I can agree with most everything that you said. I still feel that luck plays a slightly bigger part in poker than in pool, although there are obviously times that it goes the other way.
How much luck is in pool?
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I can agree with most everything that you said. I still feel that luck plays a slightly bigger part in poker than in pool, although there are obviously times that it goes the other way.
Ouch!
We see an entire match and the winner and loser in a pool tournament decided by one shot pretty often. I have to admit that when I talk about luck in pool I'm using what I think is a generally accepted standard, a shot had a different result than expected. Looking at it from another perspective, there is usually some luck in a break shot, just more than we can plan for going on in the shot. Arguably that is the last shot where luck is involved. Right or wrong we caused everything that happens in a shot and except for rare instances like rebreaks and shots that involve many balls, we could have anticipated the result of the shot had we taken time to work it out.
By the same token we can argue there is no luck in poker. When only one card will give the other person the winning hand and it falls on the river, that is going to happen about one time in fifty on average. That isn't really luck, just percentages working out although when we lose to a one card out we howl at the moon and curse the poker gods. One of the things needed to play decent poker is to realize that the hand that just cost me most or all of my stack was played correctly and I'll need to play the same hand exactly the same next time. Playing no limit with a community board a player had aces full of kings, a pretty stout hand. He managed to get me all in on the pot. At showdown I flipped over the fourth ace. He had considered how poor the odds were of me having the last ace and played his hand properly by the math. He will be a winner long term playing exactly as he played. The odds were far stronger of me having a pocket pair than the fourth ace, or maybe I was just holding a naked king for top kicker. He was right getting his money in with kings, just bad timing.
Hu
We see an entire match and the winner and loser in a pool tournament decided by one shot pretty often. I have to admit that when I talk about luck in pool I'm using what I think is a generally accepted standard, a shot had a different result than expected. Looking at it from another perspective, there is usually some luck in a break shot, just more than we can plan for going on in the shot. Arguably that is the last shot where luck is involved. Right or wrong we caused everything that happens in a shot and except for rare instances like rebreaks and shots that involve many balls, we could have anticipated the result of the shot had we taken time to work it out.
By the same token we can argue there is no luck in poker. When only one card will give the other person the winning hand and it falls on the river, that is going to happen about one time in fifty on average. That isn't really luck, just percentages working out although when we lose to a one card out we howl at the moon and curse the poker gods. One of the things needed to play decent poker is to realize that the hand that just cost me most or all of my stack was played correctly and I'll need to play the same hand exactly the same next time. Playing no limit with a community board a player had aces full of kings, a pretty stout hand. He managed to get me all in on the pot. At showdown I flipped over the fourth ace. He had considered how poor the odds were of me having the last ace and played his hand properly by the math. He will be a winner long term playing exactly as he played. The odds were far stronger of me having a pocket pair than the fourth ace, or maybe I was just holding a naked king for top kicker. He was right getting his money in with kings, just bad timing.
Hu
I'm not saying there isn't luck in straight pool, but I feel it plays a very small factor in this game.
if you play 9 ball you know luck plays a big factor, if you can't stand it why don't you play other games?
As far as the comparison to poker goes, it depends on how you look at it. Do you equate one hand of poker to one game of pool? Or are we calling a session of poker with possibly hundreds of hands similar to a race in pool? How long of a race?
At the one hand equals one game level, poker players have a huge advantage in being allowed to fold. Just imagine if you could play pool that way: Playing $20 a game, if you don't like the way a rack spreads out on the break, you just hand over $1 and rack again... :smile:
I don't think the two games have much in common, but it's still kind of fun to consider.
At the one hand equals one game level, poker players have a huge advantage in being allowed to fold. Just imagine if you could play pool that way: Playing $20 a game, if you don't like the way a rack spreads out on the break, you just hand over $1 and rack again... :smile:
I don't think the two games have much in common, but it's still kind of fun to consider.
Personally, I like playing them all. Even 9 ball. IMO, 9 ball is the easiest to put together packages in if they are breaking well, so there's some excitement in that. You just have to be prepared for the possibility of spending an entire match kicking at balls or watching your opponent run out. Even then, if you play long enough, the luck factor tends to level out eventually.
JC
Coos Cues
Here's my take. A person can learn the rules of poker, read a book or two and play online for six months or so and have a reasonable chance to place high in any tournament, anywhere. Maybe they can't make a living at it over time but it has been shown over and over again what I say is true about a one time phenom finish.
Can a person do this with a pool cue?
There in lies all the logic one needs to conclude poker has more luck involved than pool. Everything else is just an over analysis trying to come up with a conclusion not supported by evidence.
I'm not sure I understand your examination on how luck is misused, but I haven't had my Red Bull yet. I do think one way to look at luck is that it's an intangible perception based on an unlikely outcome when put to mathematical chance.
For example, in 8 ball... My opponent is on the 8, but I (a hack player) am up and on my last ball. My shot is difficult (having to cut the ball back into the blind far corner with speed because the cut is thin), and I botch the shot to pocket the 8-ball...
I can't reasonably predict how the balls will land... But I can say statistically there is only a very low chance of my object ball landing exactly between the cue ball and the 8-ball, which would prevent my opponent from directly seeing the 8.
But if that leave does occur (it did in my match) I think it's fair to say that it was lucky for me, or bad luck for my opponent, considering the odds are relatively slim for that leave. My opponent won by the way, he was able to cleanly curve around my object ball and make the 8 into the near by pocket for the match winning shot.
Anyway, I do agree that the term luck can be misused; for example… A shooter has to shoot a bank on the object ball into the side-pocket. Shooter gives the shot a little extra speed to make sure if the target side pocket is missed on the short side, the object ball still may roll into the other pocket.
Yes, there was no certainty in my shot missing and making it into the secondary pocket, and some might say I was lucky, I would say it’s not luck in that case because I knew there was a reasonable chance of the ball going in to one or the other pocket.
taking that tack
If we want to look at evidence, as I mentioned less than two percent luck to determine lifetime earnings playing poker proven by computer modeling. How many people on this forum feel nine ball is less than two percent luck?
Almost nobody can read a book or two and play online for six months and be competitive, more likely nobody. A fluke win or placing is possible but it is only a fluke.Their chances of winning or placing high in a major tournament are maybe the same as winning the lotto. I have read a dozen books and played online over a year. I'm a long way from a competitive poker player. In less time than that I went from knowing almost nothing about computer networks to being a MasterCNE and network system engineer.
I was a long ways further along playing pool after a year and a half than I am playing poker. There wasn't a week that went by that I didn't turn a nice profit playing pool. I wish I could say the same about poker!
Hu
If we want to look at evidence, as I mentioned less than two percent luck to determine lifetime earnings playing poker proven by computer modeling. How many people on this forum feel nine ball is less than two percent luck?
Almost nobody can read a book or two and play online for six months and be competitive, more likely nobody. A fluke win or placing is possible but it is only a fluke.Their chances of winning or placing high in a major tournament are maybe the same as winning the lotto. I have read a dozen books and played online over a year. I'm a long way from a competitive poker player. In less time than that I went from knowing almost nothing about computer networks to being a MasterCNE and network system engineer.
I was a long ways further along playing pool after a year and a half than I am playing poker. There wasn't a week that went by that I didn't turn a nice profit playing pool. I wish I could say the same about poker!
Hu
Poker ???
I could have never been able to get into poker because it seems to me that once you learn the rules and the odds that's all there is to it.
What constitutes a "good" poker player? One that wholly adheres to the odds or one that on occasion takes a flyer?
Or does it really boil down to bluffing?
Would someone please explain this to me?
I love the stress of a really tough (read evenly matched) pool game. Poker has always seemed so dry.So much time spent waiting for the right situation.
I must be wrong.
Please tell me what it is you love about poker!
I could have never been able to get into poker because it seems to me that once you learn the rules and the odds that's all there is to it.
What constitutes a "good" poker player? One that wholly adheres to the odds or one that on occasion takes a flyer?
Or does it really boil down to bluffing?
Would someone please explain this to me?
I love the stress of a really tough (read evenly matched) pool game. Poker has always seemed so dry.So much time spent waiting for the right situation.
I must be wrong.
Please tell me what it is you love about poker!
Luck has nothing to do with skill. The fact that someone gets lucky or unluck because a ball rolls a certain way has nothing to do with the skill of the person coming to the table. In the case of the Buddy/Dennis match mentioned earlier, you might consider the fact that the ball hung in the hole unlucky for Dennis, but conversely it was lucky for Buddy. If your skill is at that high of a level, maybe it wasn't bad luck that the ball didn't fall for Dennis, maybe he just didn't execute the shot properly to make it. I agree with Hu regarding the statistics associated with poker. I would consider any hand where a person wins and was statistically the underdog to have been lucky for that hand. I have a buddy who thinks he is the most unlucky person on earth relative to "getting a roll". He is so focused on it that he loses concentration and creates them himself, and he never acknowledges when he gets a good roll.
I wonder how factoring in multiple opponents changes things. In poker you could be playing against several players at once who all carry their own different amount of luck/skill. In pool its usually only one, or in earls case 1 opponent and the crowd.
I concur. No such thing as LUCK. Either you hit it good and make the shot or you don't.
No such thing as "Rolls" in my book either.
The balls roll where YOU hit them. Not some weird unknown source!!
"There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe."
To me, luck and bad rolls are the most overly used trerms in pool. So many times when apparently out someone will shoot ashot and run into balls and hope for the good break. If it goes badly and scartches or hooks himself he begins to cry bad roll when often it was a dumb shot.
A guy has a shot to get out and plays a bad safety. The other kicks and hooks him. Again bad luck or dumb shot.
Nine ball changed a lot with the rules change. With two shot shoot out and he push the better player and shot maker had a huge advantage. The one foul has created players who would have been short stops then.
Too many tody are waiting for someone to miss to win the game. When it happens, that to me is just blind luck.
Nine ball is much luckier than 10 ball? I have a hard time buying that one.
Luck???
Barring any equipment problems which might affect a roll, there is no luck in Pool.
For every action, there is a reaction. For every shot played, the rolls occur based on how that shot was shot. If you miss, it's because you shot the shot wrong. If you scratch, its because you shot the shot wrong. If you accidently hook yourself, its because you shot the shot wrong.
If you have 'bad luck', just ask any good player watching you how you could of avoided the 'bad luck' and they will tell you. Most of the time, bad luck, as you refer to it, is a result of improper english used or something the player overlooked when he shot the shot.
In Pool, as well as in life, You reap what you sew.
Barring any equipment problems which might affect a roll, there is no luck in Pool.
For every action, there is a reaction. For every shot played, the rolls occur based on how that shot was shot. If you miss, it's because you shot the shot wrong. If you scratch, its because you shot the shot wrong. If you accidently hook yourself, its because you shot the shot wrong.
If you have 'bad luck', just ask any good player watching you how you could of avoided the 'bad luck' and they will tell you. Most of the time, bad luck, as you refer to it, is a result of improper english used or something the player overlooked when he shot the shot.
In Pool, as well as in life, You reap what you sew.
A very good question, hard to find a good answer
Playing against multiple soft players is a poker player's dream. Playing against equal or better players means that odds are maybe 9:1 against you winning at a full table just looking at raw odds. Never-the-less there are many more poker players making a living at it than pool players. That is partially because skill matters far more than luck and partially because there is a hell of a lot more money in poker right now. My pool skills aren't what they used to be and there isn't enough money in pool to say grace over, two good reasons to play poker instead of pool. Sitting in my easy chair with my feet propped up was another plus playing online!
Playing live poker I can sort the strong and weak players fairly rapidly. That and the rotating deal has a lot to do with deciding what hands to play, sometimes more than the cards. Just for example lets say there are ten players at the table, myself, three strong players, six I think I am stronger than. If I am one of the last players to act and two or more of the strong players are already in the hand I'm going to fold anything except hands with a decent potential to become a monster. If the hand doesn't develop I'm not going to try to force things. On the other hand, suppose the strong players have folded and three or four weak players are in the hand. I'm going to come in with almost anything, maybe raising enough to create more dead money in the pot and be faced with one or two weak players.
When we gamble at pool against one player, every game is played against a player with the same strength. Playing poker the strength of the active players is different in almost every hand and even our own strength varies with our position relative to the deal, our cards, and how the other players at the table percieve us. We can choose if we want to play each hand and change our minds any time in a hand. Much more flexibility than pool.
Hu
Playing against multiple soft players is a poker player's dream. Playing against equal or better players means that odds are maybe 9:1 against you winning at a full table just looking at raw odds. Never-the-less there are many more poker players making a living at it than pool players. That is partially because skill matters far more than luck and partially because there is a hell of a lot more money in poker right now. My pool skills aren't what they used to be and there isn't enough money in pool to say grace over, two good reasons to play poker instead of pool. Sitting in my easy chair with my feet propped up was another plus playing online!
Playing live poker I can sort the strong and weak players fairly rapidly. That and the rotating deal has a lot to do with deciding what hands to play, sometimes more than the cards. Just for example lets say there are ten players at the table, myself, three strong players, six I think I am stronger than. If I am one of the last players to act and two or more of the strong players are already in the hand I'm going to fold anything except hands with a decent potential to become a monster. If the hand doesn't develop I'm not going to try to force things. On the other hand, suppose the strong players have folded and three or four weak players are in the hand. I'm going to come in with almost anything, maybe raising enough to create more dead money in the pot and be faced with one or two weak players.
When we gamble at pool against one player, every game is played against a player with the same strength. Playing poker the strength of the active players is different in almost every hand and even our own strength varies with our position relative to the deal, our cards, and how the other players at the table percieve us. We can choose if we want to play each hand and change our minds any time in a hand. Much more flexibility than pool.
Hu
Luck is more of an issue when weaker players are involved. How many times have you played a relatively weak player who hooks you every time they miss? But when they make a ball, everything clears out for the run.
Also, luck plays a big part on the break. Sometimes, you hit the rack perfectly, make a couple of balls, park the cue in the center, and then it gets kicked behind something at the last minute.
The higher skilled players are able to play around bad rolls and make their own "luck".
There's a certain randomness to pool that makes it interesting. You can play your whole life and no two breaks will end up with same table layout.
Also, luck plays a big part on the break. Sometimes, you hit the rack perfectly, make a couple of balls, park the cue in the center, and then it gets kicked behind something at the last minute.
The higher skilled players are able to play around bad rolls and make their own "luck".
There's a certain randomness to pool that makes it interesting. You can play your whole life and no two breaks will end up with same table layout.
very complex
To be completely honest, I don't love poker, don't greatly like it. For a lot of years pool was business. I loved playing but it was even more about the dollars. Poker is almost solely about the dollars for me. The only time it is fun is when I take command of a table. It is fun to dominate one good player on a pool table, it is more fun to dominate a bunch of players on a poker table.
What seems to be a simple game is probably far more complex than pool is. One example is two friends that took up poker seriously. One was a math guy. He understood the things it took me many months to understand. Read a poker book and it seems they are talking out their butts claiming the math after the fact. Took a long time to understand that you can control the math most of the time and when you can't for a hand you can always cut your losses and quit. The math guy moved to Vegas. He does well at poker but can't quite make it as a full time pro and take care of his family the way he wants to. He deals and makes what many would consider a good living playing poker on the side.
The other player plays the people, not the cards. He does that so well that he shut down all the games within several hours drive he could find. He also won many nights only pretending to look at his hole cards and playing blind the whole night. That is very possible, out of a dozen winning hands one session I went to showdown twice, never showed my cards the other times could have been two blanks. Another time nine out of ten of my winning hands never went to showdown.
This fellow didn't make it as a poker player. He got sidetracked with a wife, children, and running a division of a major corporation. Matter of fact, the only reason his division is in his city is that he refused to move! He moved on to other hobbies too and is on the leading equipment manufacturer's pro team. Not too shabby for somebody with no education to speak of!
Because poker is so complex many different things can make a good poker player. You can be a good reader of the other people with a little math, someone with very good math and a little weak reading people, or good at both skills.
The simple skills you speak of let you play poker just like being able to form some sort of bridge and swing a cue stick lets you play pool To play pool well involves many more levels of skill. Poker is the same, maybe even more layered. There may be a dozen different levels between a recreational player that knows what the hands are and the raw basics and a world class player.
Even at the moment you are playing poker you have to learn a lot in a hurry. Is this player aggressive because he has the nuts or aggressive because he thinks he can bluff everyone off a hand? Just like hustlers bang balls around to attract and hold suckers, many good poker players play some hands poorly to seem like a fish too. They are a fish alright, but like our old friend Smorg always said, big fish eat little fish! Make sure you know what size fish the other players at the table are and where you fit in the pecking order. You can win with bigger fish at the table but you have to watch your own butt while feeding on the smaller fish.
Hu
To be completely honest, I don't love poker, don't greatly like it. For a lot of years pool was business. I loved playing but it was even more about the dollars. Poker is almost solely about the dollars for me. The only time it is fun is when I take command of a table. It is fun to dominate one good player on a pool table, it is more fun to dominate a bunch of players on a poker table.
What seems to be a simple game is probably far more complex than pool is. One example is two friends that took up poker seriously. One was a math guy. He understood the things it took me many months to understand. Read a poker book and it seems they are talking out their butts claiming the math after the fact. Took a long time to understand that you can control the math most of the time and when you can't for a hand you can always cut your losses and quit. The math guy moved to Vegas. He does well at poker but can't quite make it as a full time pro and take care of his family the way he wants to. He deals and makes what many would consider a good living playing poker on the side.
The other player plays the people, not the cards. He does that so well that he shut down all the games within several hours drive he could find. He also won many nights only pretending to look at his hole cards and playing blind the whole night. That is very possible, out of a dozen winning hands one session I went to showdown twice, never showed my cards the other times could have been two blanks. Another time nine out of ten of my winning hands never went to showdown.
This fellow didn't make it as a poker player. He got sidetracked with a wife, children, and running a division of a major corporation. Matter of fact, the only reason his division is in his city is that he refused to move! He moved on to other hobbies too and is on the leading equipment manufacturer's pro team. Not too shabby for somebody with no education to speak of!
Because poker is so complex many different things can make a good poker player. You can be a good reader of the other people with a little math, someone with very good math and a little weak reading people, or good at both skills.
The simple skills you speak of let you play poker just like being able to form some sort of bridge and swing a cue stick lets you play pool To play pool well involves many more levels of skill. Poker is the same, maybe even more layered. There may be a dozen different levels between a recreational player that knows what the hands are and the raw basics and a world class player.
Even at the moment you are playing poker you have to learn a lot in a hurry. Is this player aggressive because he has the nuts or aggressive because he thinks he can bluff everyone off a hand? Just like hustlers bang balls around to attract and hold suckers, many good poker players play some hands poorly to seem like a fish too. They are a fish alright, but like our old friend Smorg always said, big fish eat little fish! Make sure you know what size fish the other players at the table are and where you fit in the pecking order. You can win with bigger fish at the table but you have to watch your own butt while feeding on the smaller fish.
Hu
There are many good responses on this thread, well reasoned and logical. I have a little different take on things in regard to pool and poker. I have put in extensive hours (years!) at both and have had some success at both games. I wouldn't call myself a world beater, but I am an overall winner at both games.
The way I explain it to people is that pool is about 90% skill and 10% luck. Poker on the other hand is about 50-50, skill to luck. You absolutely need to get lucky in poker once in a while to go deep in a tournament or run up a big score in a cash game. You've got to hit some outs and have your opponents miss theirs. True, the best poker players enjoy the most success overall, but that can be a long road for anyone to fade. I've seen champions who are broke on their ass and looking for a stake horse. Kind of reminds you of pool doesn't it?
Pool on the other hand greatly favors the better player, and even luck won't help a decided underdog. I don't care what the game is, the better player is going to win. Luck can come into play when two good players go at it, but even then the guy who handles the pressure the best is usually the winner. JMHO as always.
I just want to add that imo pool is a game requiring enormous skill that is acquired after years of play and practice. There is NO shortcut to pool excellence! Poker has its nuances to be sure, and a skilled bluffer can be a formidable foe, but this game is not rocket science and doesn't require the mental facilities of a top bridge player by comparison. Poker is a "people" game played with cards and reading people (as Hu said) is where the real skill comes in.
The way I explain it to people is that pool is about 90% skill and 10% luck. Poker on the other hand is about 50-50, skill to luck. You absolutely need to get lucky in poker once in a while to go deep in a tournament or run up a big score in a cash game. You've got to hit some outs and have your opponents miss theirs. True, the best poker players enjoy the most success overall, but that can be a long road for anyone to fade. I've seen champions who are broke on their ass and looking for a stake horse. Kind of reminds you of pool doesn't it?
Pool on the other hand greatly favors the better player, and even luck won't help a decided underdog. I don't care what the game is, the better player is going to win. Luck can come into play when two good players go at it, but even then the guy who handles the pressure the best is usually the winner. JMHO as always.
I just want to add that imo pool is a game requiring enormous skill that is acquired after years of play and practice. There is NO shortcut to pool excellence! Poker has its nuances to be sure, and a skilled bluffer can be a formidable foe, but this game is not rocket science and doesn't require the mental facilities of a top bridge player by comparison. Poker is a "people" game played with cards and reading people (as Hu said) is where the real skill comes in.
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