How Would You Play This? 12/19/08

I guess I was playing and unavailable for the coach. This is an interesting one Jude. You have to account for both players skill levels here.

If our teammate (stronger player) doesn't feel confident getting out here by breaking the cluster I would maybe recommend fouling on purpose and giving the opponent ball in hand. Crazy but it would be considered.

In addition to the ones already suggested an option that I like for the breakout would be below. I feel there's a good margin for error going this way. Forgive my cuetable if it's a little off. I'm a newbie with it.

CueTable Help

 
Eric. said:
Same idea i had, only, I prefer to have the cb hit the head rail first and carom into the 9, with a little more speed, to get the CB back to center table and not have to hit the cluster too hard.


*edit-CrownCC-looks like great minds think alike, lol

Eric
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I thought of the rail-first option as well. Came to me minutes after my initial post. Great minds do think alike! :D

Good thread!

Neil-- Btw, your thread the other day also encouraged me to take a stab at CueTable. Thanks!!
 
Chris_Lynch said:
I guess I was playing and unavailable for the coach. This is an interesting one Jude. You have to account for both players skill levels here.

If our teammate (stronger player) doesn't feel confident getting out here by breaking the cluster I would maybe recommend fouling on purpose and giving the opponent ball in hand. Crazy but it would be considered.

In addition to the ones already suggested an option that I like for the breakout would be below. I feel there's a good margin for error going this way. Forgive my cuetable if it's a little off. I'm a newbie with it.

CueTable Help

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Agreed - given the skill level of both players, I thought about simply passing the shot back (fouling). If it were a more challenging situation, I agree even more with that decision.

As for your alternative route to break open the cluster, I see what the advantages are but I also wonder if those advantages are somewhat outweighed by the added complexities. If he could do this shot, he should be able to control a direct hit, too. Ironically, since our teammate was taking such a long time to shoot, this thought did cross my mind.
 
Cornerman said:
That sly switching of the 8-ball and 9-ball would have confused your opponent into submission.

Fred
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Pretty good move, if you can get away with it. And, I will tell you:
I was playing Keith McCready once and snip- you missed it!!
 
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I know my opinion on what to do has waffled a bit. I was a teammate in position to offer advice, not the shooter. If it were me shooting, I think I would factor in a number of things before making a decision.

I'd like to run out here but the precise location of the 6 is going to determine exactly how I can run into the 8/9 and if I can't get an accurate hit on the 8/9, I'm not going to try it. If I can do as Neil (and others) have illustrated, I like this approach most. It allows me to control precisely where I hit the cluster and the speed.

I don't like drawing the cueball here. There's just so much bad that can happen. It would be more enticing if the cloth is new but assuming it would take a firm hit to get the cueball to do any travel, I have to assume some accuracy might be lost since anything other than straight is going to be more and more exaggerated, the harder I have to hit the cueball in order to draw it.

If I'm not feeling it, I'm laying up to play safe. I think we can all relate to the fact that sometimes, we're more inclined to "go for it" than other times. If I'm doubtful I can break this out, I'm going to play deliberate position to get a safety and hope for the best.
 
I don't play 9 ball in leagues, or even much at all, so I'll ask; is pocketing the 6 and calling safe an option? I'm guessing no, but who knows how different leagues work. If not, I like taking the cueball off the short rail (just before the 9) the into the 9 with right english (not much speed needed at all with the spin).
 
trustyrusty said:
I don't play 9 ball in leagues, or even much at all, so I'll ask; is pocketing the 6 and calling safe an option? I'm guessing no, but who knows how different leagues work. If not, I like taking the cueball off the short rail (just before the 9) the into the 9 with right english (not much speed needed at all with the spin).
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Unfortunately, that's not an option. In 9-ball, you are forced to shoot again when you legally pocket a ball. Only when you push (an option only available immediately after the break), is this not applicable.
 
lockwood said:
Make the six and draw to the middle of table. Play safe off right side of 8 ball and sending cue ball two rails to short rail. Try to leave the 8 behind the 9 ball, but there is no sell out if you don't hide the 8 ball.
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I like that, but being left handed I'd try to get the CB as close as possible to the 8/9 near the bottom long rail to maximize control of the safety shot.

pj
chgo
 
Chris_Lynch said:
I guess I was playing and unavailable for the coach. This is an interesting one Jude. You have to account for both players skill levels here.

If our teammate (stronger player) doesn't feel confident getting out here by breaking the cluster I would maybe recommend fouling on purpose and giving the opponent ball in hand. Crazy but it would be considered.

In addition to the ones already suggested an option that I like for the breakout would be below. I feel there's a good margin for error going this way. Forgive my cuetable if it's a little off. I'm a newbie with it.

CueTable Help

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I like this choice, because that's the best way to approach this cluster to minimize the chance that something bad will happen if you hit the cluster. One reason a good player must go for the runout here is that even if they miss the cluster, there are extremely few places on the table from which they can't do something constructive. Miss the cluster and they are still in the game, and that's even if they get hooked, given the relative simplicity of either the kick safe or the soft kick at the eight. The shot that loses the game here is to break the cluster and scratch off the nine, and I can see why even a good player might not want to chance doing that.
 
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sjm said:
I like this choice, because that's the best way to approach this cluster to minimize the chance that something bad will happen if you hit the cluster. One reason a good player must go for the runout here is that even if they miss the cluster, there are extremely few places on the table from which they can't do something constructive. Miss the cluster and they are still in the game, and that's even if they get hooked, given the relative simplicity of either the kick safe or the soft kick at the eight. The shot that loses the game here is to break the cluster and scratch off the nine, and I can see why even a good player might not want to chance doing that.
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I think I would sooner foul. with that shot, I could scratch in the side, corner or miss the balls! I wouldn't take BIH and try back spin when I can play it for natural break out. Only play here is off side rail (if ball isn't too far in jaws) or on end rail. I wouldn't try safe because I don't know what will happen when they try the hit. Trying the break I know what could happen. I land on the 8 and run.
 
Chris_Lynch said:
f our teammate (stronger player) doesn't feel confident getting out here by breaking the cluster I would maybe recommend fouling on purpose and giving the opponent ball in hand. Crazy but it would be considered.
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Exactly what I was thinking. If I were playing anyone below A speed, I would foul on purpose and let the deal with it. Risky, because anyone can get lucky... but being aggressive here (for me) could end worse. Against a better player, I'll give the cluster a shot.
 
sjm said:
I like this choice, because that's the best way to approach this cluster to minimize the chance that something bad will happen if you hit the cluster.
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I like this shot a little better, depending on how far one has to bend off the tangent line if they were to go straight at the 9 off the 6.

The BIG plus here is that you are aiming at a 3-4 ball wide target. And it's simple to execute.

Line up the tangent off the six to the first rail target, keeping in mind that left spin will be on the CB when it reaches that rail. Figure out where it will hit on the second rail with that spin...If it will not hit the 8/9, adjust the first rail contact point.

I'd be willing to bet, that after I shot a 2 rail breakout attempt, I will either run out, or my opponent will be completely snookered behind the 9.

Russ
 
Jason Robichaud said:
I think I would sooner foul. with that shot, I could scratch in the side, corner or miss the balls! I wouldn't take BIH and try back spin when I can play it for natural break out. Only play here is off side rail (if ball isn't too far in jaws) or on end rail. I wouldn't try safe because I don't know what will happen when they try the hit. Trying the break I know what could happen. I land on the 8 and run.
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I have to agree with you that coming into the eight off the side rail is excellent, but according to Jude's initial post, the six is very deep in the jaws of the pocket. I don't like running into the nine here nearly as much.
 
For the record, I never thought a 3 ball scenario would garner such a variety of options from so many good players. However, I did know when I saw the layout, I had a good one for you guys!

Everybody has been great. Thanks!
 
I still think that a good way to go is the way I diagrammed earlier and thanks to SJM for backing me up on that. I would gladly waste 2 coaches on this out if the breakout didn't result in an easy out and a safe had to be played. The draw shots are a little harder to control and you could easily miss the cluster or scratch off of it or straight in if hit incorrectly.

The coach would be completely different if Jude was shooting it as he has the ability to do all of the above. I think it's important to build in margin of error when coaching a weaker teammate. The different responses have been interesting and I like almost all of them. Good post, Jude.
 
sjm said:
I like this choice, because that's the best way to approach this cluster to minimize the chance that something bad will happen if you hit the cluster. One reason a good player must go for the runout here is that even if they miss the cluster, there are extremely few places on the table from which they can't do something constructive. Miss the cluster and they are still in the game, and that's even if they get hooked, given the relative simplicity of either the kick safe or the soft kick at the eight. The shot that loses the game here is to break the cluster and scratch off the nine, and I can see why even a good player might not want to chance doing that.[/QUOTE
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I don't like this approach at all. I don't think Sang lee would chance sending the cue ball 15 ft and have to be that perfect from all the distance,speed,entry coming in. If you come in too long a kick shot is not a sure thing. Straight Rail Billiards101 , play or set the angle natural for shortest distance. I would say on this angle that I see play the shot short
1: It's obvious the best chance for good things to happen is to come in under the 9
2: You won't catch the 9 high and possibly scratch
3: If you miss the balls you now have the perfect angle for a fairly easy safe without having a possible kick safe.
Of course bad things can happen when going into balls. The player in this situation is said to be a strong player,that being said cue ball control here should not be too confusing. I dont think sending the cue ball around the world is good way to go.
Giving ball in hand is surely not the way to go.
Just my opinion if you are looking to open a shot.

I agree with Lockwood 100%. Bring the cue ball center table or over towards the opposite long rail and you have a very easy safety play
Safe is a no brainer here but sometimes a player decides to go for it.
At that point you are either a hero or a zero and and all the birds have something to say
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SmoothStroke said:
Safe is a no brainer here but sometimes a player decides to go for it.
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Anyone who can get really good shape on the safety can probably break the cluster, but no matter. Let's say you choose to play onto the safety and succeed. If executed well. the eight moves just an inch or two, and the eight and the nine, which are frozen, will separate. I doubt the safety would result in a snooker as often as 5% of the time when the eight is frozen to the bottom cushion, and even then, the kick safe repsonse isn't terribly difficult. Actually, if the eight and nine don't separate, the response to the safety is even easier than if they do separate anywhere from a few inches to a foot. If the eight and the nine do separate, then the safety battle is on, and you, having played the safe have an advantage, but my guess is you'll only win seven times out of ten given the position.

It doesn't make sense to treat the safety as a shot that will win the rack here. A good tactician has a fair chance to win the rack even responding to that safety.

In my opinion, the safety is not a no-brainer, but a play that's way too passive. A good player can go for the win, while retaining a reasonable chance to win the rack even if the breakout is not executed.

I respect your opinion, but strongly disagree with it.
 
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I can't see myself ever playing safe here. To win matches against strong opponents you need to get out every time you are supposed to and maybe a couple times when you're not supposed to. I think the safety should be the last resort here and not the first option.

If there were other balls to get behind and actually force a kick it would be better. You're going to separate the balls and leave your opponent something. I don't like giving my opponents the first chance to win the game. My opinion and my style of play of course. I'm not saying anyone is wrong here.
 
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