How many different cue-tip positins on a cue ball?

[a9ballbr8k]

Shakes is correct. Pinochio your correlation between the bowling ball and ping pong ball was incorrect because they have different degrees of surface curvature. Please don't flame me, yet read on. Diameter size here does not matter as long as the curve of both tips are the same. i.e. dime shaped. This is because, when the tip touches the cueball, it's only the middle of the tip that is actually touching. This is true only of centerball hit though.

The contact point of the tip to the cueball when using english will be SLIGHTLY different when using the differnent tip sizes. I would think the larger diameter tip would have a MICROSCOPIC advantage when using english. Because when using english, it will not be the center of the tip making the contact point, but the outer part of the tip. The larger tip would be given the slight advantage at avoiding miscues because contact point will be slightly different than your aim and will be a little more off(more towards centerball) with the larger tip diameter. Follow me here because this doesnt make sense up until this part.

Take follow for instance. When you aim for the follow your tip will actually hit slightly lower then you aimed because of the diameter being larger(13mm opposed to 12mm). Look at how many people use a larger than normal tip on their break and masse cues. It's for better surface contact and lesser chance of a miscue when using extreme english. Make sense?

 

[a9ballbr8k]

I must need to go take a math refresh course, because I was taught

radius
diameter
and circumference meant something different than what is being describe here in this thread

no-sho = no idea

You are correct too because radius is actually half of diameter. It's the distance from center to edge.

It would be easier to understand if you replace RADIUS for DEGREE OF CURVE when reading the posts.

 

[shakes]

Take follow for instance. When you aim for the follow your tip will actually hit slightly lower then you aimed because of the diameter being larger(13mm opposed to 12mm).

Actually again, apples aren't quite being compared to apples. You would have to strike the same point on the cueball to compare the size of the striking area. Thus with a larger size tip, you would have to aim slightly higher. For a given contact point (not AIM point), radius of the tip, and same hardness leather, the surface area contacted will be the same.

Look at how many people use a larger than normal tip on their break and masse cues. It's for better surface contact and lesser chance of a miscue when using extreme english. Make sense?

Actually, most people use a larger than normal tip (actually shaft, but it's just semantics) is for greater tranference of energy. There is less loss through vibration as the thicker shaft is typically more rigid than the smaller shaft. Those wanting more surface contact should increase the radius (less curve) of their tip, or even make it a concave curve. (I really don't recommend either of these). The thing you have to understand though, is that the greater surface area struck, the less english you are going to apply.

You are correct too because radius is actually half of diameter. It's the distance from center to edge.

It would be easier to understand if you replace RADIUS for DEGREE OF CURVE when reading the posts.

9ball is correct here. It does get a little confusing talking about the diameter of the shaft versus the radius of the tip. When stating the radius of the tip, I was actually referencing the radius of curvature, which addresses the size of the curvature of an object. We just normally shorten it to radius.

 

[hejests]

Absolutely!!!!!! but 13mm ain't 12mm do you agree?
Pinocchio

You're looking at the wrong measurement here. It's not the diameter of the shaft that effects the size of the contact point (unless your swinging at the cue ball like a bat), it's the diameter of the curvature of the tip. If you take two shafts 12mm and 13mm that both have a hard tip and both shaped to a dime, they should leave the same contact point (or extremely close). The only way that changes is if superman is stroking and the tip is totally flattened to the point where the curvature is turned inside out during contact with the cue ball (the shaft would probably explode at this point).

 

[Pinocchio]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think I get it but my bowling ball still thinks my post was right. The way I explained it to my ball was if the post was right a nickel an a dime radius would be the same thing now my bowling ball gets it to. So In closing I guess everything Scott Lee said was correct but the part about Pred Z shaft being 11 1/2mm. So sorry an no flames here just all in fun.
Pinocchio

 

[mikepage]

Me thinks I'm reading a little BS here. Think about this. Let's use a little commonsense here. If a pingpong ball and a bowling ball are both round, that would give them the same radius? True or False?

false, as others have pointed out.

If you chalk a pingpong ball and press it against a sheet of paper and you chalk a bowling ball and press it against a sheet of paper, which one leaves a larger imprint? I'm going for bowling ball everytime.

We'll assign you to do the experiment.

Predator Z shafts and Z/2 shafts are both 11 3/4 mm and most conventional shafts start out at 13 mm. Does it not stand to reason that 13 mm makes more contact with the cue ball? That's why players use 13 mm instead of 12 mm in conventional shafts to get more consistent and even hit during play

.

Shaft diameter has nothing to do with it. The curvature of the tip (nickle or dime) has some effect. But for reasonably shaped tips, the biggest thing is the hardness of the tip. With a hard tip, you'll have a small contact area, and with a soft tip you'll have a larger contact area.

A bigger contact area doesn't mean much of anything. It doesn't reduce the infinite number of offsets available. It doesn't spin the ball more or less. It doesn't grip the ball better or worse.

It may--and this is my speculation here--lead to fewer miscues. I imagine a miscue occurs when less than some minimum fraction of the contact area is covered with chalk. This minimum fraction goes from zero at centerball to 100% at the maximum possible offset. So with Scott's three magnitudes of english (I'll call them 1 Lee, 2 Lees, and 3 Lees), the coverage requirement might be as follows

0 Lees (centerball) no chalk needed 0% coverage required
1 Lee (modest english) 40% of the contact area must have chalk
2 Lees (lot of english) 80% of the contact area must have chalk
3 Lees (maximum english) 100% of the contact area must have chalk

My point is that with random bare spots on the tip, these conditions are more likely to be met with a larger contact surface, i.e., a soft tip.

If you hit two tips below center with your stroke and draw your cue ball and a professional hits one tip below center and draws his cue ball, which players cue ball do you think will draw the furthest? Chances are it's going to be the professional. Stroke is the name of the game.

Maybe at Hogwarts, but not here in Muggle land...

 

[pooltchr]

So In closing I guess everything Scott Lee said was correct
Pinocchio

BINGO!!!!!
Steve

 

[Scott Lee]

Thanks Mike! Nice explanation!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[iusedtoberich]

When you touch a spherical object with another spherical object, the contact point is just that, a point. It doesn't matter if one object is a pool ball, and the second object is the New Year's Eve Apple.

The same is true of a spherical object touching a flat surface. They only touch at ONE point. This is scientific FACT. It is called a tangent point.

However, what does affect things in a collision is the elasticity of the objects, which means how much they compress during the collision.

Scott gave excellent information that is relevant to playing the game of pool. The tip size and shape are pretty much irrelevant, and result in a contact area of about the size of the red circle on a cue ball. That's because even though we have a large range of tips in the game, they are mostly the same in the greater scheme of things. Its not like the range of tips on our cues range from pillow foam to rocks. If that were the case, the contact area would vary widely when hitting a cue ball.

 

[billy-ks]

I went to a clinic with Tom Rossman this summer and according to him, the proper way to define 1 tip of english is this.
With the cue ball on the headspot, shooting straight to the center diamond on the other rail and making the cueball return to a point between the side pocket and the fourth diamond down the rail is one tip of engish.

 

[JimS]

So.... 'splain to me again... how far off center is one tip of english?

 

[jay helfert]

Technically if speaking in terms of math, there are an infinite amount of points that you can hit on just the vertical axis alone.

BINGO! We have a winner!

 

[Island Drive]

BINGO! We have a winner!

When I saw the title of this post I had to laugh, I didn't read the initial post but again, it made me laugh

 

[Bob Jewett]

BINGO! We have a winner! (lots and lots of different draw amounts)

In support of that view, put a ball a diamond from a corner pocket along a side rail and one ball-space off the cushion. Put the cue ball along the same side rail also a ball off the cushion and one diamond from the object ball. This gives about a 15-degree cut shot. Now, shoot the shot and put the cue ball on each of the diamonds around the table without hitting a cushion, except you want to freeze the cue ball to the cushion at the diamond. You can't get to the diamonds on your side of the table, or a few diamonds at the other end of the table, but you should be able to get to 12 or 13 diamond locations.

If you shoot the object ball straight into the center of the pocket, each of those shots requires a different amount of draw. That means for this shot, you need to be able to hit for at least 12 different amounts of draw. That will require about 12 gradations below center on the cue ball. I say about 12 because the closest two spots may be playable with center or very slight follow.

So, suppose you have only 3 different amount of draw. You can reach only three of those spots at most. If you want to be able to get to each half-diamond on the opposite side rail, the number of gradations doubles, etc. Anyone who has watched Efren play knows that he has a lot more than three steps of draw.

In my view, saying that there are only three different amounts of draw is a gross oversimplification that my be sufficient for raw beginners, but it is a false dogma and is better avoided by those who would like to play a lick.

 

[PoolSponge]

Given the cue is held on a given plane there are 64 potential contact points on a cue ball.

Tip size will make a difference to the amount of contact at impact. The tip is not harder than the cue ball, hence, regardless of curvature, there will be compression, ergo said compression is affected by the total area of the forward facing portion of the tip. The tip type will be a factor.

Take a well chalked 13mm phenolic tipped break cue and hit the cue ball, now take an Elkmaster or equally soft tip on another 13mm cue and hit right beside the first contact. Can you tell which was which after contact? Yes. Why? Compression.

Given than an even plane gives 64 potential contacts the average professional snooker player will use up to 32, professional pool 16, amateur 8, and beginner's 3.

 

[Neil]

.............

 

[3andstop]

Yikes! Aren't we getting a little over technical here?

I'll be the first to agree that there are a zillion places to hit the cue ball to gain a variety of results, but when I hear someone talk about a tip of right hand english or a tip and an half.... or whatever, I consider these explanations GENERALITIES. They are expletive guidelines, approximations for results give or take a player, that we can basically expect. Only slightly more accurate than the terms, "a tickle of right hand" or a "tad" of follow, or as my buddy likes to say, this shot is gonna need the "super zippers".

Lets be honest, as many places as there are to hit a cue ball, so are there as many different strokes, as many varied attempts at bridging a "parallel to the table" stroke, and as many individual ideas of what a particular speed of a stoke is.

Shoot the shot (whatever it may be) with the explained amount of english, and if it falls short or long for you, you have to adjust individually for it.

Correct amounts of english can only be achieved via experience and confidence in your ability and knowledge of a particular shot.

IMO these terms are a good measure of estimation, and no more. I don't feel they should be taken so literally. Just my opinion.

 

[alstl]

If a tip diameter is equal to a shaft diameter and it's a 13mm shaft, that means the tip is 13mm or roughly 1/2" (13 X .039 = .507"). Imagine a circle that is 2.25" in diameter....

I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ nor am I trying to fool anybody into thinking I'm a good player, but I'll bet many if not most top professional players don't spend much time thinking about that kind of stuff. They became great players through a combination of God given talent and hitting many thousands of balls. On the job training, if you will, instead of book learning.

 

[Snoogi]

If my memory's working right, there're about six million shots on a pool table, or maybe more. Every point we hit on the CB is among the six million. Frankly speaking many pros don't dig too deep into theories and formulas, some of them don't even know what's going on but they can make wonders out of the balls.

 

[Scott Lee]

In my view, saying that there are only three different amounts of draw is a gross oversimplification that my be sufficient for raw beginners, but it is a false dogma and is better avoided by those who would like to play a lick.

Bob...Glad you included "In my view", because my description is vividly accurate for MOST playing situations, and has been learned and applied by several thousand students, many of which are state, regional and national champions. I would venture to say that they can "play a lick" or two.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com