How Much Is A Tip of English?

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
I prefer percentages of English too. But "tips" seems to be here to stay, so I'm trying to promote the translation of one into the other by asking the question "how many 'tips' of English are there?". Since the definition of a "tip" varies (as we see in this thread), so will the answer to that question, but it at least promotes an awareness of percentages.
Another alternative to "tips" is a qualitative scale (which is really the same as a percentage scale):

- a touch of english (0-10%)
- a small amount of english (10-30%)
- a medium amount of english (30-60%)
- a large amount of english (60-90%)
- near maximum english (90-100%)

Based on some people's definition of "tips," it seems to me they should be using "diamonds" instead (e.g., 1 diamond of sidespin, 2 diamonds, etc.).

As others have pointed out, it requires lots of feel and experience to know what tip position is required for each shot to create the amount of sidespin needed (e.g., to create the desired rebound angle change off a cushion). However, it is helpful to be able to communicate this amount to others in a clear and meaningful way. As documented on the "tips of english" resource page, "tips" means too many radically-different things to too many people to be useful.

Regards,
Dave

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
When your tip moves at an angle across the shot line to compensate for squirt, the net force applied to the CB ends up being parallel with the shot line because of squirt - we angle the tip's path purposely to make this happen. The direction of this force (parallel with the shot line), not the stick's actual angle, determines how far from center we're hitting and therefore how much spin we're creating.

In other words, tip offset and amount of spin is measured from the "shot line center" of the CB, no matter how our cue (or out tip's direction of movement) is angled.

pj
chgo

I was answering the question assuming the same initial aim line (pre-swipe), not the same initial cue ball path post hit. Unless I am missing something I still theorize my answer was correct for my chosen literal interpretation of his question. That being said, it was probably best to answer in terms of same initial cue ball paths, or "which would give more spin for any particular shot", as you did, as this gives more practical application to the game and may have been what he really wanted to know or was getting at. Does this sound about right or did I miss something?

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think all of the above are fine as long as you clarify with something like, "He used a tip and a half of side spin where three tips is maximum before a miscue." Not everyone uses words the same way.

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Another alternative to "tips" is a qualitative scale (which is really the same as a percentage scale):

- a touch of english (0-10%)
- a small amount of english (10-30%)
- a medium amount of english (30-60%)
- a large amount of english (60-90%)
- near maximum english (90-100%)

Based on some people's definition of "tips," it seems to me they should be using "diamonds" instead (e.g., 1 diamond of sidespin, 2 diamonds, etc.).

As others have pointed out, it requires lots of feel and experience to know what tip position is required for each shot to create the amount of sidespin needed (e.g., to create the desired rebound angle change off a cushion). However, it is helpful to be able to communicate this amount to others in a clear and meaningful way. As documented on the "tips of english" resource page, "tips" means too many radically-different things to too many people to be useful.

Regards,
Dave

Being ableto hit within the 5 mentioned ranges is great but what is the effect. All I see is its more or less effect. How much or what segment do I need to do such and so.

Here's a comment posted a while back.

01-01-2009, 10:58 AM
Quote:

I'd like to add another easy system. Learn to clock the CB. In order to do this you need to calibrate your English. In other words you need to determine, while shooting across the short rail, how much spin (or where to hit the CB) is required for the CB to return 1 diamond, 2 diamonds and 3 diamonds from your starting diamond. By the way 3 diamonds is a little difficult. Once you have that down pat many shots can can be made simply by hitting 1/2 ball and clocking the CB accordingly. If third rail contact is the first diamond use one diamond spin with half ball hit. Great for short angle shots and little easier than the 5 system. Also experiment with clocking and using the tangent lines off the first OB. Deadly accurate for drop in's. Little Joe's DVD on CB control gives a great lesson on the pool side of this and the use of tangent lines. I think his site is pooliq.net ??

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Being ableto hit within the 5 mentioned ranges is great but what is the effect. All I see is its more or less effect. How much or what segment do I need to do such and so.

Here's a comment posted a while back.

01-01-2009, 10:58 AM
Quote:

I'd like to add another easy system. Learn to clock the CB. In order to do this you need to calibrate your English. In other words you need to determine, while shooting across the short rail, how much spin (or where to hit the CB) is required for the CB to return 1 diamond, 2 diamonds and 3 diamonds from your starting diamond. By the way 3 diamonds is a little difficult. Once you have that down pat many shots can can be made simply by hitting 1/2 ball and clocking the CB accordingly. If third rail contact is the first diamond use one diamond spin with half ball hit. Great for short angle shots and little easier than the 5 system. Also experiment with clocking and using the tangent lines off the first OB. Deadly accurate for drop in's. Little Joe's DVD on CB control gives a great lesson on the pool side of this and the use of tangent lines. I think his site is pooliq.net ??
I suggested the ranges only as a way to describe how much english is being applied.

In actual play, choosing the tip position on the CB for a given shot depends on many factors (spidespin loss over distance based on speed, cloth and rail conditions, cut angle, angle to the cushion, sidespin-intensifying effect due to drag from a below-center hit or topspin follow, etc.). However, once you've chosen the tip position, one should be able to describe where the tip is on the CB with words. I was just suggesting one of many ways to do that.

Like you, I like to decide on tip position based on benchmark-shot tests like the across-the-table-with-maximum-sidespin shot and 1/2-ball-hit benchmark tracks.

FYI, there's lots of good advice concerning CB control (e.g., tangent line, natural angle, trisect draw, etc.) in many excellent online Youtube videos (from Mike Page, Ralph Eckert, me, and others). FYI, to those interested, embeds of and links to many of them can be found on the cue ball control resource page.

Regards,
Dave

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I think all of the above are fine as long as you clarify with something like, "He used a tip and a half of side spin where three tips is maximum before a miscue." Not everyone uses words the same way.
If everybody would always add "...in other words half (or whatever) of maximum", pretty soon we'd all be weaned from the "tip".

pj
chgo

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That's exactly the way I define it (and the way we teach it)...3 tips is maximum...and then you're hitting possible miscue zones.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

1 Tip of english equal 1/8th of an inch or 3.175 MM, the size of the circle of a red circle cue ball.

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
1 Tip of english equal 1/8th of an inch or 3.175 MM, the size of the circle of a red circle cue ball.
Scott Lee:
That's exactly the way I define it (and the way we teach it)...3 tips is maximum...and then you're hitting possible miscue zones.
Actual thirds are 3/16" apart - fourths are 1/8" apart (as in the drawing).

pj
chgo

View attachment 33541

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androd

androd
Silver Member
Exactly, even the same person shooting the same shot can alter X amount of tips of english merely by lightening or tightening their butt hand grip.

Its like asking how much gas does it take to drive 100 miles. Well, now that depends on the car among other things.

My point was ... how can the term be considered useful or informative and how can a player even think in those terms.

In my post I stated how much was a tip for me. You should use some of the info here and figure how much is a tip for you.

When practicing you'll soon see what is necessary and form muscle memory for those shots you have a problem with, If any?
Rod.

duckie

GregH
Silver Member
In my post I stated how much was a tip for me. You should use some of the info here and figure how much is a tip for you.

When practicing you'll soon see what is necessary and form muscle memory for those shots you have a problem with, If any?
Rod.

Why even brother with trying to know how much tip does what?

I have never thought in terms of tips, just how I need to stroke the CB to make it do what I want......and am pretty good at it too.

When I do explain what type of spin was used....it is always in terms like high right, low inside, left, right, draw, follow and so on. it is then up to the person to figure out the how to use that spin.

How I achieve the necessary high right to make the CB do what I want, is gonna be different than other people.....cause no one else but me has my stroke.

I've watch a lot of 3 cushions players over the years where I play. Now those guys have a stroke. I use some of their stroke style in my play.

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
Hmmm...I think that's what I do...I set up for a cross stoke...but I warm-up stroke from that
position.

I also think the dome on your tip is a factor in 'tips of english'.....I use a bit rounder than
a dime....the part of the tip that contacts the cue ball is closer to the tip center than those
that use the nickel shape.

Dome will not factor in but tip hardness can... A regular leather tip will have about a 3mm contacts patch... Phenolic it will go down to 1mm... It only make sense that maybe a super hard non phenolc may be around 2mm... So far I have not seen that happen but it is plausable...

As far as pivoting prior to the shot being the same as a swiping.. No not unless you are hitting the ball with pace or you are using a hard tip... If struck softly there is adequate contact time using softer tips to carry the cueball along with the swipe while it is still connected to the cueball.....

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Dome will not factor in but tip hardness can... A regular leather tip will have about a 3mm contacts patch... Phenolic it will go down to 1mm... It only make sense that maybe a super hard non phenolc may be around 2mm... So far I have not seen that happen but it is plausable...

As far as pivoting prior to the shot being the same as a swiping.. No not unless you are hitting the ball with pace or you are using a hard tip... If struck softly there is adequate contact time using softer tips to carry the cueball along with the swipe while it is still connected to the cueball.....

can you back that up with objective data or is it your "impression/opinion"

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Dome will not factor in but tip hardness can... A regular leather tip will have about a 3mm contacts patch... Phenolic it will go down to 1mm... It only make sense that maybe a super hard non phenolc may be around 2mm... So far I have not seen that happen but it is plausable...

As far as pivoting prior to the shot being the same as a swiping.. No not unless you are hitting the ball with pace or you are using a hard tip... If struck softly there is adequate contact time using softer tips to carry the cueball along with the swipe while it is still connected to the cueball.....

Why the dome is important to me is that the contact is closer to the center of the tip...
....therefore more power on all spin shots.
If the tip is flat, the contact point is too close to the edge, creating a glancing blow.

I can do some of the fancy shots like the Jimmy Moore/Mike Massey draws...
....but I can't do them if the tip is too flat, no matter how good the tip is.

I wasn't aware of the terms pivoting and swiping till I started reading AZ....
....but I do both...
...I see it as letting the tip go with the spin...if I put right english on a ball, the tip
finishes even farther to the right on the follow-through.

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
can you back that up with objective data or is it your "impression/opinion"

Contact time on a soft tip will be in excess of 3ms... The cueball will move several millimeters during said contact so any deviations in the tip path during this time will carry the ball along with the deviation... There are Russian videos confirming longer contact times with softer tips and softer strokes..

The debate then becomes will this increase english or just require a different aiming adjustment... Since english seems to be pretty consistent for a given offset and there have been no studies to prove or disprove addition spin during swiping I will leave that for later discussion....

I will say however that with the tip dragging the cueball along during a swipe it will have a cancelling effect on the deflection... I think this possibly explain why the swiping/swerve has been employed for years by many old timers and self taught players pryor to the explosion of training information that cover mainly classic fundamentals.

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
Why the dome is important to me is that the contact is closer to the center of the tip...
....therefore more power on all spin shots.
If the tip is flat, the contact point is too close to the edge, creating a glancing blow.

I can do some of the fancy shots like the Jimmy Moore/Mike Massey draws...
....but I can't do them if the tip is too flat, no matter how good the tip is.

I wasn't aware of the terms pivoting and swiping till I started reading AZ....
....but I do both...
...I see it as letting the tip go with the spin...if I put right english on a ball, the tip
finishes even farther to the right on the follow-through.

OK that part I follow in that the dome will change the tip offset on what part of the tip bites the cueball if it's overly flat..... In testing there is almost no difference between a dime or nickle because of tip compression but there is a difference and that small difference can mean the world when you are trying to skate on the edge of the razor blade and hit at the misscue limit.....

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Contact time on a soft tip will be in excess of 3ms... The cueball will move several millimeters during said contact so any deviations in the tip path during this time will carry the ball along with the deviation... There are Russian videos confirming longer contact times with softer tips and softer strokes..

The debate then becomes will this increase english or just require a different aiming adjustment... Since english seems to be pretty consistent for a given offset and there have been no studies to prove or disprove addition spin during swiping I will leave that for later discussion....

I will say however that with the tip dragging the cueball along during a swipe it will have a cancelling effect on the deflection... I think this possibly explain why the swiping/swerve has been employed for years by many old timers and self taught players pryor to the explosion of training information that cover mainly classic fundamentals.
While it is true that softer hits get a longer contact time, it is also true that on softer shots the tip is on the cue ball for a shorter distance in spite of the longer contact time. You can figure that tip and ball travel together over a distance of about three times the amount the tip is compressed at maximum compression.

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
While it is true that softer hits get a longer contact time, it is also true that on softer shots the tip is on the cue ball for a shorter distance in spite of the longer contact time. You can figure that tip and ball travel together over a distance of about three times the amount the tip is compressed at maximum compression.
:thumbup:

Just got my new load cells in and will start looking at amount of compression at different amounts of force for different tips.... Will likely be bothering you when I get everything fabricated to confirm some numbers for when I start... You missed a good one this last week in Jersey!!!!

Chris

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Contact time on a soft tip will be in excess of 3ms... The cueball will move several millimeters during said contact so any deviations in the tip path during this time will carry the ball along with the deviation... There are Russian videos confirming longer contact times with softer tips and softer strokes..

The debate then becomes will this increase english or just require a different aiming adjustment... Since english seems to be pretty consistent for a given offset and there have been no studies to prove or disprove addition spin during swiping I will leave that for later discussion....

I will say however that with the tip dragging the cueball along during a swipe it will have a cancelling effect on the deflection... I think this possibly explain why the swiping/swerve has been employed for years by many old timers and self taught players pryor to the explosion of training information that cover mainly classic fundamentals.

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bdorman

Silver Member
While it is true that softer hits get a longer contact time, it is also true that on softer shots the tip is on the cue ball for a shorter distance in spite of the longer contact time. You can figure that tip and ball travel together over a distance of about three times the amount the tip is compressed at maximum compression.

Interesting. Thanks.

duckie

GregH
Silver Member
What is a soft hit? What is the cue speed for a soft hit v a hard hit v a mediun hit?

I always find I interesting that no one ever states what the actual speed of the cue is during these test.

Or even CB speeds. So how can you state contact time is xxx yet cannot give as exact of details of the other variables in putting spin on a ball. A soft stroke is subjective.