I'm Gonna Catch Heat For This...

worriedbeef said:
just to be clear i brought up allen's event as an example of the pool industry trying to aim a bit higher now after the IPT gave us a taster. also just so you know, i think allen does intend it to be a tour - he spoke about it in an interview with onthebreak, but like he said, we'll see.
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I'm working w/ Allen on parts of this, I'm aware. It's totally different from what I'm describing. Allen plans to fund these tournaments not unlike poker tournaments are self-funded. You don't have Budweiser beer or outside sponsors INVESTING or SPONSORING a larger tour.... I.E. PGA TOUR

So, in essence, the IPT has eliminated 1 of the 2 possible ways big tournaments can happen.

EDIT: That's not to say that after Allen IS successful, someone wouldn't come in from the outside to sponsor. Thank God for Allen, is all I have to say.
 
In all seriousness though....do you think supporting a guy like Trudeau is a good thing for pool? Most of the general public is quite aware of the criminal history of this guy ---- and while a few people cashed some checks, does having him at any kind of leadership helm come out looking good for the billiard industry as whole?

JAM said: "Champion pool players' eyes look on heights beyond yours and my gaze. It is the look of a spirit that can soar, an air of freedom unconquerable, and as such, it is their right to play pool anywhere they feel like it."

- That is very poetic, but what does it mean? Isn't it anyone's right to play pool anywhere they feel like it? I'm not being a smart alleck...just saying.

JAM said: While champion-caliber players are scrambling around the world, scraping for crumbs, they continue on and try to be all that they can be

- Believe me. I give props to any player trying to make a full time living at the game. It is basically the "impossible dream" (no pun intended...ok...a little bit intended, but I'm a McCready fan so don't get huffy).

Jam said: the ultimate goal being that precious almighty win. Without them, there would be no sport. Give them the proper dues they deserve instead of ridiculing them.

- It did come across as ridicule, but I love pool and I'm inspired by championship players (like Keith). But it is..what it is. There are some unsavory truths about this sport - why talk as if they don't exist. Every single pool player is NOT (ok most aren't) a choir boy (or girl). Part of the "draw" of pool is the hustle, the grind, the gamble. Pool without gambling (and the unfortunate things that can come with it) is like peanut butter without jelly. I do think you have it *slightly* backwards. Logically, without the sport itself, there would be no championship players...right? I always give them the proper dues they deserve. I lose money to them...LOL...I've taken lessons from several pros, like Max Eberle and Jimmy Reid - happily fattening their bank accounts a little bit. The knowledge I received in return was definitely worth more than what I paid and I happily admit that.

Not trying to argue - just discuss.
 
JAM said:
Well, here I am! Come and get me.



Rubbish and hogwash. The IPT didn't decimate the industry.

Au contraire, it's the people who ridicule pool players as if they're freaks of nature, criticizing them because they made a choice in life to play professional pool.

What created the demise of pool as a sport is the nits on the rail who got nothing better to do than spew their nasty "words of wisdom." Pool players have rights, too. Without them, this pool world would be a little dull, wouldn't you think?

Kevin Trudeau tried to elevate pool, and he ain't finished yet, fortunately for those pool players who do want to play professional pool. Today, somebody has to win, place, or show to make a profit in pool competitions. If somebody out there is willing to invest tens of millions of dollars to give pool players a decent platform to compete, then I applaud the effort.

Decade after decade after decade, professional pool has sunk deeper into the abyss of a fruitless wilderness. Yet, pool players continued to give it their all, following their dream to be the best that they can be. I ain't seen anyone invest MILLIONS of dollars into pool in my lifetime, until Kevin Trudeau came to the scene. If you don't like the IPT or Kevin Trudeau, that is your right, but don't ridicule the pool players who want to play in first-class venues and be treated like the professionals that they are.

JAM
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I want to respond, but I honestly don't know what you're talking about, or where your tangent is going. Who attacked pool players; me? I support pool and pool players.

Want to stand up for someone who lies to your face, Keith's face and caused a huge scandal (which I feel was ALL fraudulent) non-stop because you cashed his check that sent you on a trip? By you looking in the other direction, you're supporting the corruption of the sport you're standing up for. Very hypocritical. Argue that.

EDIT: Argue that NICELY.
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
I want to respond, but I honestly don't know what you're talking about, or where your tangent is going. Who attacked pool players; me? I support pool and pool players.

Want to stand up for someone who lies to your face, Keith's face and caused a huge scandal (which I feel was ALL fraudulent) non-stop because you cashed his check that sent you on a trip? By you looking in the other direction, you're supporting the corruption of the sport you're standing up for. Very hypocritical. Argue that.

EDIT: Argue that NICELY.
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This is getting good. Good honest discussion. No personal attacks. Just heated but respectful debate. AZ rocks! I can't wait to read Jam's point of view. Don't worry...JAM will have something for you buddy. She LOVES to debate and will defend her point until the end (which I respect - but like others don't necessarily always agree with).

.....I still didn't like being called a nit though Jam. :)
 
Matt_24 said:
This is getting good. Good honest discussion. No personal attacks. Just heated but respectful debate. AZ rocks! I can't wait to read Jam's point of view. Don't worry...JAM will have something for you buddy. She LOVES to debate and will defend her point until the end (which I respect - but like others don't necessarily always agree with).

.....I still didn't like being called a nit though Jam. :)
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I really like JAM, I know some others do not. I know she will probably blast me before reading this, however. I had to say nicely because she does become overly "passionate" in her responses.

I'll continue to debate as long as it's friendly.
 
I like JAM too. Yes, she does get very passionate - but it is understandable. The love of her life grinds it out in the pool world and I imagine it can be incredibly frustrating at times.

Legends in other sports sit back and count their millions. Pool players like Keith play world class pool for years - and unfortunately don't have the same returns. Of course, I'm sure the experiences and memories themselves are worth their weight in gold - but don't pay the bills.

I know JAM wants what is best for professional pool and the players, so she always has my respect. I never doubt her sincerity and appreciate her passion.
 
JAM said:
Rubbish and hogwash. The IPT didn't decimate the industry.

Au contraire, it's the people who ridicule pool players as if they're freaks of nature, criticizing them because they made a choice in life to play professional pool.

What created the demise of pool as a sport is the nits on the rail who got nothing better to do than spew their nasty "words of wisdom."
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I'm glad you first provided the description of what you were about to write.

Dave
 
Matt_24 said:
I like JAM too. Yes, she does get very passionate - but it is understandable. The love of her life grinds it out in the pool world and I imagine it can be incredibly frustrating at times.

Legends in other sports sit back and count their millions. Pool players like Keith play world class pool for years - and unfortunately don't have the same returns. Of course, I'm sure the experiences and memories themselves are worth their weight in gold - but don't pay the bills.

I know JAM wants what is best for professional pool and the players, so she always has my respect. I never doubt her sincerity and appreciate her passion.
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Totally agree.

If you leave emotion out of the debate, the bulleted-items are clear:

- KT is a convicted felon

- IPT lied about every thing I said in my first post, intentionally... which equals "fraud" in my book. No one has taken them to court on this, mainly because there's nothing to win.

- Given my point above, how can you support an organization who constantly lies, misrepresents facts, and sours the industry just because you cashed their check? If you want pros to make the money they so deserve, is the IPT really the best course for the sport as a whole?

From my experience in business, it's better to have no business than business riddled with lies and fraud.

For the life of me, I couldn't think of a comeback to that if I was JAM... although I know she will.
 
Originally Posted by Matt_24
How could you accept dirty money like that? Ooopss...we're talking about pool players. Nevermind.

(Sorry, couldn't resist).

The above comment is from a genuine scum bag. We all work hard to promote our sport and to try and bring pool into the mainstream. but there is always someone like Matt_24 to try and sling mud and maintain a long ago low image of pool and its players. You should be ashamed of yourself Matt. You should keep these kinds of opinions to yourself.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I think you make valid points; however, the reason why people can't stand him is because of the lack of integrity and the constant lying. If he would have said at the beginning of the Reno event, "Guys, I may not be able to pay, and here's why, but please play anyway.." most of them would have been OK with that.

As soon as you lie and misrepresent the truth, intentionally, you instantly erase everything that was done right.

Here are the stone cold facts you may not be aware of:

1) Deno told me when I arrived at Reno that the IPT had "an unlimited budget." When my partner and I asked him their budget for operations and marketing later in the week, his response was "we don't have a budget... that's not how Kevin operates" (insinuating he's "mac-money")
*LIE*

2) The IPT was insolvent during the IPT event, which is why they didn't pay, obviously. So, they weren't "loaded" as Deno mentioned.
*LIE*

3) Kevin concocted the Ho merger. He announced a merger/acquisition w/ Ho Interactive and presented it as being complete when there was no deal in place. No one on planet earth ever, ever, ever, ever, ever announces a merger and acquisition publicly before it's completed. Doing so can ruin a deal - even if it were to happen. Because I assume KT knows this, he did so as the foundation of his cover-up of not paying. The internet gambling law was, based on my memory, passed after the IPT; therefore, it shouldn't have had a bearing on whether or not the payouts were made. Kevin Trudeau told me on the phone after the event not to worry, because Ho was still going to purchase the IPT, just at a reduced amount and that the players would be paid by the end of October.
*LIE*

4) Kevin announced at Reno that he was proud to announce the prize fund would be increased from $2M to $3M due to the Ho merger - which was certainly not completed (and may have never been). He knowingly did this while the IPT as a company did not have the funds to pay (since they didn't).
*LIE*

4b) Deno told me after Reno the players weren't paid due to "tax reasons" and "tax liability"
*LIE*

5) Deno told me that the London event was canceled due to them not finalizing the venue contract or logistics w/ the table shipments? Maybe both. Either way, we all know now that was canceled because they knew they couldn't get passed Reno.
*LIE*

6) I can't tell you how many times I was told, "We sent the check last week--- you didn't receive it??"
*LIE*

I can go on and on, but I'm busy here at work. I'd LOOOVE to get into a debate with any living human being on the face of the earth who wants to say the IPT was good for pool and the players. ANY LIVING HUMAN BEING. Just because someone got a check, does not mean the IPT didn't decimate the industry.
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Thanks for putting things in perspective and keeping it real. A little too much hero worship for a sleaze ball for me.
 
Dawgie said:
Originally Posted by Matt_24
How could you accept dirty money like that? Ooopss...we're talking about pool players. Nevermind.

(Sorry, couldn't resist).

The above comment is from a genuine scum bag. We all work hard to promote our sport and to try and bring pool into the mainstream. but there is always someone like Matt_24 to try and sling mud and maintain a long ago low image of pool and its players. You should be ashamed of yourself Matt. You should keep these kinds of opinions to yourself.
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This was said in jest - as I said to JAM before. If it was taken as anything more than that I apologize. I can see now how it came across as a crappy thing to say, but that wasn't the original intent. Thank you for resorting to name calling so quickly though. Very impressive.
 
no heat, we see it about the same

From when things first went to pieces I said I thought that the pool players were just window dressing with no intention to harm them, something I had speculated on from the conception of the IPT. Trudeau was in it for a buck, major bucks in fact. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with cutting your losses at some point. However, KT claimed he was personally guaranteeing two years funding which caused players to make life changing decisions based on two years of guaranteed decent earnings if they played to their potential and then of course left them holding the bag.

Once things went to hell KT just went into his usual little do-se-do with the players getting the gooey end of things.

One thing I strongly believe is that KT is living on constant rollover. I think his real wealth is almost zilch and his whole house of cards comes tumbling down in a hurry without constant large injections of cash. That is why he has no option but to twist the governments tail flying way to close to the wind with many of his endeavors and that is why he has had to nickel and dime the IPT players and now has to nickel and dime the people who played in the qualifiers. I never met a con man who didn't claim to be fantastically wealthy while he was trying to talk me into going into a penny-ante deal with him.

Pool players were conned but it was by one of the best flim-flam men in the business. The sad thing is when and if he waves dollars at them again or someone just like him does, they will rush in again. Players aren't really that stupid, they are that desperate to be able to make a living playing pool.

Hu




Fatboy said:
First off let me me 100% CLEAR I have no love, like, personal interest or anything for KT, he is a bad dishonest guy like it says in the other thread. I never spoke to him or have met him.

I have worked in and known many people in his kind of biz since 93,I'm still in marketing same gig since 96, i'm legit, i would have got popped years ago, you cant run a bad shop for that long and not get caught but thats me not him. KT's are not legit-thats why he awalys has something new, he will sell anything for money, remember the Mega-Memorie? It was over 10 years ago KT was selling that, he has been going at it for along time, there are good businesses that have stole from him his marketing tecniques to sell legit products. I'm glad they stole from him. He is reguarded as a marketing prodogity and genious (SP?) in the marketing biz.

But....Heres where I'm gonna catch some heat.

KT dosent have a concience...that had to be said first.

Here it is:

KT dosent do any business that isnt successful. If it fails he bails. I believe that he believed the pool tour was going to work, When he lost his ass and advertizers which are the revinue stream he bailed,




He had 2 jobs to organize the whole thing 1. Get Players 2. Sell enough advertizing to make it work.

1. He got the players by dangling the golden carrot, easy enough, he like most sales men B.S. and said "I'm a player too" but it didnt hurt anyone.(saying he is a player). Like a car calesman saying he drives what he is selling, so what.

2. He needed $$$ to make it run, he had a budget when he started(my assumption) it like any good businessman, good in the sence that he is skilled in business, not moraly good. When online gaming collapsed that was the death blow, Chalk-Off and Sardo cant support what KT wanted to do....something big, he needed online gaming like NASCAR needs Budweiser. In the UK 888.com and other online gaming companys are the stake horses in big venues, big $$$ snooker. So after he blew his own $$$ he was done, greanted at the expence of the players. But the players had the same intentions as KT they didnt get in stroke to go play for free, they came to win like KT.


Having said that I believe even though KT is a POS I really believed he wanted this to work but would only fire only so many barrels until he was done and couldnt find a backer so he pulled up. Is it right? yes in the business world it is, we pull out of games if were losing(granted we pay the last set) . To keep it in pool terms he fired an air barrel on the last set which is never acceptable to put it lightly.


However I truely believe he started the whole thing with good intentions because the thought he could make a pile of $$$ and make it big, it has the same demographic as poker whitch was blowing up at that time on TV, pool dosent have a Don king(Bad guy too) but at least Don makes events come off and boxers $$$. So pool was a easy desperate sport to make big cheaply, hell darts would cost more to take over. So KT saw a cheap way to take something big and it failed. Thus he bailed out. In his defence and I dont know all the details about what is owed to who, whats wrong with closing up shop-I lost a business once that forced me to bankruptcy. The people I didnt pay hated me but I had no choice. So I understand his decision. There isnt a pool players union to guarantee anything.

I hate the fact he whored out our community of the most under paid professionals of any sport, game in the world. I know what it takes to become a pro in this game a life long commitment, in most cases.

I hate the fact it didnt work.

It wasnt 100% KT's fault it failed. (To the best of my knowlege, why would he cause it to fail unless he stole alot of $$$)

Look at his other things he is a successful person and if he didnt believe his pool tour wasnt going to be successful he wouldnt have spent a dime on it or wasted his time. To the best of my knowlege its not like he rat holed alot of $$$ and left town. If he did do that then yeah lets find him and hang him. If it was a business failure then at least he gave it a shot. I heard he owes people $$$, I did to when I went down and didnt pay, I have been owed $$$ and didnt collect-it sucks but again its a cold world out and nothing is for sure...


Please understand i'm not defending him, but its getting old hearing everyone act like they are a victim of fraud on this mess, even if everyone is, move on. I have been beat so bad because I matched up wrong it was rediclous and lost more than I should have(I also learned how to match up next time, i didnt give up playing or claim who beat me ruined my life and i'm never gonna play again-Tony Watson comes to mind in Reno in the late 80's, wow I got robbed-I never had a shot litterly, but thats another story). KT is a POS no doubt but its over-move on, I just dont play Tony anymore. I just outlined one reason why it could have ended, perhaps i'm 100% wrong but we need to move on weather i'm right or wrong. I'm a businessman, never had a job so this looks clear to me, it might not to people who arnt in business-not a knock just 2 different perspectives.


One more thing if KT wanted to rob a sport why would he pick pool? he would go where there is some big $$ he could scam.


If I ever started something like KY did and I'm not implying I am but if I did I would have a budget to make sure that the first 3 or 4 events everyone got paid. The $$ would be visable in an escrow account, if after that it didnt work I'd leave too but I wouldnt leave anyone hanging on waiting to get paid. I dont operate like that, that was KT problem he fired an air barrel hoping to collect $$$. He made promises before he collected and got caught. POS end of story
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SpiderWebComm said:
I was referring to a pool angel-investor / savior / institutional investor coming in and funding a big tour. Not Allen's tournament--- that's self-funded by large entrance fees and qualifiers. That's one tournament, not a tour.

Prior to the IPT, it was possible to get an individual or company to come in and fund something big (as KT tried). Now, it's what you would call "damaged goods" for years to come. You'll never see anyone come in and try to pull an "IPT" for a long time.
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absoluly 100% wrong, if i could figure out a way to make $$ by doing something like KTdid, i would do, infact the fact he scewed up is good for the future because now the next heavy hitter can and most likely will learn from KT's mistakes, I'd love to play KT some hight bank roll takes little bankroll, i'm a good business man and one bad experience by a marketer aint cancer on the industry, dont give him that much credit. I understand your point but respectfully i 100% disagree with you.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Worried Beef, it's called intrinsic value.

Joe Rogan made a comment about how the UFC was funded through those casino brothers. Imagine if KT decided to fund the UFC and ruined it like he ruined the IPT, would those casino brothers come in after the fact and try to make a go of it following a national scandal? Answer is no.

That's why, long-term, there's damage.
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the casion brothers bought UFC because it was in the toilet like pool is now, i own a radio show and get media credentials to UFC, I know Dana White(the president of UFC and the man who turned it around), alot of the fighters, cut men, and the business side of it I sell them air time for their adverts on my show, etc. The Friattas (SP?) are more likely to buy the ITP now than before they coud bail KT out, those guyes own everything and buy businesses that are cheap because of poor managment etc. thats good value, like seeing a free card in poker, or popping the 9 on the break. Your logic is backwards, bail outs are the best gig's to buy, hell who knows they might buy it now because its a bargan and they have a venue for a DCC thing etc.
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
I was referring to a pool angel-investor / savior / institutional investor coming in and funding a big tour. Not Allen's tournament--- that's self-funded by large entrance fees and qualifiers. That's one tournament, not a tour.

Prior to the IPT, it was possible to get an individual or company to come in and fund something big (as KT tried). Now, it's what you would call "damaged goods" for years to come. You'll never see anyone come in and try to pull an "IPT" for a long time.
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A very logical post, Spider Fella.

Of course, KT didn't, by any means, decimate the industry, and I will always believe he wanted the IPT venture to succeed, which might have made him pool's savior. He had a vision, one that never came to fruition.

Unfortunately, the IPT example has dispelled the myth that heavy investment in the productions of pool events is all it takes to make pro pool an easy sell, and while calling pool "damaged goods" is going way too far, the suggestion that others may be scared away from heavy investment is reasonable. Let's hope it doesn't turn out that way.
 
Matt_24 said:
Wow...I was just joking JAM.
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Actually you were correct with what you said. It is easy for those that received their money or those who follow those who received their money to sit on the side line and praise or even just say nice things about another f___ up situation. Kinda like the fat guy who has a full stomach picking his teeth after a great meal, while he is looking out the window at others hoping to find something to eat, I mean I am certain that his concern lyes with those still hungry.

It is just like some of the posts in this thread, why care what happens if it happens to someone else. This is the problem, and this is why pool players in general will never have any unity. Being self centered is the real under lying issue, along with greed and both these things seem to greatly influence professional pool. Until the players can get past these problems, and become a unified force, people will continue to get duped by the KT's of this country, it has been going on since the late 1970's and there is no end in sight.

I have to agree with most of what Fatboy said, and I totally think that everyone was seduced by greed including KT, however, it all comes down to one thing and that is if it looks to good to be true, it most likely is.
 
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Some amazing posts. Lots of opinions. I have one.

Fatboy;

I believe you are off base. The comparison to yourself, hopefully, isn't accurate. No smart business person would start a business thinking they were going to make a bunch of money without having a good business model and funding. KT had neither. I'm sure you wouldn't start a business until you knew you could pay the bills for long enough for the business to be a success. The IPT was represented to be funded/guaranteed, for at least couple of seasons at the beginning out of KT's pocket. It was a lie. He was banking on other money coming in from other sources.

While you tried to make a business go, and failed, KT promoted his Natural Cures through the IPT and undoubtedly made money on that end. How much did he loose? Because he probably structured the IPT correctly, he is a smart guy, all losses were write-offs though his other scams...mmmm endeavors.

More importantly, he had the money to do what he promised. Had you made promises in your failed business and you had the money, would you have lived up to your promises? Especially when you befriended a whole industry? I hope that you would, but then only time will tell if a person keeps their promises.

JAM;

I see it different than you. I believe the pool/billiards industry has been greatly harmed by KT/IPT. Yes, some players got big paydays and the events looked nice. Thats what makes scams work. Give one hungry person a steak and it becomes bait for everyone else. Hunger/Greed is the target of cons. The damage however is not to the individual players as much as the industry. I disagree again with Fatboy on this. After not paying your help, the forum and various other vendors, you become unwelcome. And its usually not the guy that promoted it, KT, it becomes the concept that was promoted. I have scheduled/promoted/planned a number of large events and hotels/convention centers. Believe me, when you mention a pool event, everyone will remember vendors not being paid for that big event in Las Vegas or Reno or wherever. Pool tournaments will, and are, viewed as financial risks, which many forums will not take. Slowly but surely some promoters have been trying to overcome it, Dragon Promotions, Allen Hopkins, WPBA etc..

Some players have enjoyed large payouts and great events, but the industry has suffered. Many of my friends, players, also lost in the IPT. Jobs, money and opportunities.
 
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