I guess this might be old knowledge for most, but I just learned that many makers don't make their own butts for this style of cue. Many just buy Schmelke or Atlas ones. Not to suggest they don't play as well, but why is this? And how can they charge so much more for butts from $50-$100?
How often do cuemakers make their own blanks for sneaky petes / hustlers?
- Thread starter Impact Blue
- Start date
Now I am not an expert on this subject, but I only know of two, the first was Paul Huebler, and the other is a current member of this forum and his name is Scott Whisler. Scotts, blanks are really great unlike most others his blanks are made using the same technique used by Brunswick with the points up and down being sharp.
My understanding is that it doesn't make financial sense for a maker to make his own blanks for low-end cues. There is a lot of dedicated machinery that is required and, as you said, blanks are available.
SP's require a special set of jigs and virtually dedicated machines to cut, as well as using quite a bit of wood in the process, so most cuemakers don't want the expense. The manufacturers such as Schmelke make them economically and accurately (for the most part) so it is just good economics to use them. As to their price, a good Schmelke blank will still run $60 in the raw and must be turned 2-3 times before finishing, hence a fair amount of touch-labor. (I used to offer SP's for players wanting low-end cues, but have gone away from it because they take more time than their price is worth.)
This is valuable information, thanks! I understand the economics of it, having a parent company create in bulk a product that is necessary for a build.
I guess what brings this up was an example I saw here recently, of a maker using said blanks, and the seller charging almost $1000 bucks for the sneaky. If the demand is there, I guess it is stupid not to try and move a cue for that price. But for a $100 blank only cut, tapped, and finished to spec--does that suggest the shaft is worth at least half that value?
My real question is how much can a cuemaker express about the hit of his cue, if he didn't even create the butt? Or is the construction of the butt that trivial to where a factory of builders can supply all the parts? (I guess you can buy ring work too?)
A $1000 for a sp sounds pretty high unless it has veneers and some inlays or is a titleist conversion. Also John Davis makes some really nice blanks that run about 350-450 so add ringwork and a shaft or 2 and $1000 isnt bad.
I would like to see the $1000 sneaky...there is more to it that revealed thus far.
Probably filled w/ crack!:wink:
Probably filled w/ crack!:wink:
$1000 for a sneaky isn't unheard of or a rare thing. There's likely a dozen builders currently who can demand it. The cost of the blank is trivial to the cost of the cue. No matter what cue it is, materials are the minor cost associated with the build. A P/J cue with nice rings goes for $1000 or more pretty commonly and there's less work and less material cost than building a fancy sneaky "correctly". By correctly I mean weighted & balanced appropriately, points even & consistent, etc.
Building a sneaky correctly is not an easy task. The blank is a pretty simple splice of two woods and so long as the builder knows the woods used, he can, with a high degree of certainty, know how the cue will hit & feel before it's ever built. This all lies in the quality of the builder himself more so than the quality of the blank. If the blank is assembled accurately with good wood then it's going to be structurally as good as any other blank whether built by the builder or by a supplier. Turning that blank into a cue is where the money comes in to play.
Personally speaking, I go through the pains of hand choosing blanks according to wood quality & cleanliness of the splice. I then do what is necessary to center it correctly so that the points will be even. I turn the blank for no less than one year & most often several years to ensure stability. I weight & balance the cue the same way I do any other cue I build so it will be consistent in play and feel as every other cue I build. The dimensions are all uniform with all of my cues. It also gets 2 shafts that are of the same quality as any cue I build. I charge $150 per shaft so there's $300 of the value. Now figure in the nice rings at joint & butt, and the finish. Each ring pack is $50-$100 depending on complexity. The finish is $150. We're already at $650 just for the basics. So how much is my time worth that I spent getting the points even and balancing the butt correctly? And how about the time it takes to cut .010" a month over several years until the cue is final size?
Breaking it down like this is something folks don't do. So they don't understand why a sneaky can cost a lot. To most folks, a sneaky is a simple full spliced butt with a joint pin & a shaft, or a house cue cut & joint pin added. And that is true. But when you factor in the difference between a "tossed together" sneaky and a sneaky built to the same high level as higher end cues, you can clearly see why a sneaky "can" cost $1000+. Any builder who actually goes through the trouble of building a sneaky correctly will charge appropriately. If he can't get what it's worth to justify his time & work then he simply won't build sneakies.
My point is that you can't compare a $1000 sneaky to a $300 sneaky. The $300 sneaky is a quick job with lack of attention to detail and low grade shaft(s). The only way to build a $300-$500 sneaky is to either not pay yourself for the work involved, or else cut corners in the process to sell cheap and still make money. It's easy to cut corners and therefore there's a lot of cheap sneakies. It's not easy to get paid fairly for the job of building a high grade sneaky so you don't see them very often. I hope this makes sense. Now can a guy take a $50 blank & cut it to size with no attention to the evenness of the points? Yes. Can he install a joint pin, add collars & a shaft? Yes. Will it play well? Yes. And it'll cost $300-$500. You get what you pay for.
Building a sneaky correctly is not an easy task. The blank is a pretty simple splice of two woods and so long as the builder knows the woods used, he can, with a high degree of certainty, know how the cue will hit & feel before it's ever built. This all lies in the quality of the builder himself more so than the quality of the blank. If the blank is assembled accurately with good wood then it's going to be structurally as good as any other blank whether built by the builder or by a supplier. Turning that blank into a cue is where the money comes in to play.
Personally speaking, I go through the pains of hand choosing blanks according to wood quality & cleanliness of the splice. I then do what is necessary to center it correctly so that the points will be even. I turn the blank for no less than one year & most often several years to ensure stability. I weight & balance the cue the same way I do any other cue I build so it will be consistent in play and feel as every other cue I build. The dimensions are all uniform with all of my cues. It also gets 2 shafts that are of the same quality as any cue I build. I charge $150 per shaft so there's $300 of the value. Now figure in the nice rings at joint & butt, and the finish. Each ring pack is $50-$100 depending on complexity. The finish is $150. We're already at $650 just for the basics. So how much is my time worth that I spent getting the points even and balancing the butt correctly? And how about the time it takes to cut .010" a month over several years until the cue is final size?
Breaking it down like this is something folks don't do. So they don't understand why a sneaky can cost a lot. To most folks, a sneaky is a simple full spliced butt with a joint pin & a shaft, or a house cue cut & joint pin added. And that is true. But when you factor in the difference between a "tossed together" sneaky and a sneaky built to the same high level as higher end cues, you can clearly see why a sneaky "can" cost $1000+. Any builder who actually goes through the trouble of building a sneaky correctly will charge appropriately. If he can't get what it's worth to justify his time & work then he simply won't build sneakies.
My point is that you can't compare a $1000 sneaky to a $300 sneaky. The $300 sneaky is a quick job with lack of attention to detail and low grade shaft(s). The only way to build a $300-$500 sneaky is to either not pay yourself for the work involved, or else cut corners in the process to sell cheap and still make money. It's easy to cut corners and therefore there's a lot of cheap sneakies. It's not easy to get paid fairly for the job of building a high grade sneaky so you don't see them very often. I hope this makes sense. Now can a guy take a $50 blank & cut it to size with no attention to the evenness of the points? Yes. Can he install a joint pin, add collars & a shaft? Yes. Will it play well? Yes. And it'll cost $300-$500. You get what you pay for.
Tim Scruggs closed down his shop this year. So, I wouldn't be surprised, based on speculation, if some people started asking $1K for his sneaky petes.
FWIW, Dale Perry charges more for his sneaky petes (dufferin conversions) than his e-bay one of kinds.
FWIW, Dale Perry charges more for his sneaky petes (dufferin conversions) than his e-bay one of kinds.
SO what? There's no crack?
You guys are fukcing brutal, brutal.
You guys are fukcing brutal, brutal.
Only the ones coming from Mexico.
This is a polite way for Eric to explain why the cost of the blank is less than 10% of the price if you want a nice Sugartree sneaky with 2-shafts.
Preferably one with that orange looking cocobolo.
Isn't there a famous quotation about a little knowledge?
...........................................................................
The cost of the blank is not all that relevant.
How much do you suppose Ford paid for the iron in your fuel pump?
I've made many a good hitting Plain Jane. I started with maple boards,
but I didn't "make" the board.
There is a lot more to building a good playing cue than just making the blank.
Dale<who often has a blank stare>
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You're on the right track, but why stop there? Spend the $100 on a blank and make the cue yourself.
The blank doesn't guarantee that the cue is going to play well...even if it's a quality blank. That comes from a maker's build technique...each having their own philosophy as to what makes a great playing cue. Some makers' philosophy is dead on...others perhaps not so much.
Cue maker A and Cue maker B both start with equally constructed blanks, ie; woods used. Cue maker A's completed cue plays lights out, while Cue maker B's completed cue plays so-so. It's all in how each maker chose to 'complete' each cue.
It's not just about the raw materials used, it's about how they are used.
Lisa
Cue maker A and Cue maker B both start with equally constructed blanks, ie; woods used. Cue maker A's completed cue plays lights out, while Cue maker B's completed cue plays so-so. It's all in how each maker chose to 'complete' each cue.
It's not just about the raw materials used, it's about how they are used.
Lisa
Some other cuemakers who do make their own fullsplice blanks include: Darrin Hill, Mark Bear, Joel Hercek, and Ed Prewitt.
A lower price should not imply the cuemaker is a hack or did sub-standard work. Too many people get sucked into the "cue market hype" that higher price always equals higher quality and lower price always equals lower quality.
There are plenty of cuemakers who can and will build you a fine cue (sneaky petes included) without charging an arm and a leg. And the cues they make will not be "tossed together" as you would say.
Al Romero out of Bellflower, California charges around $250 for his sneakies. The butts are made from old house cues. However, they are well-balanced, have very high-grade shaftwood, and many high-speed players would agree they play just as good as your suggested $1000 sneaky.
Darrin Hill, who is also a member of this forum, makes his own fullsplice blanks and offers what I would consider a "high-end" sneaky pete for a very fair price. You can see some of his work in the Cue Gallery.
And surprising as it may seem, a lot of cuemakers actually LOVE to build cues (more than they love $$$). They take great pride in their work and great satisfaction in seeing their cues played with and appreciated by all pool players; not just pool players with lots of $$$ to spend on cues. Most of all, they are not constantly trying to justify their efforts with statements like yours...
If you, as a cuemaker, are really that concerned about "how much your time is worth" while making cues, perhaps you need to re-think why you are even making cues to begin with.
On second thought, just read this until it sinks in.
I have to disagree with this statement.
A lower price should not imply the cuemaker is a hack or did sub-standard work. Too many people get sucked into the "cue market hype" that higher price always equals higher quality and lower price always equals lower quality.
There are plenty of cuemakers who can and will build you a fine cue (sneaky petes included) without charging an arm and a leg. And the cues they make will not be "tossed together" as you would say.
Al Romero out of Bellflower, California charges around $250 for his sneakies. The butts are made from old house cues. However, they are well-balanced, have very high-grade shaftwood, and many high-speed players would agree they play just as good as your suggested $1000 sneaky.
Darrin Hill, who is also a member of this forum, makes his own fullsplice blanks and offers what I would consider a "high-end" sneaky pete for a very fair price. You can see some of his work in the Cue Gallery.
And surprising as it may seem, a lot of cuemakers actually LOVE to build cues (more than they love $$$). They take great pride in their work and great satisfaction in seeing their cues played with and appreciated by all pool players; not just pool players with lots of $$$ to spend on cues. Most of all, they are not constantly trying to justify their efforts with statements like yours...
qbilder said:
If you, as a cuemaker, are really that concerned about "how much your time is worth" while making cues, perhaps you need to re-think why you are even making cues to begin with.
On second thought, just read this until it sinks in.
Penguin, do you have a bone to pick with me? What's up with this internet stalking crap going on?
And for the record, I have NEVER charged anywhere even remotely near $1000 for a sneaky. Every builder you referenced charges more for their work than I do. The difference is that my cues are worth more used than new from me & that is nothing I can control. You might want to have your facts straight before you again begin making up such strong opinions on people you don't know. Would you even believe I give away about half as many cues as I sell? And you really think you are righteous enough to publicly lecture me about why I build cues? Or how much I charge? Really? You have done nothing but shown how clueless you are. But this is indeed the intarweb & anybody can be a know it all something.
And for the record, I have NEVER charged anywhere even remotely near $1000 for a sneaky. Every builder you referenced charges more for their work than I do. The difference is that my cues are worth more used than new from me & that is nothing I can control. You might want to have your facts straight before you again begin making up such strong opinions on people you don't know. Would you even believe I give away about half as many cues as I sell? And you really think you are righteous enough to publicly lecture me about why I build cues? Or how much I charge? Really? You have done nothing but shown how clueless you are. But this is indeed the intarweb & anybody can be a know it all something.
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Some other cuemakers who do make their own fullsplice blanks include: Darrin Hill, Mark Bear, Joel Hercek, and Ed Prewitt.
I have to disagree with this statement.
A lower price should not imply the cuemaker is a hack or did sub-standard work. Too many people get sucked into the "cue market hype" that higher price always equals higher quality and lower price always equals lower quality.
There are plenty of cuemakers who can and will build you a fine cue (sneaky petes included) without charging an arm and a leg. And the cues they make will not be "tossed together" as you would say.
Al Romero out of Bellflower, California charges around $250 for his sneakies. The butts are made from old house cues. However, they are well-balanced, have very high-grade shaftwood, and many high-speed players would agree they play just as good as your suggested $1000 sneaky.
Darrin Hill, who is also a member of this forum, makes his own fullsplice blanks and offers what I would consider a "high-end" sneaky pete for a very fair price. You can see some of his work in the Cue Gallery.
And surprising as it may seem, a lot of cuemakers actually LOVE to build cues (more than they love $$$). They take great pride in their work and great satisfaction in seeing their cues played with and appreciated by all pool players; not just pool players with lots of $$$ to spend on cues. Most of all, they are not constantly trying to justify their efforts with statements like yours...
If you, as a cuemaker, are really that concerned about "how much your time is worth" while making cues, perhaps you need to re-think why you are even making cues to begin with.
On second thought, just read this until it sinks in.
Little Al hustler cues are a terrific deal but you can't compare them to a Sugartree.
Darren Hill cues aren't than much less expensive than a Sugartree.
I don't understand why you would fault a cue builder trying to be compensated for his time.
Most people do try to make a buck every once in a while.