If you foul, but your opponent doesn't see it, should you call it on yourself?

Obvious fouls are the easiest for anyone to call and claim they did it because of the 'integrity' thing most players cling to when asked this question...

What about the RULES of the game? If you don't know the rules, HOW can you call a foul on yourself unless your opponent tells you? or you read the rule book(s). So many books... so many ORGS... and then each pool room has its own set of rules.... like; The game of 9 ball doesn't start until the One Ball is hit. Or, a foul on the break doesn't count to be included in the 3-foul rule.

Integrity and pocket billiards in pool rooms across the country? Rules for Gambling and tournament matches are a learning process even for the older players that still don't realize that the rules have changed a lot since
Texas Express came out in the late 80s.

The World Standardized Rules have been around since 1998,and yet, very few players know these rules.

How many pool players file perfect tax returns every year? do you think they know ALL the tax rules?

My answer; "I call fouls on myself." always have, always will. I feel I should, I do not think this has anything to do with "integrity", just playing be the rules.
 
I will always call a foul on myself, even playing against guys or people that I know are low life cheaters and league sand baggers.

Just proves to me that I am one step better than them. Play in a league long enuff and you get to know who they are.
And the only person I need to prove anything to is myself.

Could a spectator call a foul?
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Only once when I am playing. I had a women spectator tell my opponent to mark his pocket when he was down and ready to pull the trigger. Now that can be as different as it is the same. We no longer mark pockets. Captains agree to call the pocket before the first rack is broke.

I have told people to mark their pocket on occasion and when the shot is so obvious, what does it matter if the pocket is marked or not. Both of you know where it is going. I'm not that desperate to win a game.

Now, the time I am talking about, we are playing in a biker bar owned at the time by the Angels. So these guys aren't bikers but thought and acted pretty solid and weren't the friendliest crew that I have run across.

So to me, I don't owe these dicks anything by the end of the night. A women who was watching reminded the guy to mark his pocket.
This time it was just the principle of what happened and it Peed me off a bit.

I called a foul as soon as she told him and he marked. He got down and fired the 8 in. He was all cocky and tried to make me feel that I was in the wrong and said we could play again if it meant that much. By that time I had had enuff and the last thing I wanted to do is hang in that place any longer than I had to and play another.

But yeah, I want to be the one who calls a foul and not a spectator. Depending on who it is, (non female), what mood I'm in ( usually always good) and they could
be sitting on the floor watching there after.
 
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Blue Hog ridr said:
I will always call a foul on myself, even playing against guys or people that I know are low life cheaters and league sand baggers.

Just proves to me that I am one step better than them. Play in a league long enuff and you get to know who they are.
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Good for you, Terry.
I think it's really important to not break your own rules of conduct....
...no matter who you play.
Otherwise a low-life can determine YOUR rules of conduct.

It is NOT okay to cheat a cheater.
 
Every Chris Banks post I have read in the past 2 days is full of some of the most ridiculous comments and outlook on the game of pool I have ever heard.. Clowns like this is the reason billiards in every fashion are suffering.. Nothing has been shown in his posts but a sleazy disregard for ethics, as well as being an honest player no matter the situation he gives. Many have already described the traits in which you seem to be lacking sir, and all I can say is that I will be no longer fueling your idiotic fire with responding further in the future. Good luck to you in your shady play and dealings.
 
It is NOT okay to cheat a cheater.
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Couple of reasons.
You'll just bring yourself down to their level.
And then you're just cheating your own integrity even tho you may believe that you pulled one off an a cheater/bagger.

I usually end up buckling down twice as hard and winning anyway.

Like last night, I let a Scotch opponent break 4 times. Honestly I did. I let him re break once but after the second miscue, I thought that if
he is breaking that bad, he ain't getting nothing in when he does touch the rack. I'm shooting next. He was a little embarrassed but he is a decent player for the most part and I did get to shoot next.
 
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Foul Shot.

The best thing about Snooker is when the player calls a foul shot on themselves.The referee,commentators,camera crew all missed it but the player knows he fluffed the cueball etc and declares it.

If it's just a game down the local hall with your mate for a laugh with nothing at stake but your paying for table time I suppose you'd just have a laugh with your mate and say you seen that foul shot but let it go.
 
Richie,
The rule in the situation I described is not "ball in hand". It is a loss of game during tournament play.
If the game you are playing is just between two gambling players, than that brings up the point I was trying to make in my original reply to the thread regarding "calling a foul on yourself." A player is allowed, and by honor, obligated to bring attention to the fact that a foul has occurred. This is somewhat different to calling a foul on ones self.

The intentional foul rule is rarely brought up in discussion when deciding which rules to play by. So the onus to make the call must be on the opposing player. It is also rare that once the foul is understood it is unaccepted. The situation I earlier described is the only one I can think of which would certainly be declined.

That doesn't mean that if your opponent doesn't see the foul the offender has the freedom to keep quiet about it, no matter what the stakes are. What is the price for integrity?

Chris is right though in stating that we each are the first line of defense against those who are out to hurt or cheat us. We should be watching closely to what's happening on the table. But that does not relieve anyone from doing the right thing and owning up to the fouls we commit. And just because some highly talented players might not take that high road doesn't mean you shouldn't either.

Tom
 
TRWpool said:
Richie,
The rule in the situation I described is not "ball in hand". It is a loss of game during tournament play.
If the game you are playing is just between two gambling players, than that brings up the point I was trying to make in my original reply to the thread regarding "calling a foul on yourself." A player is allowed, and by honor, obligated to bring attention to the fact that a foul has occurred. This is somewhat different to calling a foul on ones self.

The intentional foul rule is rarely brought up in discussion when deciding which rules to play by. So the onus to make the call must be on the opposing player. It is also rare that once the foul is understood it is unaccepted. The situation I earlier described is the only one I can think of which would certainly be declined.

That doesn't mean that if your opponent doesn't see the foul the offender has the freedom to keep quiet about it, no matter what the stakes are. What is the price for integrity?

Chris is right though in stating that we each are the first line of defense against those who are out to hurt or cheat us. We should be watching closely to what's happening on the table. But that does not relieve anyone from doing the right thing and owning up to the fouls we commit. And just because some highly talented players might not take that high road doesn't mean you shouldn't either.

Tom
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Thanks for clearing that up for me TomTom, it is always nice to learn something!
 
ChrisBanks said:
Should I call a foul on my very self?

Artie has an interesting opinion on this, which I will paste here if I can find it again.
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This is the second different thread that I've responded to today regarding ethics, and it's you again....
I'll say the same thing I said before:
Don't count on a group of strangers on a forum, any forum, to guide your life morally or ethically. They don't have to live with the consequences.
Secondly, the golden rule. Would you want your opponenent to call a foul on themselves?
How about this, If your mother, father, grandmother, (someone you admire/respect) saw you commit the foul, would you still pretend as if it didn't happen?
 
TRWpool said:
I'm happy to see we have a lot of very fine people on this forum.
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And......there seems to be a change in people's hearts since this subject was last discussed here. There were a lot more people saying it was up to people to have been paying attention to the table the last time this subject was broached.

Maniac
 
richiebalto said:
Thanks for clearing that up for me TomTom, it is always nice to learn something!
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http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=3909679&postcount=13

Now we has proofs that the folks around DC be smarts. I hpe the rest of you isn't one pissed off about it.

there is a tale about a well known player of days gone by- Cornbread?- who was in a sure trap and pushed all the balls to his hole, by hand, and declared, 'I owe one'!

cant be having that. unsportsmanlike offenses require stiffer penalties than general fouls.
 
rockroll60 said:
But the story line of 'The Sting'
one of my favorite fun type movies bye the way
used that premise to critical acclaim.

That Lonigan he deserved it.. that scoundrel :p
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I enjoyed the movie, Rock...some of my favorite actors.

But I most enjoyed the music....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WxfjWnuEno

Scott Joplin, unlike the European composers who had royal patronage,
played in a Naw'lins cat house because of his social and economic situation.
But he still came up with beautiful music and even wrote an opera.

..disclaimer
This is called an 'aside' since it's leaving the main theme of the thread,
briefly.......is this cheating?...:o
 
dnixon said:
how much are we playing for?????? lol
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There ya go. It's EASY to be noble when playing in a league or for a few bucks. In a tournament, I even saw Archer WARN an opponent that he was about to shoot a ball out of sequence. Doing so didn't cost him the match but could have.

BUT...maximum, going home early would have cost him a couple of grand.

Now, I just wonder how many of the same people who swear they would call a foul on themselves would do so IF....they were road players trying to make enogh money for FOOD and to not have to sleep in their cars...and to send some money home to their wife and kids....would call a foul on themselves playing an obnoxious JERK for $10k in a Hill/Hill match.

EVERYBODY is a saint sitting in their warm homes posting opinions on an internet site.

When you're playing for size large CASH without a referee...it is the opponent's responsibility to police their own matches.

I KNOW there are those who would call the foul no matter what...and HEY...good for you....both of you. (-:

But IMHO it is a facts and circumstances matter and I wouldn't sit in judgment of anyone whose NEED for the money led them to conclude that it was the opponent's RESPONSIBILITY to have called the foul and his tough luck if he didn't.

Again, in a refereed match, I'm not even sure the RULES would permit a self-called foul. In the General Rules 1.10..."if a player feels that the referee has made an error in judgment, he may ask the referee to reconsider his call OR LACK OF CALL..."

And there could be situations where a foul could be an ADVANTAGE for the player calling one on himself. Now what???????????? (-:

EagleMan
 
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