I Used to Use a System But Now....

[Dan White]

Then tell him exactly what he needs to do, Mr. Pro Instructor Dan...not just what his problems are. You ARE a professional instructor, correct? Where does he go from here?

I guess what you've never heard about is something called "RUST". Even a pro player gets it. An amateur has it set in a lot faster.

I thought his post was very astute and on the mark for "regular" pool players who don't rely on pool for a living. Guess he's not in your league.

So you think it's normal for an amateur players game to fall apart after 3 days?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Here's what I'm saying when I say "everyone aims by feel:"

I've come to the conclusion that there are no aiming systems that can put you on the exact correct shot line. I believe this because systems like CTE are discrete, meaning if you follow them exactly to the letter, the object ball can only go in a number of finite directions. There are several respected physicists who say the exact same thing, and since these people also have expertise in billiards, I think their opinion is worth listening to.

Who are these physicists? I thought they were engineers. How have they fared in professional play? How are they recognized in the world of professional instructors who give lessons to pros in person as opposed to the internet?

On the flip side, I have yet to meet anybody who can explain in regular english how CTE works... not one. So although I'd like there to be a system that puts you on the exact shot line, I do not believe it exists.

That's your problem for being deaf and dumb and not seeing the main man, Stan Shuffet in person.

What I do believe is that the exact correct shot line can only be found through trial and error, which I called "feel."

What this is called is REINVENTING THE WHEEL WHEN IT'S DONE BY TRIAL AND ERROR. EVERYTHING OUT THERE HAS ALREADY BEEN CALCULATED THROUGH TRIAL AND ERROR INTO A SYSTEM! THEY ALREADY EXIST!

To answer your question, you cannot really tell a person how to aim, other than something like "ghost ball plus allow for throw." Put an object ball 1 diamond off the side rail and 2 diamonds off the foot rail. Put the cue ball 4 diamonds up table from there and have a beginner shoot this shot 50 times a day. He will gain a sense of where to aim in order to pocket the shot. I call this shooting by feel, and EVERYBODY who can play at all plays like this. How can I be so confident? 1) because, like I said above, there are no systems that can put you on the shot line, and 2) I can do it easily and naturally, and I'm certainly no big fish. If I can do it, every pro can, too. There are no shots where I "just can't see the shot and need something to fall back on." Aiming is almost a complete non issue. Let me say this -- a player may have a particular "system" like line up the side of the tip with the center of the cue ball, or whatever. In the end, it is his "feel" that makes the shot. I consider the rest of it to be just a pre shot routine, something done the same way every time to provide consistency. I guess for some it is helpful to do some kind of trick thing like put the tip on the cloth first, or edge of the shaft somewhere.

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH and BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. Then become the GREATEST INSTRUCTOR OF YOUR NON-SYSTEM.

The real key to all this, of course, is the stroke. It is a fallacy to believe that a player can follow a set of instructions like CTE and start pocketing balls without regard to the quality of their stroke. I never hear Stan mention the importance of a great stroke. Most people cannot deliver the cue straight and on the intended line of aim. Delivering the cue straight and on the correct line = 90 or 95% of the battle. Aiming correctly = 5 or 10%, IMO. Those who do not have a reasonably perfect stroke will not understand this.

Now you can incorporate stroke training. More power to you.

I always like the analogy of using the Iron Willie stroke machine. If you could magically turn your body into an Iron Willie machine, you'd probably never miss again. To answer your other question, the pro's are so good (in addition to other things, of course) because they have superior strokes. I can aim as well as Efren, and you probably can, too, but the stroke makes the difference.

And how do you teach the stroke of Efren and Bustamante that comes in from all different angles from where they were originally set up for??
They certainly are NOT conventional with PURE STRAIGHT STROKES!

Hal Houle told me something when we first came in touch with each other. He said Lou Figueroa and Pat Johnson were two of the biggest IDIOTS on pool forums that he'd ever seen. You've been one of their best buddies from years ago and in their camp. Some how you must have passed under his radar or he just thought you weren't worth the compliment at the time. I think the compliment would have been well deserved.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

So you think it's normal for an amateur players game to fall apart after 3 days?

Who said fall apart? The sharpness Isn't as acute. Even when playing everyday, overconfidence and becoming lax can make play deteriorate. It can be a double edge sword.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

So you think it's normal for an amateur players game to fall apart after 3 days?

Hey Danny Boy...sorry if I missed it but where is YOUR video for the great pool "physicist" Dr. Dave on his shooting challenge?

Post it andl then start a thread about what you were thinking about or NOT thinking about in each of the tests.

 

[Dan White]

Who said fall apart? The sharpness Isn't as acute. Even when playing everyday, overconfidence and becoming lax can make play deteriorate. It can be a double edge sword.

His exact words were "after a break for even a few days everything can be off. My cue will feel foreign in my hands and I will have to mechanically aim at the balls until everything comes back together at the same time."

In other words, everything falls apart, like I said. What you said above has nothing to do with anything anybody said.

 

[Dan White]

Spiderwebb said in italics:

Who are these physicists? I thought they were engineers. How have they fared in professional play? How are they recognized in the world of professional instructors who give lessons to pros in person as opposed to the internet?

Bob Jewett, for one, physicist and long term instructor. Dr. Dave is a PhD in mechanical engineering and an expert on billiards, and also teaches. There others, but honestly how many do you need?

That's your problem for being deaf and dumb and not seeing the main man, Stan Shuffet in person.

lol. I have to travel to Kentucky and see a guy in person and only then can he explain it. lol

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH and BLAH, BLAH, BLAH

That makes more sense than anything else you've said yet. Congratulations.

And how do you teach the stroke of Efren and Bustamante that comes in from all different angles from where they were originally set up for??
They certainly are NOT conventional with PURE STRAIGHT STROKES!

Nobody should teach their strokes. Efren grew up sleeping under a pool table and didn't go to school. He learned by seeing others and perfected what he does because he was playing practically from birth. He told Mark Wilson he might be even better if he learned proper fundamentals.

He said Lou Figueroa and Pat Johnson were two of the biggest IDIOTS...Some how you must have passed under his radar

I think my comments are pretty reasonable and agree with observations.

I'm not sure why you are so bent out of shape over this stuff. Try some new meds, maybe?

 

[Dan White]

Hey Danny Boy...sorry if I missed it but where is YOUR video for the great pool "physicist" Dr. Dave on his shooting challenge?

Post it andl then start a thread about what you were thinking about or NOT thinking about in each of the tests.

You've seen enough of my videos to know I can play well enough at least to have an informed opinion. What about you? You're always barking at people because they're not good enough players to have a valid opinion. What makes you such an expert that you can tell everybody they don't know what they are talking about? (Notice that nobody asks you that because it is a stupid point. Logic and deductive reasoning is more important than playing ability.

 

[BasementDweller]

So you think it's normal for an amateur players game to fall apart after 3 days?

I never said my game falls apart.

3, 4, or 5 days? I don't know how many days exactly. I do know you're reading way too much into my post. I can tell you that I wouldn't be matching up with anyone a day after being on a family vacation. Maybe you and Duckie are much better than I thought since you aren't familiar with feeling uncomfortable at the table. Or maybe you are taking the "It's just like riding a bike" too literally. I play or practice just about every day. If I take a break for a few days, it will take a while to get locked back in. I'm pretty confident that this is VERY normal.

 

[Dan White]

I never said my game falls apart.

3, 4, or 5 days? I don't know how many days exactly. I do know you're reading way too much into my post. I can tell you that I wouldn't be matching up with anyone a day after being on a family vacation. Maybe you and Duckie are much better than I thought since you aren't familiar with feeling uncomfortable at the table. Or maybe you are taking the "It's just like riding a bike" too literally. I play or practice just about every day. If I take a break for a few days, it will take a while to get locked back in. I'm pretty confident that this VERY normal.

Well you're right. I don't want to overstate my point. You did paint a pretty strong picture of what happens after just a couple of days, though. I stick to my initial point that if you have trouble getting back in stroke it may be that your mechanics are off... just something to consider.

 

[BasementDweller]

Well you're right. I don't want to overstate my point. You did paint a pretty strong picture of what happens after just a couple of days, though. I stick to my initial point that if you have trouble getting back in stroke it may be that your mechanics are off... just something to consider.

Good grief dude -- I never said I have trouble getting back into stroke. Stop reading stuff into my posts that's not there.

Another thing -- my mechanics are constantly a work in progress since I'm not a professional player. I just tried to make a fairly mundane point. It's no different really than playing in the zone versus playing more consciously. After not playing for a few days my play can be a bit more mechanical. It's nothing more than that. I can even play half way decent this way. It just takes a lot more work and it probably looks more like work if you were to watch me.

 

[Dan White]

Good grief dude -- I never said I have trouble getting back into stroke. Stop reading stuff into my posts that's not there.

Another thing -- my mechanics are constantly a work in progress since I'm not a professional player. I just tried to make a fairly mundane point. It's no different really than playing in the zone versus playing more consciously. After not playing for a few days my play can be a bit more mechanical. It's nothing more than that. I can even play half way decent this way. It just takes a lot more work and it probably looks more like work if you were to watch me.

Dude - you said "The flip side is -- after a break for even a few days everything can be off. My cue will feel foreign in my hands and I will have to mechanically aim at the balls until everything comes back together at the same time."

If, after even a few days, "everything" is not really off, then please don't say it is, and then a few posts later say you play "a bit more mechanical...even play half way decent this way." Pardon me for reading and responding to what you actually wrote instead of what you apparently meant. Look at it from my point of view.

Having said that, I don't want to start a big argument over apparently nothing. I was trying to be helpful. If you aren't really playing that off after a few days then fine. If you are, then there is something wrong with your mechanics. How about we just leave it at that?

 

[mista335]

Put an object ball 1 diamond off the side rail and 2 diamonds off the foot rail. Put the cue ball 4 diamonds up table.

You have a lot of sweeping statements about CTE. Doesn't sound like you know squat about CTE.

Can you shoot that simple shot using CTE?

If so, describe the process.

If not, the defence rests.

 

[Dan White]

You have a lot of sweeping statements about CTE. Doesn't sound like you know squat about CTE.

Can you shoot that simple shot using CTE?

If so, describe the process.

If not, the defence rests.

Use the search function if you are so inclined and you can wade through a year of CTE discussion. My intro to CTE was from Hal Houle, if that gives me any credibility. I've made my conclusions about CTE and don't care to get back into endless debate about it. If you think it works, then more power to you.

I like your avatar, BTW.

 

[tonythetiger583]

I think my comments are pretty reasonable and agree with observations.

I'm not sure why you are so bent out of shape over this stuff. Try some new meds, maybe?

As someone whose been working on cte for a year now, and shoots 100% with cte, you're comments are completely reasonable. I don't know how name calling is supposed to convince you otherwise.

 

[mista335]

Use the search function if you are so inclined and you can wade through a year of CTE discussion. My intro to CTE was from Hal Houle, if that gives me any credibility. I've made my conclusions about CTE and don't care to get back into endless debate about it. If you think it works, then more power to you.

I like your avatar, BTW.

Sorry, I thought you might have had some experience with CTE.

Thought it might have been a prerequisite for all the sweeping statements you made about CTE.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Spiderwebb said in italics:

Who are these physicists? I thought they were engineers. How have they fared in professional play? How are they recognized in the world of professional instructors who give lessons to pros in person as opposed to the internet?

Bob Jewett, for one, physicist and long term instructor. Dr. Dave is a PhD in mechanical engineering and an expert on billiards, and also teaches. There others, but honestly how many do you need?

Oh, you mean the two obvious ones. The INTERNET ones who give lessons on the internet, not to pro players.

That's your problem for being deaf and dumb and not seeing the main man, Stan Shuffet in person.

lol. I have to travel to Kentucky and see a guy in person and only then can he explain it. lol

Oh no, not at all. Stan would be more than happy to travel to NJ on his own tab to teach you in person because you're such a world renowned player who spreads wisdom and excitement for the game to millions across the globe. ROTFLMAO!

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH and BLAH, BLAH, BLAH

That makes more sense than anything else you've said yet. Congratulations.

Thanks. It certainly makes more sense than anything you've said about FEEL or CTE. Btw, I never brought CTE up in this thread and it's not about it.
It's about FEEL vs. any aiming system. You know what feel is, correct?

And how do you teach the stroke of Efren and Bustamante that comes in from all different angles from where they were originally set up for??
They certainly are NOT conventional with PURE STRAIGHT STROKES!

Nobody should teach their strokes. Efren grew up sleeping under a pool table and didn't go to school. He learned by seeing others and perfected what he does because he was playing practically from birth. He told Mark Wilson he might be even better if he learned proper fundamentals.

There are some styles of players that are better left alone. They far exceed the normal clones of perfect form. If you watched the US Open golf tournament last week you would have seen it with Dustin Johnson. His coach wants to change nothing, yet there could be much to change if based on perfect fundamentals.

He said Lou Figueroa and Pat Johnson were two of the biggest IDIOTS...Some how you must have passed under his radar

I think my comments are pretty reasonable and agree with observations.

Of course you do and so does Lou and PJ which is exactly why Hal said what he did. The three of you are so far off base it's laughable.

I'm not sure why you are so bent out of shape over this stuff. Try some new meds, maybe?

Try some new meds? Wow, that's one of the oldest and moldy phrases ever used when a person has nothing intelligent to say.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Here's what I'm saying when I say "everyone aims by feel:"

I've come to the conclusion that there are no aiming systems that can put you on the exact correct shot line.

A number of systems can put you on the exact correct shot line IF the eyes, body, and stroking arm are on the exact correct shot line. The systems aren't anywhere near as flawed as the person using them. Systems are designed to get the player on the exact correct shot line as consistently as possible.

I tend to think "feel" is a mental override of the system because doubt creeps in due to the visual looking skewed from an improper eye and body position so a compensation takes place, aka FEEL.


I believe this because systems like CTE are discrete, meaning if you follow them exactly to the letter, the object ball can only go in a number of finite directions.

Correct, the directions are finite. ZERO TO 90 DEGREES AND EVERY THING IN BETWEEN. Forget CTE for the sake of this discussion. Let's use contact point aiming as taught by Joe Tucker. Joe can shoot lights out and make you and I look like beginner chumps whether it's in games itself or for purposes of shot accuracy in a potting skills test. He has refined and honed contact point aiming to the nth degree and need NO FEEL or compensation. There is no doubt in his mind after his eyes, body, and arm are locked into position, 100% correct position, to require any fiddling around with additional manipulations of FEEL.

There are several respected physicists who say the exact same thing, and since these people also have expertise in billiards, I think their opinion is worth listening to. On the flip side, I have yet to meet anybody who can explain in regular english how CTE works... not one. So although I'd like there to be a system that puts you on the exact shot line, I do not believe it exists.

Like I said, Joe Tucker could teach it in person or you could just watch him knock ball after ball in as he describes what he sees and does WITHOUT the last second adjustments from feel. The best part is he's in your neck of the woods and not Kentucky. Get off of your dead, lazy, all knowing lard a$$ and find out that it exists.

What I do believe is that the exact correct shot line can only be found through trial and error, which I called "feel."

That has to be one of the most imbecilic statements I've ever seen on a pool forum. TRIAL AND ERROR was what somebody else originally went through starting back over a century ago and leading up to the present in the development of all the aiming systems. Some are better than others and those that are usually have to do with what our eyes and brain can relate to easier. As I said before, it's wasting precious time by reinventing the wheel when it's all been done by others.

To answer your question, you cannot really tell a person how to aim, other than something like "ghost ball plus allow for throw."

Of course you can tell a person how to aim if you teach him what to SEE and how to set the eyes and body to see it. There are different aiming systems that can be taught over time based on the individuals overall development in performance and skill levels.

By your way of thinking I guess you can't teach a person how to use the diamond system to bank or move the CB around the table to various areas either. The only way to do it is spend their lifetime and next 3 reincarnations to figure it all out by trial and error. BRILLIANT DANNY BOY, BRILLIANT! I can see why you weren't voted as the top instructor of the year in years past.

You still haven't answered my original questions about FEEL. Try again with something beside TRIAL AND ERROR.

If no system is used in lieu of feel, wouldn't that be just getting up there and shooting any old way? What is it that all supposed "FEEL" players feel or see?

How can feel be transferred from one player to the next in words for teaching purposes?

It everybody shoots by feel in the end, why is the aiming feel of top pro players so far superior to beginners, league players, or bangers? Is it because they hit 5 million balls and not just a million? Is every non pro player supposed to quit their jobs and forgo all the years of education to spend time at a pool room hitting 5 million balls in the quest for an ever elusive feel that can't be defined or described?

Did you quit your job or do you continue to work? When did you reach pro status from feel alone?

What the hell is FEEL when it comes to a focused visual alignment process?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Really....so you know how I play huh....you are so full of shit....

You know nothing about me and my playing.

I don't do handicap leagues at all, nor do I give spots or take spots.

I only play heads up. So you really don't know shit huh about me.

I despise handicap leagues cause it gives a false sense of playing ability to those that do handicap leagues.

So really you look like a fool in assuming knowing something about someone that you have no clue about.

ROTFLMAO! No Mr.Great Player duckie, YOU'RE the one who is so full of shit that it grows into a mountain of it. Catching YOU in a lie is more fun and easier than catching Hillary Clinton in a lie which is every other sentence than comes out of her big mouth.

Here's a post made by you in 2014 about playing in a HANDICAP LEAGUE where you were getting a 60 ball SPOT to 100 in 14.1. The other player had to get to 100 and you only to 40. You were certainly proud of how you TROUNCED him. LOL!!

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=4733560&highlight=handicap#post4733560

05-16-2014, 08:54 PM
Here is a recent example,

Last 14.1 League night, my match was 40 to 100, me 40. I have seen this person play and they can play.

My nerves made me on edge. My first shot of the game I fouled the CB, which I called on myself and the other player never saw it.

He ran the rack, 14 and I owe 1.

Second rack, played a bad safety, he ran the rack.

Third rack, I realized I was thinking too much about what and how I was gonna do the shot before me. From my practice, I realized I need to shift to just seeing and doing, with no how.

My thought process was more like "Make this ball there, put the CB here" and then just doing it. It is like painting. No thought just putting the CB where I wanted without any thought about doing it. Things just starting flowing.

This is what is meant amount forgetting technique, style, systems. This is playing empty, also known as Mushin......its a zen thing.


Oh, the final score......me 40 him 53. Not a fan of handicaps leagues but this is the only place to get any 14.1 games. I'd rather the game was to 100 each, cause I was catching him and wish I could have seen if I could have.

He wasn't happy either..........another big bump for my handicap is coming after this game. I'm going for the highest in the league.

LIAR, LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE DUCKIE.

So who really looks like and IS the fool now, bro?! :rotflmao1:

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Wow, you put in over 2000 hours of practice a year and were getting a 60 ball spot in straight pool?

Maybe you need to see an instructor.

Those that are making excuse about being able to practice will never be any good.

You will be hot and cold meaning you will never achieve any level of consistency.

I can put my cue down for a month, then pick it up and its like I never put it down for a month.

The same thing occurs with my track riding. I only do it once a month, but I;ve done is so much over a long period of time, its like I never been away from the track.

But then again for about three years straight, I put in over 2000 hours a year.

Those three years laid a solid foundation for my consistency I have today.

I chose to put in those hours and it appears few are willing to commit to doing whatever to achieve a high level of consistency in pool.

Much easier to make excuses......

 

[BeiberLvr]

ROTFLMAO! No Mr.Great Player duckie, YOU'RE the one who is so full of shit that it grows into a mountain of it. Catching YOU in a lie is more fun and easier than catching Hillary Clinton in a lie which is every other sentence than comes out of her big mouth.

Here's a post made by you in 2014 about playing in a HANDICAP LEAGUE where you were getting a 60 ball SPOT to 100 in 14.1. The other player had to get to 100 and you only to 40. You were certainly proud of how you TROUNCED him. LOL!!

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=4733560&highlight=handicap#post4733560

05-16-2014, 08:54 PM
Here is a recent example,

Last 14.1 League night, my match was 40 to 100, me 40. I have seen this person play and they can play.

My nerves made me on edge. My first shot of the game I fouled the CB, which I called on myself and the other player never saw it.

He ran the rack, 14 and I owe 1.

Second rack, played a bad safety, he ran the rack.

Third rack, I realized I was thinking too much about what and how I was gonna do the shot before me. From my practice, I realized I need to shift to just seeing and doing, with no how.

My thought process was more like "Make this ball there, put the CB here" and then just doing it. It is like painting. No thought just putting the CB where I wanted without any thought about doing it. Things just starting flowing.

This is what is meant amount forgetting technique, style, systems. This is playing empty, also known as Mushin......its a zen thing.


Oh, the final score......me 40 him 53. Not a fan of handicaps leagues but this is the only place to get any 14.1 games. I'd rather the game was to 100 each, cause I was catching him and wish I could have seen if I could have.

He wasn't happy either..........another big bump for my handicap is coming after this game. I'm going for the highest in the league.

LIAR, LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE DUCKIE.

So who really looks like and IS the fool now, bro?! :rotflmao1:

Can't believe I'm coming to Duckers defense, but to be fair. Even in that post from 2014, he made it clear he didn't like handicap leagues. And I don't see where he bragged about beating the guy.