# how would ya hit it?

#### straightline

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Theoretically this can be made with low outside English. Theoretically only due to my skill level. Who knows the trick???
It's a masse shot. It doesn't take much of a stroke since the ball is airborne and only needs a little bit of break when it lands. Making it is a matter of sticking with one speed and learning where to point the stick.

#### Poolplaya9

##### Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
It's a masse shot. It doesn't take much of a stroke since the ball is airborne and only needs a little bit of break when it lands. Making it is a matter of sticking with one speed and learning where to point the stick.
If trying to make the shot from post #31 with outside english as you were discussing with Tennesseejoe, the last thing on earth you would want is a masse shot as it just increases the shot angle and makes the shot more difficult. You are trying to avoid any masse effect as much as possible.

On a side note, I know similar shots to the one above that are over 90 degree angle cut shots can be made with outside english on an open table such as the one in the link below, but when it is frozen to the rail as in the link above can shots at the same extreme angles still be cut in with outside english or does being frozen to the rail now lessen the angle that is possible to cut in with outside? I'm vacillating a bit on what I think will be the case. I want to think the shot in the above diagram would probably be possible with outside english if it were off the rail (I didn't measure the angle), but as soon as it is on the rail as diagrammed above my confidence level that it can be done plummets. Can you chime in on this Bob?

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#### straightline

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If trying to make the shot from post #31 with outside english as you were discussing with Tennesseejoe, the last thing on earth you would want is a masse shot as it just increases the shot angle and makes the shot more difficult. You are trying to avoid any masse effect as much as possible.
Just _countering_ that the one off the rail is a masse shot - and not technically difficult.

#### Poolplaya9

##### Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
Just _countering_ that the one off the rail is a masse shot - and not technically difficult.
The shot from post #31 attempted with outside english as we have been discussing is not a masse shot. Nor should it be one because that would make the shot much tougher without any benefit. No competent player would every try to turn it a masse as that would be counter productive. And it is indeed a very difficult if not impossible shot to do with outside english the way we have been discussing it. Everything you are saying is exactly backwards.

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#### Catalin

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here's another diagram from Knuchell's book (1970), which makes it pretty clear how he is saying to shoot it:

View attachment 638555
That's a very poor position play on the 6. Why would you play it with a rolling ball...?!

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#### Catalin

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you shoot that way, the cue ball will miss the object ball and go rail first due to deflection. Maybe they just didn't want to try to explain how it works.
What are you talking about, deflection from right English will send the cue ball towards the object ball not away from it.

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#### Catalin

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The book clearly is wrong. Here is the whole diagram, which they seem to have "borrowed" from the Knuchell book I mentioned above. Or maybe it was the other way around as they were published about the same time. They give the same wrong advice that Knuchell did for Shot 1, but they get Shot 2 completely wrong.

View attachment 638904

Ok this is interesting, how would you guys shoot shot no 1 for positon in the first place? I would probably stun it across and back. If I'm feeling really confident with the equipment I might play it slow with a lot of inside and have the cue ball drift towards the bottom rail for positon.

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#### straightline

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The shot from post #31 attempted with outside english as we have been discussing is not a masse shot. Nor should it be one because that would make the shot much tougher without any benefit. No competent player would every try to turn it a masse as that would be counter productive. And it is indeed a very difficult if not impossible shot to do with outside english the way we have been discussing it. Everything you are saying is exactly backwards.
I'm _countering_ that post. It's pretty obvious a right hand masse would never cut that ball in.

#### Poolplaya9

##### Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
I'm _countering_ that post. It's pretty obvious a right hand masse would never cut that ball in.
I agree that a right english masse would never cut the ball in on post #31. But none of the people that you have quoted or discussed the shot with have said or insinuated that it would be a masse and there is no other reason to think it would be either, so why would on earth would you bring up a masse? Very confusing. You seem to be the only person saying it is a masse.
It's a masse shot. It doesn't take much of a stroke since the ball is airborne and only needs a little bit of break when it lands. Making it is a matter of sticking with one speed and learning where to point the stick.

#### straightline

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree that a right english masse would never cut the ball in on post #31. But none of the people that you have quoted or discussed the shot with have said or insinuated that it would be a masse and there is no other reason to think it would be either, so why would on earth would you bring up a masse? Very confusing. You seem to be the only person saying it is a masse.
It's the one off the rail. It is a masse. Small one but not merely swerve. I've always shot it that way - maybe 45 degrees jacked up.

##### Grammer Are For Stupids
Silver Member
What are you talking about, deflection from right English will send the cue ball towards the object ball not away from it.

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Drop the attitude wiseass, I already stated I miss read that in a subsequent post.

#### Poolplaya9

##### Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
It's the one off the rail. It is a masse. Small one but not merely swerve. I've always shot it that way - maybe 45 degrees jacked up.
With outside english? The outside english version of that shot is the only thing we have very clearly and specifically been talking about this whole time. If somebody were trying that shot with outside english they would have no reason whatsoever to be jacking up to masse as it would be detrimental to the shot. So I will say it again, it would not be a masse. You have apparently been thinking about how you would shoot it with inside the whole time we have very clearly and very specifically been talking about the outside english attempt version and you never did stop to consider how you would actually shoot it if trying it with outside. You would not masse if attempting it with outside nor would anybody else.

Switching gears to a whole different topic now, there isn't any need to jack up to a 45 degree angle of masse when shooting it with inside either and if you were equally practiced shooting it both ways (45 degrees of masse or a more level cue) I'm guessing you would find the masse version a little less successful.

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#### straightline

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
With outside english? The outside english version of that shot is the only thing we have very clearly and specifically been talking about this whole time. If somebody were trying that shot with outside english they would have no reason whatsoever to be jacking up to masse as it would be detrimental to the shot. So I will say it again, it would not be a masse. You have apparently been talking about how you would shoot it with inside the whole time we have very clearly and very specifically been talking about the outside english attempt version and never stopped to consider how you would actually shoot it if trying it with outside, and you would not masse when shooting with outside nor would anybody else.
Of course not outside english. I thought that was clear in stipulating masse.
Switching gears to a whole different topic now, there isn't any need to jack up and masse when shooting it with inside either and if you were equally practiced shooting it both ways (masse or a more level cue) I'm guessing you would find the masse version a little less successful.
It's much easier to make the curve with a 45 degree tap than whatever you have to do shooting level.

#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
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Ok this is interesting, how would you guys shoot shot no 1 for positon in the first place? I...
The book was not written to illustrate a run with two shots. It was only describing two frozen-ball shots. The shots are not connected in a run.

#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
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... On a side note, I know similar shots to the one above that are over 90 degree angle cut shots can be made with outside english on an open table such as the one in the link below, but when it is frozen to the rail as in the link above can shots at the same extreme angles still be cut in with outside english or does being frozen to the rail now lessen the angle that is possible to cut in with outside? I'm vacillating a bit on what I think will be the case. I want to think the shot in the above diagram would probably be possible with outside english if it were off the rail (I didn't measure the angle), but as soon as it is on the rail as diagrammed above my confidence level that it can be done plummets. Can you chime in on this Bob?
...
I have heard of people making the 90-degree frozen shot with outside but I have never seen it. I don't see why it should be impossible, given that the 93-degree cut off the spot is possible.

#### Poolplaya9

##### Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
Of course not outside english. I thought that was clear in stipulating masse.
You need to go back and read that portion of the thread again. Tennesseejoe asks for the trick to shooting it with OUTSIDE english. You respond that it is a masse. I keep reminding you that we are only talking about how it would be shot if using OUTSIDE english. You keep insisting it would it would be a masse with outside english. Rinse and repeat several more times.

I think I have finally figured out what you were thinking, but it sure isn't what you were saying. What you should have just said was "I am not talking about shooting it with outside because I would never shoot it with outside, so I am talking about shooting it with inside instead". For that matter, since shooting it with outside was the topic, you shouldn't have said anything at all in response to the outside english discussion when you were never even talking about outside english. What a cluster.

It's much easier to make the curve with a 45 degree tap than whatever you have to do shooting level.
Back to talking about inside again now. You don't need a curve, you just need english. Start trying that shot with a closer to level cue, Once you get more practiced with it your success will probably go up.

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#### book collector

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i know you would cut it in
i would like to know which of your cues would you use???

George Rood would put the cue ball on the middle diamond on the head rail frozen, object ball on the middle diamond on the bottom rail also frozen and then spot a ball on the spot and one at the kitchen line in the center . like there was a spot at both ends. Then cut the bottom ball in either corner. I never saw anyone else do it. He could do it until he was about 90.

#### Catalin

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The book was not written to illustrate a run with two shots. It was only describing two frozen-ball shots. The shots are not connected in a run.
It doesn't matter how the book was written. How would you play for position?

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#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
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It doesn't matter how the book was written. How would you play for position?
Softly with inside, probably.

#### Chili Palmer

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Of course swerve can happen in a short distance under certain circumstances, never said it couldn't, but as I said not on this particular shot (jacked up or not) because of the short distance combined with the shot speed which it would have to be shot at in order to give the object ball a chance to go and between the two things together it just wouldn't allow enough time for swerve to become a real factor in the shot as diagrammed.

With a level cue, you are probably more correct than not but, add some elevation to the rear of the cue I would bet money most competent players could swerve that in. It's also how you can hit it softer.

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