or whatever remains after the break), be spread out on the table? No answer huh.

That's because you can play your whole life and you will NEVER see the same rack twice. Same for Eight Ball and One Pocket and Straight Pool. NEVER the same rack will be duplicated.

Why is this relevant? Because to play pool well, you must shoot an infinite variety of shots to accomplish the task at hand. A good player adjusts in minute fractions of an inch in how he addresses the cue ball and how hard he strokes it.

Contrary to popular belief, Pool is not a game of mathematics, it is a game of touch and feel.
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Well said Jay. And to add to what you have said IMHO a player attempting a shot does not think in terms of the number of tips of English he will use. Rather tips of English is useful for one player to tell another how he would play a certain shot. JMO

Steve
 
shakes said:
Actually here, you aren't quite comparing apples to apples. Now let's take your example and apply it a little more accurately. Take a steel rod the same diameter as a bowling ball, and take a steel rod the same diameter as a ping pong ball. Now radius both ends of those rods with the same radius as the bowling ball. Press both rods against a sheet of paper and you will get the exact same size imprint. Applied to a cue stick, assuming the same radius and same hardness tip, the diameter of the shaft doesn't matter, except for how low the cue stick can go.
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Yeah, think of it as shaping a tip to the same curvature as a nickle. Doesn't matter what the tip diameter is, the outside cut of the tip is the same and will leave the same imprint on the cue ball.
 
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Scott Lee said:
I can answer that accurately for you mattman. The size of the contact between the tip and CB is appx. 1/8", or 2mm. This happens to be the same size as the red circle on a red circle CB. Hit the CB in the center (or anywhere on the axis) with a well chalked cue, and notice the chalk mark. It will be the same size as the red circle. The area width of available contact on the CB, for normal playing purposes (not including masse') is the width of a quarter, which measures at exactly 1". Many folks use the width of a stripe, which is also pretty accurate, but because you have two curved surfaces (tip and ball), aiming at the lowest edge of the stripe will result in hitting slightly above the actual edge of the stripe. Same for maximum top. Therefore there are 8 possible strike positions on the vertical axis, from maximum draw to maximum topspin. Basically we teach 7...one in the middle and three positions above and below. I suppose if you wanted to get extremely technical, you could presume overlapping this 1/8" circle, but that's pretty hard to comprehend, and even more difficult to reproduce.
This is why as an instructor I find it difficult to use the term "tips of spin". It is much more accurate to think in terms of 2mm circles...or center, and 3 up and 3 down.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Very well said Scott. It's amazing when shooting a shot that you really do not think about the necessary criteria that it took to make that shot work. Glad AZ has people like you that can explain the in's and out's of the game.:)
 
mattman said:
This is really what I want to know. When someone says, "this shot requires 1 tip below center". Ok..follow me here. If a tip diameter is equal to a shaft diameter and it's a 13mm shaft, that means the tip is 13mm or roughly 1/2" (13 X .039 = .507"). Imagine a circle that is 2.25" in diameter. Place a 1/2" dot in the middle, that's center ball hit. Now, when they say "shoot one tip below center, would that mean bringing it down 1/4" or 1/2"?
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This is actually a semantic problem, and not a mathematical problem. Once you define the meaning of the word "tip" you have your answer.

In fact, mathematical and logical decuction shows that you can strike the cue ball only (about) 1.25 "physcial" tips below the center point anyway.

For example:

As mentioned above, the tip and cue ball are curved surfaces.

When you aim extreme draw, you may think you are hitting the cue ball at the very bottom, but you cannot hit any lower than ~1/2" above the point where the cue ball rests on the table. This would be close to the theoretical maximum contact point.

Using this physical constraint, and the characteristics of the tip, chalk, and smoothness of the cue ball (i.e., polished or not), the maximum tip striking distance (for draw) is about 5/8" below the vertical center of the cue ball.

Using your conversion above, 5/8" is approximately 25% larger than a 13mm tip. Thus, if you talk about "tips above and below" you can only strike the cue ball at 1.25 tips below center...

As discussed, I believe that the concept of "tips off center" is an instruction tool to teach the effects of "off center hits," and should NOT be considered during play.

NB: contemplate this: you are viewing from a plane above the striking plane of the cue stick. I.e., you are looking at the top of the shaft and sighting over the top of the tip. This will affect how your brain "perceives" your draw contact point.

-td
 
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Scott Lee said:
... my description is vividly accurate for MOST playing situations, ...
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I pointed out a specific situation that clearly needed more than 3 amounts
of draw depending on the position target. You did not address that example.

Please do so.
 
prewarhero said:
my question is this:

If we are only talking about center axis ONLY then why is 3 contact positions over simplified? Wouldn't speed of stroke dictate more of a reaction than umpteen different contact points?
Click to expand...
By using Scott's 7 positions (3 above, 3 below, and center), you can cause the cueball to go in all the directions (at natural roll) that using an infinite number of different offsets enables. (In fact, one offset, the maximum draw position below center, will do.) But the catch is that you have to use a limited set of discrete speeds to achieve the same results.

For instance, to get the same direction at natural roll of an offset between max draw and the next one up (call them -3 and -2), only 1 speed can be used. To get the same direction for an offset between -2 and -1, only two speeds can be used - one particular speed at offset -3 and one particular speed at -2. For an offset between -1 and 0, 0 being centerball, only 3 speeds will yield the same direction at natural roll - one each at offsets -3, -2, and -1. You can only use these discrete speeds because the cueball has to have a particular spin/speed ratio before and after impact to achieve a particular direction, which it can only acquire while sliding on the cloth and having some backspin rubbed off.

That's why Bob Jewett included freezing the cueball to the cushion in his challenge proposition. You need flexibility not only in direction but speed to accomplish this.

By the way, the cueball cannot take on an infinite number of spins according to modern physics; it can only have a finite number. But this number is so large that it does an awfully good imitation of infinite.

Jim
 
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Scott Lee said:
I can answer that accurately for you mattman. The size of the contact between the tip and CB is appx. 1/8", or 2mm. This happens to be the same size as the red circle on a red circle CB. Hit the CB in the center (or anywhere on the axis) with a well chalked cue, and notice the chalk mark. It will be the same size as the red circle. The area width of available contact on the CB, for normal playing purposes (not including masse') is the width of a quarter, which measures at exactly 1". Many folks use the width of a stripe, which is also pretty accurate, but because you have two curved surfaces (tip and ball), aiming at the lowest edge of the stripe will result in hitting slightly above the actual edge of the stripe. Same for maximum top. Therefore there are 8 possible strike positions on the vertical axis, from maximum draw to maximum topspin. Basically we teach 7...one in the middle and three positions above and below. I suppose if you wanted to get extremely technical, you could presume overlapping this 1/8" circle, but that's pretty hard to comprehend, and even more difficult to reproduce.
This is why as an instructor I find it difficult to use the term "tips of spin". It is much more accurate to think in terms of 2mm circles...or center, and 3 up and 3 down.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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DING!

LWW
 
bcf said:
Ok I'm dead. I cannot use exactly 42.
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Since there are an infinite amount of numbers between 0 & 1, I'd hate to have to count out the rest of the divisions, don't have that much time left in my life.
 
Island Drive said:
Since there are an infinite amount of numbers between 0 & 1, I'd hate to have to count out the rest of the divisions, don't have that much time left in my life.
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How did you get to be so smart and good looking too? It's just not fair.
 
Island Drive said:
Since there are an infinite amount of numbers between 0 & 1, I'd hate to have to count out the rest of the divisions, don't have that much time left in my life.
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There's more than a simple infinity of numbers between 0 and 1, but that doesn't even translate into a simple infinity of spins available. Only a finite number can be realized.

Jim
 
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