How would you attack this?

Blackjack

Blackjack

Illuminati Blacksmack
Silver Member

CueTable Help



I am asking this just to see how many different ways other players would try to attack this break shot. In your response, I want to know how you will strike the cue ball (Stun, Draw, Follow) and which ball in the stack you want to make contact with.

Try to provide a diagram with yoru response - I just want to see how different players would shoot this shot.

This is what I did the other night:
I put a little bit of bottom on the cue ball - knocked the 8 in - and went directly into the 15 ball - cue ball drifted slowly back to the center of the table. I didn't get much ball dispersement, but I did end up with several secondary break balls. A friend suggested that I should have followed deeper into the pack... but I liked this.

CueTable Help

 
David,

Just making the 8 looks fairly difficult to me. It's a shot I expect to make if I play it with what feels most comfortable. Looking at the WEI, it's tough for me to say what that would be.

My only choices would be:

1. hard top
2. hard draw
3. soft-medium draw (a little more draw than a stun stroke)

I think I would go with #3, the soft-medium draw.

Soft top would not be one of my options, just for the record. That looks too scratchy for me. (And if I do hit the rack full, it also looks like I might get stuck.) The hard top should curve the cueball nicely into the end rail.

Anyway, I guess my point is that on shots like this, their difficulty would make me cinch the shot (though not with slow speed) and accept the results. At this extreme angle, I figure to do some damage to the rack no matter what spin I use on the cueball.

I will try to set it up tonight and see which I prefer.

- Steve
 
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Blackjack said:
... I am asking this just to see how many different ways other players would try to attack this break shot. In your response, I want to know how you will strike the cue ball (Stun, Draw, Follow) and which ball in the stack you want to make contact with. ...
Click to expand...
If I'm hitting the stroke shots well, I like the shot you chose. If I'm not hitting those well or don't feel comfortable for one reason or another, I'm going to play this with soft follow (probably into the 13 and then down to the foot cushion) for a secondary break shot into the lower-left foot pocket. I don't think a scratch from that approach angle is likely.
 
I like medium follow. Hard follow possibly? I don't think the cue ball would miss the stack. What do you think?
 
If I was in real good stroke I might draw the ball...

Blackjack

As a general rule...when the angle is borderline severe...which I judge this shot to be...and the cue ball will hit the pack at a great place...I follow medium stroke...less of an angle and I'll probably draw the cue ball off the pack to center table.

I'm not saying that I'll know exactly where the cue ball will end up and which object balls will spread where...but I would bet that I make the break ball...spread the rack fair enough to have a shot and continue the high run...

Thanks for the situation.

Mike
 
For me this is the typical kind of shot that requires a very clear mental picture of what is going to happen. Once I have that feeling, I make sure I totally commit to it or this one is going to get undercut. A full follow through on my stroke here with medium to hard follow. I'd like to catch the top of the three and eat into the rack a bit.
 
I shoot it with med/hard speed trying to hit just above the 15 and move balls over to the corner pocket...to me this is a perfectly setup break ball...
 
Like Bob, I would roll the cb and glance a few out bringing the cb to the bottom rail. I don't like big angle backcut breakers, and if I splash the rack and miss....there goes my first rule of 14.1! :D

Gerry

CueTable Help

 
I never see the diagrams

But one thing is for sure. Never draw into the pack. It is a last resort. This is because you will chance are freezing up.
Nick :)
 
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Depending on who I was playing, and what the stakes were, I would probably play a safe here. Mostly because I'm not the best shotmaker out there and if playing someone above my caliber, I wouldn't want to bust open the rack, as that shot is out of my personal 95% range.. I would hit with a little top and drift the cue ball into the stack to freeze, and put the 8 near the back rail.

If I was trying to make the break ball, I would put a little follow and try to contact the 13, freeing the 10.

Knowing my weaknesses, I would probably end up stuck to the stack, and forced to play safe down table to the far rail.
 
This particular break shot is troublesome for me...and probably most everyone. I'd love for the CB to be much closer to the 8, but given what he have...I would line up the 8 to cheat the inside of the pocket and shoot with top spin which will help throw the 8 back to the center of the pocket.

...but before I do all that, I would look at the tangent line which looks be lined up to split the rack between the 3 & 13. This is usually a problem as that will slow the CB more than catching a ball more fully.

Fortunately, my top spin (if I hit with no more than medium speed) will get me a more thick hit on the 13 which will help me get the CB moving again towards the end rail. I might even put a slight inside english on the CB to get it to "bite into" the 13 and spin off the rack. I am playing position on the 10.

CueTable Help

 
Bob, Gerry, and Mosconiac,

You three seem to advocate a soft approach to this shot, so I was wondering if any of you have the ability to set this one up and youtube it for us?

My opinion: This breakshot naturally offers a very high yield. Intentionally playing it such that the only way to continue the run is to get a secondary breakshot behind the rack... it just doesn't seem like a very aggressive way to play straight pool.

I've been wrong a million times so this could easily be a million and one, lol ;). I'm very curious to see this youtubed. If any of you have the ability to upload it, please set the shot up 3 consecutive times... no need to actually shoot any secondary breakshots. I'm just curious how predictable these results are.

Thanks,
Steve
 
Steve Lipsky said:
Bob, Gerry, and Mosconiac,

You three seem to advocate a soft approach to this shot, so I was wondering if any of you have the ability to set this one up and youtube it for us?
Click to expand...
I happened to set this up this afternoon and shoot it once. I hadn't seen your post yet so I didn't record it...I was just goofing around.

Now that I look at the original setup again, I realize that I set the 8 a little high and close to the rack (maybe an inch or so each way). The position of the 8 is critical to how I would shoot this shot. A little higher (tangent hitting the 3 full) and I would draw it, a little lower and I follow (tangent hitting the 13 full).

Anyway, I hit the gap between the 13/3 and didn't get below the rack for the "10". Fortunately for me, the "15" popped out and I shot it in the side and began a short run (I dogged an easy ball at about 20-25 balls).

I will try to set it up more accurately this weekend and host a vid this Monday.

EDIT: To ensure I set it up properly (and others set it up the same as me if they attempt this shot), I drew up a way to accurately place the balls.

CueTable Help

 
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if i could shoot, i'd smack the cr@p out of it...there's too much of a chance to bury the cb. but since i miss the harder i hit, i'd use draw and hit it softer to pull the cb back out...doesn't look to me from the diagram that I would be able to pull the cb out to the center like blackjack,,,,,,but at least away from the pack.

this looks almost like an ervolino break, and the best solution is to drive the cb through the rack and spread the balls to kingdom come. cb might be a little to far though.
 
Mosconiac,

Just so you know, I drew back on the ball to avoid hitting that gap. I ended up hitting high on the 15 and trickling out to the center. I got about medium dispersement and I was awarded several secondary break opportunities - however I know that contacting the 15 was pure luck, not skill - and I would probably never be able to duplicate the results.

Bruin hit the nail on the head - this is a classic Johnny Ervolino shot. Lately I have started giving my break shots a bit more angle. I heard John Schmidt say that when he sees guys setting up straight in break shots, that he knows that they are lacking confidence on whether they can make the break ball. However, when he sees guys leaving a big angle such as this, he knows that those are the guys that are going to spread the pack and run a lot of balls.

A few things I have noticed about these types of angles are that you know that you will spread the stack well because of the angle. Also, due to the steepness of the angle, you aren't very likely to scratch or get stuck to the stack. These shots aren't that difficult when you get used to them, and believe me, when you start to see the results you get afterwards, you'l never try to "baby" one of these shots again.

Nick, I draw into the stack all of the time when I have to. I go back to Danny Harriman's rule on follow and draw -

"Remember that if the fifteenth ball and or the 'break ball' is close to the rack we draw the cue ball, if the breakshot ball and the rack have distance (more than three ball's width) then we should address the cue ball with follow, there are a few exception's but this will help you not be so worried about scratching off of the rack and increase your high run average." - Danny Harriman


This shot is one of those "either/or" situations where both would work and get you a great result, which is why I asked the question in the first place. :p

I look forward to your video, Mosconiac.
 
if you watch the truely great straight pool players they dont spread the pack. by spreading the pack balls tend to bunch up on the rails. in this game balls on the rail are the toughest balls and get you into trouble

i watch jose garcia play. his high is 362. he always bumps a few then a few more and finally when every ball has a pocket he makes his pattern. locates his break shot and finds his key balls

he also doesnt EVER touch a ball unless he has to

im blessed with 2 world class straightpool players as friends jose garcia and allen hopkins
 
i think your sipposed to follow that ball with a little high left at that angle i don't think you'll scratch
 
dave sutton said:
if you watch the truely great straight pool players they dont spread the pack. by spreading the pack balls tend to bunch up on the rails. in this game balls on the rail are the toughest balls and get you into trouble

i watch jose garcia play. his high is 362. he always bumps a few then a few more and finally when every ball has a pocket he makes his pattern. locates his break shot and finds his key balls

he also doesnt EVER touch a ball unless he has to

im blessed with 2 world class straightpool players as friends jose garcia and allen hopkins
Click to expand...


i like the way pat flemming breaks the pack. i got a tape of him playing grady mathews and he plays the way i want to, really agressive
 
dave sutton said:
if you watch the truely great straight pool players they dont spread the pack. by spreading the pack balls tend to bunch up on the rails. in this game balls on the rail are the toughest balls and get you into trouble

i watch jose garcia play. his high is 362. he always bumps a few then a few more and finally when every ball has a pocket he makes his pattern. locates his break shot and finds his key balls

he also doesnt EVER touch a ball unless he has to

im blessed with 2 world class straightpool players as friends jose garcia and allen hopkins
Click to expand...


Dave, the two players you mentioned are off-the-charts talented. The advice you gave in the post above is simply not conducive to improving runs for most players.

The reason that Allen and Jose can play like this is because of their ability to move the cueball so precisely, as well as their insight into exactly how to break a cluster. Finally, their pattern play is so pretty that they can see a jumble of balls and quickly deduce how to play it without really moving anything.

For players like this, there is no need to accept the slight volatility of hitting the rack hard.

There are a few handfuls of players alive with this ability. You named two of them and then claimed that everyone should play that way. I think you do a great disservice to amateur players trying to advocate this method.

I have seen more than my share of older players trying to play like this because they know the old-time pros did... most of them could run balls if they let themselves but instead, they just get stuck in the rack (or just run out of open balls to shoot), frame after frame.

- Steve
 
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