I Bet There Are A few That Could be pro

[iusedtoberich]

I think we as fans want to see the best of the best play. We don't care to see the local hero (unless he is local to us) play Corey or Archer or Busty.... We want to see Corey play Archer, and Archer play Busty, and every match in a tournament be of that caliber.

I say cut out the 64 and 128 man fields that are fluff. The current model is the fluff pays for the top guys that cash. But the fans don't care about the fluff, they only watch the big guys. Make the whole tournament ONLY the big guys. Make it limited to 16 players for now. If the whole sport grows, open it to 32 players. But today, I think it can only support 16 players.

A few entities are doing this now:

1. TAR with their one on one action matches of the big guys
2. Accu-Stats with their Make it Happen events of only the big guys
3. Diamond with their Big Foot events, that, via the $1000 entry fee, only the big guys enter
4. Griffin is hinting towards doing the same thing on his latest podcast, only having a specific small number of handpicked guys to be in his pro events.

Call this 16 player field the pro tour.

If it takes off, you can have qualifiers for it. Joe Tuckers ABC league can be the qualifier. The top finishers in his national championship can take future spots that open up in the filed of 16. Every year, the bottom quarter performers of the "pro tour" are replaced by the top performers on Tucker's ABC tour.

Or, have a system like Glen is talking about to determine who is in or out.


You can easily just vote in the top 16 in the first year or two, we all know who they are.

But the main point is, however you get the top 16 guys, is to make a product that is marketable to the fans, and the sponsors. The fans don't care about Joe Shmo. The fans want to see the top guys, and that's it. And if the fans show up, there is a tiny chance the sponsors will too, and then the whole thing grows.

This whole line of thinking requires breaking out of the current paradigm we are in, of large fields filled with fluff.

My railbird 3 cents

 

[Johnnyt]

Well Johnny, it's clear you have no idea as to where to draw the line at being a "Pro" pool player, which is why you make such stupid comments toward me...like, just because I work on pool tables, and have for the last 30 years...I CAN'T possibly know anything about this sport/game...well, that's where you're wrong buddy. Argue with this logic:

My idea is to create a skill level test which must be performed on a Diamond 10' ProAm with standard/ProCut pockets before any "Pro's ONLY" events take place, and the test shall be as follows:

The test will be scored on a 20 rack total score. Player breaks a full rack of balls, if upon the break, scratches...that will end the inning and no points will be awarded, as a scratch on the break is a foul.

Next, upon a legal break, and playing from where the cue ball lays as well as all the object balls, a player then must attempt to clear the table in order to acquire as many points as possible. Scoring is as follows, all balls pocketed in any order are worth 1 point each, until there are only 5 balls remaining on the table, in which the last remaining balls must be pocketed in numerical order and are then worth 2 points per ball. Having cleared the rack without a foul or missing a shot, the total number of points received would be 20 points. In order to score an EVEN score such as in golf, being a PAR score, the player must break even in order to have a PAR score. Failure to do so would result in an OVER par score such as +4 or say +8 final score for that round. A scratch on the break would be an automatic +20 score.

Bonus points are awarded to any balls made on the break, being +1 point per ball, giving them a +2 point value. So, if a player made to balls on the break, plus successfully cleared the rack, the score for that round would be a -2 under par.

So, all players having taken a skill level test in order to determine their eligibility to play in a "Pro's ONLY" event would end up setting the BAR as to what is considered to be "PRO" since you're so hung up on that word, but what it would also do...in which you fail to understand....is create the level of "Semi PRO" in which most of the so called BETTER players actually belong. THIS would also help to establish the much needed "Semi PRO" division of this sport, as well as the "Advanced PLAYER" and "Intermediate Player" as well.

This kind of testing would break this sport down into 4 divisions of players, leading to the top...the "Best of the Best" It would also allow for the highest rated semi pro to take the place of a "Pro" that can't make it to a required event, therefore canceling out any "bye" at the beginning of any event.

The lack of requirement, the not knowing who's who in this sport, the lack of organizing in this sport to the point of NOT really knowing who the PROFESSIONALS are...is why it's never gone anywhere, why it's never really picked up a real sponsors...and the reason is....BECAUSE of people like you,...that's right...like YOU.

YOU and everyone like you feel like you have some god given right to play in tournaments in which PRO's are competing....because YOU have the money to pay the entry fees in which these so called tournaments need so badly in order to even take place. YOU and every one like you are the reason PROFESSIONAL pool players find it so hard to make a living in this sport....because YOU insist on being one of them....everytime you enter into a tournament to play against the "PRO's" This is why the races to win are short, this is why there is double elimination events...this is why "Pro's" losing their first round don't get paid.

In MY scheme of things, only the PRO's play...and get paid right after their first....single elimination loss...in a race to at least 21 games to win/lose....BECAUSE....they made the CUT to be a "PRO" in that certain event...and therefore should be able to make SOME kind of pay for that feat alone!!!

For an example, divisions may look a little like this:

Pro +5 to maybe -20

Semi Pro +20 to +6

Advanced +75 to +21

Intermediate +125 to +76

Glen

Your idea that was stole from Allen Hopkins Skill Level Test that he made 20+ years ago.

Me play in tournaments? Hardly ever and I never wanted to win the ones I entered. I wanted a money game with the top money finishes after the tournament. As far as you as a table mechanic, you seem to be good, but you charge way too much, take too much time getting to and doing the job. There are table mechanics out there that can do the same good job if they could charge what you do and take days to finish a one-table job. Your clients mostly have a lot of money and want who they hear/think is the best. Enjoy it while you can as everything is going to catch up to you soon and you will just be an installer, (furniture installer).

W/O the dead money in pro/open events there would be 25% of the money there is now in most tournaments. You haven’t solved anything and your skill level idea was stole/copied from someone else…a real pro. Johnnyt

 

[Cdryden]

While I do think there probably are a few here that could, I don't put myself in that category. I have seen pros burning thru racks up close and personal, it was humbling to say the least.
I can hold my own with the locals and that's good enough for me at this point.

 

[Nine ... corner]

The fluff as it's being called is who is providing the bulk of the payouts. Why do you think the highest paid "sporting event", the WSOP can pay out $8.5 million dollars to the winner? Because there is a ton of dead money aka fluff.

 

[BasementDweller]

I think it's clearly true that if there was more money in pool there would great players coming out of the woodwork. That's a saying right???

I think pool in the U.S. has clearly taken a hit -- post IPT. I can sit here and think of a dozen or more players just in the Midwest that can play professional level pool. Maybe not quite top flight, but pretty strong.

I think of a guy like Shawn Putnam. I think there are or were at one time, quite a few guys that played right around his speed that just gave up on the game. I guess a lot of these guys are getting older now and I really don't see who is going to replace them. We all (myself included) talk about Shane like he's a young kid but actually he's almost 30 now. Where are the 18 year old phenoms? Nowhere to be found.

I think the picture in the U.S. would be much bleaker if it wasn't for the growth of the game everywhere else (Europe & Asia).

My only hope for the game here in the U.S. is that maybe things have bottomed out. How much worse can it get?

 

[realkingcobra]

Your idea that was stole from Allen Hopkins Skill Level Test that he made 20+ years ago.

Me play in tournaments? Hardly ever and I never wanted to win the ones I entered. I wanted a money game with the top money finishes after the tournament. As far as you as a table mechanic, you seem to be good, but you charge way too much, take too much time getting to and doing the job. There are table mechanics out there that can do the same good job if they could charge what you do and take days to finish a one-table job. Your clients mostly have a lot of money and want who they hear/think is the best. Enjoy it while you can as everything is going to catch up to you soon and you will just be an installer, (furniture installer).

W/O the dead money in pro/open events there would be 25% of the money there is now in most tournaments. You haven’t solved anything and your skill level idea was stole/copied from someone else…a real pro. Johnnyt

Stole? No, you have no idea, if that were the case...name one tournament that has taken place, that the players were required to take a skill level test BEFORE the event took place, to decide who was going to play, and who wasn't?

 

[Johnnyt]

Stole? No, you have no idea, if that were the case...name one tournament that has taken place, that the players were required to take a skill level test BEFORE the event took place, to decide who was going to play, and who wasn't?

It's not a good test for what you want to use it for. No defense in it. And you know pool? Johnnyt

 

[Jaden]

Well what you would have to do...

Stole? No, you have no idea, if that were the case...name one tournament that has taken place, that the players were required to take a skill level test BEFORE the event took place, to decide who was going to play, and who wasn't?

You would have to require that all entrants meet a certain criteria and that they take the q challenge at an authorized test center or pool hall prior to being allowed to sign up.

There is still one problem with this though. I would still qualify for every tournament even though I usually don't compete well. I can play top level pool but don't compete well. I'm getting better at competing but still have trouble closing (3 of the last four open tournies I played in I lost after being on the hill and several games ahead. One up 8-4 in a race to nine alternating break, one up 6-2 in a race to 7).

If you look at the driver maker tournaments that we had here I qualified at a pro level in every one that I participated in and I did it on super tough conditions 4" pockets.

Although I have finished respectfully in most of the tournaments that I have competed in, I also have dogged it horribly at times too. I haven't been able to compete in many although I'm hoping for that to change in the near future.

You may find that many people will fall into the same category as me...

Jaden

 

[realkingcobra]

There are table mechanics out there that can do the same good job if they could charge what you do and take days to finish a one-table job.

Now you're just being dumb, making a statement like that. It's not a matter of the money, if it were then a table mechanic's skills would be based on the price they charge, but that's not the case. If a mechanic don't know how to work on a table at MY level of expertise, then no amount of money you pay that person...is going to get the job done any better, they just don't have the skills. I've traveled this country from coast to coast, and worked in 49 states...as a table mechanic, so I've seen the work of MANY...MANY other table mechanic's and I can safely say...you have no idea what you're talking about. And you think I charge to much?...LOL I look at it this way, if a customer is willing to pay X amount of dollars to someone that don't know how to do the job right, so...how much are they willing to pay someone who KNOWS how to do the job right!!!...the SAME as they'd pay someone that don't know what they're doing??????...I don't think so, not a chance!! I've paid my dues, earned the right to charge what I charge...and see no reason that I should have to lower my rates for the likes of someone like you...just because YOU think I charge to much....who in the hell do YOU think you are?!?!

 

[realkingcobra]

You would have to require that all entrants meet a certain criteria and that they take the q challenge at an authorized test center or pool hall prior to being allowed to sign up.

There is still one problem with this though. I would still qualify for every tournament even though I usually don't compete well. I can play top level pool but don't compete well. I'm getting better at competing but still have trouble closing (3 of the last four open tournies I played in I lost after being on the hill and several games ahead. One up 8-4 in a race to nine alternating break, one up 6-2 in a race to 7).

If you look at the driver maker tournaments that we had here I qualified at a pro level in every one that I participated in and I did it on super tough conditions 4" pockets.

Although I have finished respectfully in most of the tournaments that I have competed in, I also have dogged it horribly at times too. I haven't been able to compete in many although I'm hoping for that to change in the near future.

You may find that many people will fall into the same category as me...

Jaden

Well, short races and double elimination tournaments are not something I agree with. 10 ball, 9, ball and 8 ball needs to be played at a Pro level of at least to a race to 21 games minumum, or to a set match time limit. That way, only the player that SHOULD win, is in fact the one that DOES win.

Semi Pro's should play to a lesser amount of games to win a match, and below that rating, the match should be less games in a match also.

 

[poolmouse]

Define the requirements of a "Pro"...is there a test or something that needs to be passed first in order to be considered a "Pro"?

The term "Pro" implies the person is making a living at it. Aside from this year's top 10-20 in the world who might make a recent income, the rest are delusional. And this year's "successful Pros" are next year's homeless. And those who have full time jobs won't get to the level they need to be to "maybe" win that tournament that "might" earn them enough to pay their bills, "if" they can afford that house or car. The vast majority of "Pro" players are chasing a worthless dream, wasting time and effort, perhaps holding a menial labor job, or maybe a high paying job, for sure wishing the word "pro" actually meant more than the compensating for something more important that's missing in their lives. A piece if advice for prospective "pro" players, don't be a fool. Don't try to play the game of pool to earn a living...instead, earn a living to play the game of pool. Don't waste your life with the game...instead enhance your life with the game.

 

[Jaden]

I agree with you on that.

Well, short races and double elimination tournaments are not something I agree with. 10 ball, 9, ball and 8 ball needs to be played at a Pro level of at least to a race to 21 games minumum, or to a set match time limit. That way, only the player that SHOULD win, is in fact the one that DOES win.

Semi Pro's should play to a lesser amount of games to win a match, and below that rating, the match should be less games in a match also.

I agree with you on this.

Jaden

 

[iusedtoberich]

The fluff as it's being called is who is providing the bulk of the payouts. Why do you think the highest paid "sporting event", the WSOP can pay out $8.5 million dollars to the winner? Because there is a ton of dead money aka fluff.

Yes, I understand this. There is a big difference between pool and poker players: Poker players are dumb. Every single pool/poker player I've met at the pool room during the back room games thinks they know all the odds, and can be a pro poker player. These same guys are C/B/A players in pool, and know exactly where they stand on the table and won't make a bad pool game. But poker, forget about it, they all lose their money. They all go to Atlantic City, and now the local casinos that popped up everywhere since all the laws changed, and lose it all.

Thats why poker works being fed by its "fluff" players. They all think they have a shot and their are TONS of them.

The whole reason to eliminate the fluff players in pool, is to create a small, portable, cohesive group of 16 TOP guys that can be organized into a legitimate pro tool, and that will attract sponsors. The sponsors pay the bills in this model, not the fluff players.

Like I said, its a complete paradigm shift from where we are today and where we have been in the pool world.

Again, this is all fantasy land talk. The words "cohesive" and "organized" and "pro player" have not lasted long before...

 

[iusedtoberich]

...snip...
If you look at the driver maker tournaments that we had here I qualified at a pro level in every one that I participated in and I did it on super tough conditions 4" pockets.
...snip...

I participated in our own Hopkins skill test tournaments as well. I recall one of the posters several years ago in one of the tournament threads mentioned that Parica ran 20 straight racks of 20 points each rack. I could be off slightly on the number, but it was something like that.

That test is certainly a good test, but all the top guys would be scoring 20's left and right, imo.

 

[Jaden]

There's a tendency to over rate the top players.

I participated in our own Hopkins skill test tournaments as well. I recall one of the posters several years ago in one of the tournament threads mentioned that Parica ran 20 straight racks of 20 points each rack. I could be off slightly on the number, but it was something like that.

That test is certainly a good test, but all the top guys would be scoring 20's left and right, imo.

Yes Parica did that I'm sure. Many are capable of it, but even the top players don't do it all the time.

People always say so and so ran a six pack etc.. like that is the rule and not the exception.

The people that actually WIN the tournaments and are playing their best don't have six packs in every tournament. They're lucky to have a 40% break and run when they're playing at their best.

No one talks about the times when they don't play well, but you have to look at people's averages, not just their top play. The best, like Shane, Orcullo, Johnny, Appleton, etc... have less disparity in their top gear and their bottom gear, but there is still disparity.

Besides, even if the absolute best do it regularly, then you're still not gonna have 64 players that do it enough to make it difficult to discern who should be playing in a given tournament.

Jaden

 

[realkingcobra]

Besides, even if the absolute best do it regularly, then you're still not gonna have 64 players that do it enough to make it difficult to discern who should be playing in a given tournament.

Jaden

Out of a 64 player field, I wouldn't care if the top 50 players had the same exact test score, and the remaining 14 had a little lower test scores, bottom line is that they would have at the least...earned the right to be there, whereas the rest of the pool playing world would be right where they belong....watching the "PRO'S" fighting it out for ONE champion:grin:

 

[realkingcobra]

In Washington state.

Just a reminder, I'm going to be finishing up with the couple of tables I'm working on right now pretty soon, so if you have a Diamond and want it worked on, or converted from a red label to a blue label playing table...send me a PM or call me at 702-927-5689...before I leave the state, because then I'll be gone...and you'll be SOL...LOL

Glen

 

[Idaho]

Well Johnny, it's clear you have no idea as to where to draw the line at being a "Pro" pool player, which is why you make such stupid comments toward me...like, just because I work on pool tables, and have for the last 30 years...I CAN'T possibly know anything about this sport/game...well, that's where you're wrong buddy. Argue with this logic:

My idea is to create a skill level test which must be performed on a Diamond 10' ProAm with standard/ProCut pockets before any "Pro's ONLY" events take place, and the test shall be as follows:

The test will be scored on a 20 rack total score. Player breaks a full rack of balls, if upon the break, scratches...that will end the inning and no points will be awarded, as a scratch on the break is a foul.

Next, upon a legal break, and playing from where the cue ball lays as well as all the object balls, a player then must attempt to clear the table in order to acquire as many points as possible. Scoring is as follows, all balls pocketed in any order are worth 1 point each, until there are only 5 balls remaining on the table, in which the last remaining balls must be pocketed in numerical order and are then worth 2 points per ball. Having cleared the rack without a foul or missing a shot, the total number of points received would be 20 points. In order to score an EVEN score such as in golf, being a PAR score, the player must break even in order to have a PAR score. Failure to do so would result in an OVER par score such as +4 or say +8 final score for that round. A scratch on the break would be an automatic +20 score.

Bonus points are awarded to any balls made on the break, being +1 point per ball, giving them a +2 point value. So, if a player made to balls on the break, plus successfully cleared the rack, the score for that round would be a -2 under par.

So, all players having taken a skill level test in order to determine their eligibility to play in a "Pro's ONLY" event would end up setting the BAR as to what is considered to be "PRO" since you're so hung up on that word, but what it would also do...in which you fail to understand....is create the level of "Semi PRO" in which most of the so called BETTER players actually belong. THIS would also help to establish the much needed "Semi PRO" division of this sport, as well as the "Advanced PLAYER" and "Intermediate Player" as well.

This kind of testing would break this sport down into 4 divisions of players, leading to the top...the "Best of the Best" It would also allow for the highest rated semi pro to take the place of a "Pro" that can't make it to a required event, therefore canceling out any "bye" at the beginning of any event.

The lack of requirement, the not knowing who's who in this sport, the lack of organizing in this sport to the point of NOT really knowing who the PROFESSIONALS are...is why it's never gone anywhere, why it's never really picked up a real sponsors...and the reason is....BECAUSE of people like you,...that's right...like YOU.

YOU and everyone like you feel like you have some god given right to play in tournaments in which PRO's are competing....because YOU have the money to pay the entry fees in which these so called tournaments need so badly in order to even take place. YOU and every one like you are the reason PROFESSIONAL pool players find it so hard to make a living in this sport....because YOU insist on being one of them....everytime you enter into a tournament to play against the "PRO's" This is why the races to win are short, this is why there is double elimination events...this is why "Pro's" losing their first round don't get paid.

In MY scheme of things, only the PRO's play...and get paid right after their first....single elimination loss...in a race to at least 21 games to win/lose....BECAUSE....they made the CUT to be a "PRO" in that certain event...and therefore should be able to make SOME kind of pay for that feat alone!!!

For an example, divisions may look a little like this:

Pro +5 to maybe -20

Semi Pro +20 to +6

Advanced +75 to +21

Intermediate +125 to +76

Glen

So Glen, you think the pros really want that? What would the payouts look like without the dead money that enters? So you shrink the field to 64, big deal. Why not fill it with whoever wants to enter and let the cream rise to the top for more money? I know you said you have the idea to fix pro pool. For shit's sake, I hope this isn't it. :thumbup::grin::wink::grin-square: (I can use smiley's too)

 

[realkingcobra]

So Glen, you think the pros really want that? What would the payouts look like without the dead money that enters? So you shrink the field to 64, big deal. Why not fill it with whoever wants to enter and let the cream rise to the top for more money? I know you said you have the idea to fix pro pool. For shit's sake, I hope this isn't it. :thumbup::grin::wink::grin-square: (I can use smiley's too)

Don't worry to much about what I'm planning on doing, it's way over your head

 

[Tramp Steamer]

I apologize for not reading all the posts, but in answer to your statement, Johnny, I would suspect there are lots of amateurs who could play at the professional level. The question remains, however, why would they want to.
The hours are long. The pay is low. The food is bad. And, it's oftimes hard to see through the smoke. :smile: