How Much Money Would it Take?

The plan definitely has to be well thought out. Do you run 38-40 events a year, like the PGA, or do you scale it back to maybe 2 events a month? Will all events have a similar purse or will there be "majors" with a heavier payout? Will all events be the same game/format or will there be a rotation of games/formats (i.e. all 10-ball, all 9-ball, all 8-ball, rotate between the 3..)? How do you set it up for new up-and-coming talent to break in? Do you tie the events in with some amateur events(BCA nationals, APA nationals... ) or keep the pros separate? Obviously, if this is to involve big $$ TV will have to be involved, so how to create something that will generate a substantial audience?

All of these are good questions........and for a tour to make it, the answers better be amazing!
 
all the big sports with sponsers can be viewed from a distance.you can sell plenty of tickets.you cant do that with pool.it is a very limited audience.if you can figure out how to get 10,000 people in a building to watch a match
with comfort.you will have something to sell to a sponsor.

bill
 
Fast Lenny said:
After seeing the dollar thread I was curious as to how much money it would take to have a successful pro tour with all pro playing making a living. I am not sure how many pros we have roaming the US but I would guess 200-300, maybe someone could give us a solid number.

I think you would have to figure out how many pros there are and times that by a certain number for income. Do not make any mistake about, no one would be getting a salary, they would have to earn it. Every player in a tournament would get some money back and the top players would do very well, most importantly the money would be there.

I am curious as to a breakdown, a formula on how you get to your number. I would include advertising cost for the tour along with how many tournaments and monies to be payed out. I would be guessing the number is over 10-15 million or so which is a large number but a drop in the bucket in the sports world.

I have thought a good deal about the past and pools golden era, there were many reasons why pool did well then. Bigger sports that we see today were not prevalent then as they have been for awhile now, pool is really not a mass spectator sport either. We also have more players now which with more pros makes it harder to support them. If you look back on when the game was in the papers and it was a big deal we had less then 25 pros I am guessing playing 6-8 man round robins and such.

The game was different then and we just have so many pros and the money just has not grown because of the no big name sponsors who really do not see the value in advertising with pool. I cannot blame a big company from coming on board because of the value per dollar but then again could a big company buy a sport essentially at a bargain price. They could possibly push it on TV and do something with it along with many different avenues.

I know all business when spending advertising dollars look at numbers of people they are getting to. They know when they spend 2-3 million on reaching 90 million viewers during the Super Bowl they are getting good value for the money I am guessing, pool would not reach 90 million people in a year ever so spending millions on it is just not viable from that perspective.

I am interested in hearing some breakdowns on how much money it would take to get a pro tour going where the players could make a living. I know Kevin Trudeau had a plan and it failed because of some gambling laws from what I heard. I know we all bashed him but he tried and lost money doing it, he did not make money off his failed venture. Perhaps he thought as I said above he could own a sport almost for very cheap and push his products along with whatever else. Figuring a way to make money as a businessman in something like pool was not going to happen even for him, could someone like Trump do it. :grin:
Click to expand...

It would take a Gazilliantrillianbuemillion dollas.
 
vasilios said:
all the big sports with sponsers can be viewed from a distance.you can sell plenty of tickets.you cant do that with pool.it is a very limited audience.if you can figure out how to get 10,000 people in a building to watch a match
with comfort.you will have something to sell to a sponsor.

bill
Click to expand...

Not even close. If you're not talking in the numbers of millions of viewers, you're not going to find one sponsor interested. Not Bud, Coors, General Mills...of which I might add...spends more money in one month of advertizing than Coors beer does in an entire year:grin:

Glen
 
Lenny if you want a reasonably successfull tour look at the pro snooker tour.It is far from perfect but the top players are making a good living.this gives the young up and comers something to shot at. Pat
 
From a post I made about 2 months ago;


We (pool players for the most part) have been wondering what it would take to bring Pool into the ranks of Professional sports.

IIRC, the most common response is a SPONSOR with Tons of $$$.. Well we had the IPT and KT's richest pool tournaments ever... and it FAILED...
It did generate some of pool's best ever paydays for the players.

Currently there is only a very few people in the pool industry that the Professional players TRUST without reservations. And I know.. there are exceptions to even those individuals. Not every player trusts even the most trustworthy.

Some figure I thought might be interesting;

Sports $$$ Statistics from Plunkett Research, Ltd.

Estimated Total revenue for Sports for the year 2010
Where do you think Billiards fits into this picture?

Total estimate for 2010 $414 Billion
Major League Baseball will bring in about $6.8 BILLION
NFL $7.8 BILLION
NBA $4.0 BILLION
NHL $3.0 BILLION

The PGA, NASCAR and Tennis is under a BILLION

All golf courses combined across the USA will generate $19.8 BILLION in 2010.


Now.. can you imagine if pool had a 10 year commitment from a wealthy sponsor for $5MILLION a year. That is $50 MILLION.. very very very LOW compared to the above figures.

$5 Million a year... who would you suggest administer that amount? That is 20 times an annual amount of an estimated $250,000 a year in prize money currently available in the USA only.

Of that $5 MILLION.. how much would you think would go to the official Operating funds. The Expenses of administration and operating such an organization. Just to promote and run tournaments for the Professional players.. how much of that $5 Million?

$150,000 a year? for a Commissioner? $350,000 for staff and operation funds?

See... first we have to spend some of that SPONSOR'S money to get it to players. Fun huh?

Now.. we have to come up with 10 monthly tournaments.. and a championship.

Someone has to decide how much to spend on each tournament and then the location(s) and how much for the prize fund, TD and staff, and table and venue renting. Contracts to be signed for long term usage for dedicated venues and guaranteed pricing.

We are still spending a lot of that sponsor's money and haven't even had a tournament yet.

Sounds easy huh... where is the TV? will it come in the first year? or will it be in the 5th year... oh wait... another show stopper.. what if the Benefactor big dollar sponsor demands a business plan.. before we get the money?

Who will develop the business plan? will the players get to review it before the Sponsor sees it? Will they know enough about a business plan to be able to judge its merits or be able to see how it affect them in the short and long run?

still no tournament date.. it takes time, a plan and dollars and most of all a leader and dedicated staff to pull this off.. and then the players need to at the very least TRUST that organization and LEADER

If this were to start today.. I would estimate it would take the better part of the next 12 months to decide who will be the Commissioner.. then there has to be a committee to approve the business plan. That will take another 12 months.

Two years and then we can start seeing some progress on when a tournament schedule might be presented.

Anytime less that that... for just $50,000,000 would be wasted on petty bickering.
 
I hate to be a "doubting Thomas"...but let me offer probably the closest comparison to this concept that you'll find...

In or around 2000 the Professional Bowlers Association was on its last legs. It was purchased(for around 5 Million) by two Microsoft millionaires who had retired. They ultimately went to an exempt tour-which had around 50 exempt and 10-12 spots each week awarded to amatuer/pro qualifiers. Entry fees were 500-everyone got a check-the low check being around 1800.00. With 60 entries x 500 = 30K just with entry fees. The tour also had significant corporate sponorship with Lumber Liquidators and also Odor Eaters. They also had a Sunday time slot on ESPN(1pm) Probably half the tournaments had a large venue "stadium" finals. Don't get me wrong-that probably only sold 500-1000 seats-but thats what they called it. They also sold weekly passes and tickets during qualifying and match play.

The end result is their "circling the drain" and probably will disband if not this season probably next. From the players side....about 5 guys are making a living and the rest barely make enough to eat and travel and buy equipment.

I don't think pool could put half of the above revenue streams in place...so I really don't see how it could survive. I hope I'm wrong.
 
I'm kind of thinking in another direction. Lenny already has the ground work in place for what I like.......Weekly Challenge matches that are streamed from a different pool room each week, but with the same crew doing the streaming with guest commentators from that area filling in to give some local flavor. The players can be hand picked, or chosen by the region the stream will be held in. Down the road you can have a battle of the west vs east, or north vs south etc. The players can be paid appearance money, or a set amount to play, or they can make their own wager on top of it.

I'm thinking of doing this in the begining to rekindle the pool bug. Nothing gets people into the pool room like action! No need to get 10,000 people into an arena....let em stay home, pay $5 and watch GREAT action from the sofa. With a set schedule of matches we all would say......"hey its wednesday nite....whos playing the challenge match this week?" We ALL have seen how many hits the streams get from the DCC, or TAR, Big Truck , Lenny on the rail.....who wouldnt pay $5 to watch great pool? Get a few hundred viewers, and you can pay the bills to keep it going.

Also if you are lucky enough to live near the host room, you can go down and watch in person.....maybe give out door prizes, and get your face on camera. During the breaks you can interview the room owners, or local heros to get a feel for whats going on in that area.

Instead of starting a HUGE undertaking like another tour.....this could be done with a couple of guys, in a nice leased motor home to stay in, with good camera/computer equipment and a flair for doing the commentary....which is real important IMO. The matches could be hosted almost anywhere....bars, nice home rooms, all the pool rooms we read about but have never been to.....it would give us a chance to see what they are about. Maybe the host room owners would kick in $$ for a chance to get their room out there online for new potential customers to see.

I know this won't get a ton of pros a living but looking down the road it could spark the interest of a sponsor willing to get on board. With a strong following of online viewers....I'm thinking world wide.....a big sponsor would hopefully pick it up and run with it into a full on tour.

We all know the internet, and streamed matches work well, and it's the easiest way to get pool out there to millions of people......everyone has a high speed hookup today!.....well almost everyone :) Ustream is easy, and Paypal works great to collect the fee and with pool being so popular over seas we could tap into that market by just providing the stream and a way to let them know whats going on. I bet before long you would have room owners calling to host events all over the country......

It's win win for everyone....room owners get the word out and good advertising.......players get some $$$......we get to watch some great pool every week same time same streamer.....and whomever does the streaming gets to go all over the country and have a kickass adventure. Sounds fun to me!
 
Black-Balled said:
Sounds a little like too much work.

I thought the whole chioce to play the game for a living was based on the premise that work was to be avoided...?
Click to expand...

I agree it is a lot of work

I remember a few years back when Hilton tried to start a tour for the players and they would not support it. I know of 3 tournaments they had. We were there. One in Atlantic City, One in PA and one in FL and it was all they could do to get 20 players there. If I remember correctly the IPT was involved and was very hard to deal with. If I am wrong I am sorry. It got so BAD that Hilton just gave up. I just hope if someone else tries the players will support it.
 
Last edited:
Pros and Amateurs

Here is one post from several months ago: I will try to dig up some others.
This system is up and running.

Amateurs supporting pros - 03-12-2010, 11:10 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Everyone needs to go to www.playusapool.com.

This is a new nationally handicapped league being created by CSI.

There are a LOT of advantages:
Free geographical areas for league managers
No player dues the first year
50% (minimum) paid back on the local level
'Fairplay' handicap system - 18 yrs experience with 70% hill-hill
Match play format (one on one)
50 cents of each players dues will go to 'pro pot'
Can play in BCAPL national event in May
Free web based stats


This is the future of pool - and it is actually functioning. Once we reach critical mass, the pool world will actually be funding its own future.

Please call our office (702-719-7665) with questions. This is the best deal out there and we need some good league managers. We have good support services for league managers.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI
BCAPL - USAPL - NCS
 
there are some good thoughts going on here. i too am a bit of a pessimist on it all (i actually think im a realist). i just dont think pool has the capacity to go anywhere in this country. perhaps an analogy would be michael jackson trying to look good.... once he reached a certain point it was just all over, you can do all you want it aint gonna be no help.

that being said, i think if there were to be success it would have to follow the same criterion as a good film. you need to expose pool's personalities and characters. i cant tell you how many times a girlfriend of mine has gotten super into say a latino boxer (even though she hats boxing) just because she saw an interview with him on a morning show or something.....

when fans hate players it works too, oh i'm gonna watch that match... i hope he kicks the shit out of strickland etc.

that's all i have to say, first (somehow) expose these colorful personalities we have (tough to do i know), maybe throw some good scandals in there.... then you may have a chance.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
From a post I made about 2 months ago;


We (pool players for the most part) have been wondering what it would take to bring Pool into the ranks of Professional sports.

IIRC, the most common response is a SPONSOR with Tons of $$$.. Well we had the IPT and KT's richest pool tournaments ever... and it FAILED...
It did generate some of pool's best ever paydays for the players.

Currently there is only a very few people in the pool industry that the Professional players TRUST without reservations. And I know.. there are exceptions to even those individuals. Not every player trusts even the most trustworthy.

Some figure I thought might be interesting;

Sports $$$ Statistics from Plunkett Research, Ltd.

Estimated Total revenue for Sports for the year 2010
Where do you think Billiards fits into this picture?

Total estimate for 2010 $414 Billion
Major League Baseball will bring in about $6.8 BILLION
NFL $7.8 BILLION
NBA $4.0 BILLION
NHL $3.0 BILLION

The PGA, NASCAR and Tennis is under a BILLION

All golf courses combined across the USA will generate $19.8 BILLION in 2010.


Now.. can you imagine if pool had a 10 year commitment from a wealthy sponsor for $5MILLION a year. That is $50 MILLION.. very very very LOW compared to the above figures.

$5 Million a year... who would you suggest administer that amount? That is 20 times an annual amount of an estimated $250,000 a year in prize money currently available in the USA only.

Of that $5 MILLION.. how much would you think would go to the official Operating funds. The Expenses of administration and operating such an organization. Just to promote and run tournaments for the Professional players.. how much of that $5 Million?

$150,000 a year? for a Commissioner? $350,000 for staff and operation funds?

See... first we have to spend some of that SPONSOR'S money to get it to players. Fun huh?

Now.. we have to come up with 10 monthly tournaments.. and a championship.

Someone has to decide how much to spend on each tournament and then the location(s) and how much for the prize fund, TD and staff, and table and venue renting. Contracts to be signed for long term usage for dedicated venues and guaranteed pricing.

We are still spending a lot of that sponsor's money and haven't even had a tournament yet.

Sounds easy huh... where is the TV? will it come in the first year? or will it be in the 5th year... oh wait... another show stopper.. what if the Benefactor big dollar sponsor demands a business plan.. before we get the money?

Who will develop the business plan? will the players get to review it before the Sponsor sees it? Will they know enough about a business plan to be able to judge its merits or be able to see how it affect them in the short and long run?

still no tournament date.. it takes time, a plan and dollars and most of all a leader and dedicated staff to pull this off.. and then the players need to at the very least TRUST that organization and LEADER

If this were to start today.. I would estimate it would take the better part of the next 12 months to decide who will be the Commissioner.. then there has to be a committee to approve the business plan. That will take another 12 months.

Two years and then we can start seeing some progress on when a tournament schedule might be presented.

Anytime less that that... for just $50,000,000 would be wasted on petty bickering.
Click to expand...

A lot of very valid points here!! !!Well said
 
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