# How Much Is A Tip of English?

#### fastone371

##### Certifiable
Silver Member
Nice drawing Mr. Johnson, well done!!!

#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...if you hit the same spot on the cue ball from two different directions/angles, one of them is going to be closer to the edge of the cue ball (when looking at it down the line of the cue/direction the cue is traveling) and will therefore impart more spin.
When your tip moves at an angle across the shot line to compensate for squirt, the net force applied to the CB ends up being parallel with the shot line because of squirt - we angle the tip's path purposely to make this happen. The direction of this force (parallel with the shot line), not the stick's actual angle, determines how far from center we're hitting and therefore how much spin we're creating.

In other words, tip offset and amount of spin is measured from the "shot line center" of the CB, no matter how our cue (or out tip's direction of movement) is angled.

pj
chgo

#### Colin Colenso

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't think it matters much whether we say there are 3 tips or 1.5 tips within the range of offsets - so long as however many tips are possible, they describe common fractions of maximum English. I like using thirds; you might like fourths - but the universal constant (our "common language") is the fraction/percentage of maximum English that can be applied. That also has the advantage of focusing on the actual tip/ball contact patch (as opposed to movements of the stick).

pj
chgo

For descriptive purposes, I'd probably draw the line at 4:
Touch
1/3rd
2/3rd
Near Max.

Colin

#### pt109

##### WO double hemlock
Silver Member
This means that any "swiping" stroke can be duplicated without swiping, by pivoting first and then stroking straight along the pivoted cue angle.

pj
chgo

Hmmm...I think that's what I do...I set up for a cross stoke...but I warm-up stroke from that
position.

I also think the dome on your tip is a factor in 'tips of english'.....I use a bit rounder than
a dime....the part of the tip that contacts the cue ball is closer to the tip center than those
that use the nickel shape.

#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I also think the dome on your tip is a factor in 'tips of english'.....I use a bit rounder than a dime....the part of the tip that contacts the cue ball is closer to the tip center than those that use the nickel shape.
Yes, that's why I prefer to think in terms of actual contact points and fractions of maximum English. Then I just adapt common "tips" terminology to describe the fractions.

pj
chgo

#### Redneck Jim

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Maybe I'm missing something,
but it seems it should be easy enough to find what a personal definition should be....

Shoot the cueball from a diamond on the long rail to the opposite diamond on the other long rail
with what you consider 1 tip of english.
From everything I've ever heard, the ball should come back to one diamond from where it started.

Do the same shooting from the short rail.
The ball should come back to two diamonds from where it started.

For me, it is one full width of the ferrule/tip = one tip english.
This is using an 11.75 mm tip with a dime radius.

.

#### pt109

##### WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Maybe I'm missing something,
but it seems it should be easy enough to find what a personal definition should be....

Shoot the cueball from a diamond on the long rail to the opposite diamond on the other long rail
with what you consider 1 tip of english.
From everything I've ever heard, the ball should come back to one diamond from where it started.

Do the same shooting from the short rail.
The ball should come back to two diamonds from where it started.

For me, it is one full width of the ferrule/tip = one tip english.
This is using an 11.75 mm tip with a dime radius.

.
Results will vary....soft tips grab more...in my experience.
....and table conditions are a big factor....
The same hit on a Diamond will not go to the same place on a GC...
...and age of cloth and humidity....etc

#### 3kushn

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I determine tip position by the amount of effect across the width of the table.
1 Tip = 1 diamond effect
2 Tips = 2 diamonds
3 tips = 3 diamonds.
Down the length of the table the effect is doubled.

IMO if effect isn't measured then consistency is out the window. I would prefer to use diamonds rather than tips but few would understand that either.
Edit: Really shouldn't say it that way. Few talk about effect. Its easy to understand when pointed out.

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#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I determine tip position by the amount of effect across the width of the table.
1 Tip = 1 diamond effect
2 Tips = 2 diamonds
3 tips = 3 diamonds.
Down the length of the table the effect is doubled.

IMO if effect isn't measured then consistency is out the window. I would prefer to use diamonds rather than tips but few would understand that either.
Great minds...

I posted about that very thing a few years ago:

Calibrating Sidespin - 09-16-2012, 08:29 PM

How much sidespin (offset from CB center) produces how much "action"? Here's the answer for the tables and balls I play with at my local pool room:

Using a Centennial ball's stripe to show the miscue limits on either side, I hit many sidespin shots and checked chalkmarks afterwards (the chalkmarks are too faint to see in the pics, but they're under the Xs).

For the cloth/ball conditions at my local pool room, the CB rebounds about 1 diamond wider for each 3/16" (1/3) of tip offset, up to 9/16" (3/3) at the miscue limit. This is true whether I'm hitting hard or soft and whether I'm aiming straight across the table or at an angle (the amount of added angle is 1 diamond per 3/16" offset) .

pj
chgo

View attachment 27120

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Silver Member

#### dr_dave

##### Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
How much is a "tip" of English? To ask another way: how many tips of English can be applied without miscuing?

I like to think it's 3 tips maximum. That means 1 tip = 1/3 of maximum, which is what you get when you move the shaft's edge to center ball (a common "1st step" for English).

The pics below show the full range of English divided into thirds (white bullseyes) and a 13mm shaft contacting the CB at each of the thirds. Notice that for maximum English the tip's contact patch (about 3mm) extends slightly beyond the tip's edge (this assumes a nickel curvature).

pj
chgo

View attachment 68968
Excellent illustration PJ. FYI, I've added it (with a link) to the "tip" and percentage of english resource page, which includes illustrations of the many different ways people interpret "tips of english." I personally prefer using "percentage english" instead of "tips," which goes from 0% at center-ball to 100% at the miscue limit (e.g., 50% english is 1/2 of maximum). I think this is the clearest definition, and it doesn't vary with tip size and shape or with how people interpret "tips."

Regards,
Dave

#### SFC9ball

##### JimBaker PBIA Instructor
Silver Member
1 tip of English

1 Tip of english equal 1/8th of an inch or 3.175 MM, the size of the circle of a red circle cue ball.

#### 3andstop

##### Focus
Silver Member
at the risk of sounding crass, and I don't mean to at all ... I don't think about tips of english, nor did I even consider this something other than rank beginners were taught to give them an idea of how to move the CB.

This game IMO has to be a game of feel, and touch. Mechanically measuring these things is the opposite of a good thing. But, you guys play good, I'm sure ... why the concerns or thoughts of measuring english? I would have expected the question from a beginner. Do you guys that play really think about these kinds of things?

(honest question, no disrespect here)

#### bdorman

Silver Member
at the risk of sounding crass, and I don't mean to at all ... I don't think about tips of english, nor did I even consider this something other than rank beginners were taught to give them an idea of how to move the CB.

This game IMO has to be a game of feel, and touch. Mechanically measuring these things is the opposite of a good thing. But, you guys play good, I'm sure ... why the concerns or thoughts of measuring english? I would have expected the question from a beginner. Do you guys that play really think about these kinds of things?

(honest question, no disrespect here)

As I mentioned in my reply, I don't think about it as numbers while I'm shooting. But in order to communicate with someone else, we need "Terms."

It's like saying "I like a light cue." What's light? Talk in ounces and I can understand you.

#### duckie

##### GregH
Silver Member
at the risk of sounding crass, and I don't mean to at all ... I don't think about tips of english, nor did I even consider this something other than rank beginners were taught to give them an idea of how to move the CB.

This game IMO has to be a game of feel, and touch. Mechanically measuring these things is the opposite of a good thing. But, you guys play good, I'm sure ... why the concerns or thoughts of measuring english? I would have expected the question from a beginner. Do you guys that play really think about these kinds of things?

(honest question, no disrespect here)

This echos my thoughts plus even me telling someone how much tip of English I use does not mean that they will get the same amount of spin is I do.

The stroke is so critical in getting spin on the ball.

Saying a cue is light is subjective....saying it weighs x is objective. Saying using this much tip of English will get this amount of spin is subjective because of the differences in people stroke, and cue and playing conditions.

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#### bbb

##### AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
to me
i tip of english is the offset required to make the cue ball come back 1 diamond further than natural roll would going across the table long rail to long rail
ie
middle diamond long rail shoot at opposite middle diamond long rail
cue ball goes to 1st or 3rd diamond depending on right or left 1 tip english
im sorry i havent read thru the entire thread so if im repeating what someone else said i apologize

#### bbb

##### AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I determine tip position by the amount of effect across the width of the table.
1 Tip = 1 diamond effect
2 Tips = 2 diamonds
3 tips = 3 diamonds.
Down the length of the table the effect is doubled.

IMO if effect isn't measured then consistency is out the window. I would prefer to use diamonds rather than tips but few would understand that either.
Edit: Really shouldn't say it that way. Few talk about effect. Its easy to understand when pointed out.

its interesting that in spanish regarding billiards and pool the word they use is for "english" is not ingles but effecto or effect

#### 3andstop

##### Focus
Silver Member
This echos my thoughts plus even me telling someone how much tip of English I use does not mean that they will get the same amount of spin is I do.

The stroke is so critical in getting spin on the ball.

Saying a cue is light is subjective....saying it weighs x is objective. Saying using this much tip of English will get this amount of spin is subjective because of the differences in people stroke, and cue and playing conditions.

Exactly, even the same person shooting the same shot can alter X amount of tips of english merely by lightening or tightening their butt hand grip.

Its like asking how much gas does it take to drive 100 miles. Well, now that depends on the car among other things.

My point was ... how can the term be considered useful or informative and how can a player even think in those terms.

Too bad we didn't have some kind of "player level badges" or something that would help us understand who was asking what and at what level of play the envision things from.

#### 3kushn

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
at the risk of sounding crass, and I don't mean to at all ... I don't think about tips of english, nor did I even consider this something other than rank beginners were taught to give them an idea of how to move the CB.

This game IMO has to be a game of feel, and touch. Mechanically measuring these things is the opposite of a good thing. But, you guys play good, I'm sure ... why the concerns or thoughts of measuring english? I would have expected the question from a beginner. Do you guys that play really think about these kinds of things?

(honest question, no disrespect here)

I most certainly do and for a rather high percentage of shots playing 3C. Controlling the CB on many shots becomes almost automatic if you calibrated your English. I don't play pool but if I was faced with a 1/2 ball hit or close, in order to pocket the OB, clocking the CB can be very precise, when needing multiple rails for position. Or faced with a thin hit and need a spread of 1,2 or 3 diamonds across the width or 2,4 or 6 diamonds down the length. If you really get into it these 3 positions can be 6.

I'm a terrible pool player so maybe this stuff isn't that important. If you can feel it better than knowing it then keep on feelin it.

#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I personally prefer using "percentage english" instead of "tips," which goes from 0% at center-ball to 100% at the miscue limit (e.g., 50% english is 1/2 of maximum). I think this is the clearest definition, and it doesn't vary with tip size and shape or with how people interpret "tips."

Regards,
Dave
I prefer percentages of English too. But "tips" seems to be here to stay, so I'm trying to promote the translation of one into the other by asking the question "how many 'tips' of English are there?". Since the definition of a "tip" varies (as we see in this thread), so will the answer to that question, but it at least promotes an awareness of percentages.

pj
chgo