In What Era
- Thread starter Johnnyt
- Start date
40's-70's IMHO. 14-1 was the game of the day, which is a tougher game to be at the top at, compared to 9 ball. There are some top level pros out there now that can run racks of 9 ball, but may or may not be able to run 150 and out in Straight on a consistant basis. Completely different animal. Also, back in the day they played on tight pocket 5'x10' tables.
Not knockin' any of the current pro's, there are some GREAT ones, to be sure, but if my mentor Willie, and his peers like Greenleaf, Caras, Crane, etc. were all still alive, and still in their prime, I believe they could kick ANY current pro's ass, MOST of the time, no matter WHAT game they played.
My 2 cents.
Not knockin' any of the current pro's, there are some GREAT ones, to be sure, but if my mentor Willie, and his peers like Greenleaf, Caras, Crane, etc. were all still alive, and still in their prime, I believe they could kick ANY current pro's ass, MOST of the time, no matter WHAT game they played.
My 2 cents.
14oneman said:
Hogwash.. There have been quite a few instances of modern day pros running 100+ in tournament competition. When there is only ONE (IF that) 14.1 tourney per year, and in general, noone plays the game. Modern pros have sometimes put up a hundred balls in competition after practicing with a knowledgable player for A WEEK. I can only imagine how much better they would be if it was the main game nowadays.
And think Mosconi and Greenleaf would run over modern 9 ball pros if you want.... We have become so accustomed to seeing pros put a 4 pack down in a finals match, that we barely notice. We only notice when they do 5+. I'm not sure where you are getting your info that Mosconi and Greenleaf had the "power break + squat Whitey in the middle of the table) going for them. Because if they don't, they will get run over by modern pros. There's lots of shortstops who never miss that can't beat Archer, Reyes, Corey, etc.
I don't see why people can't be content with saying that these players come from different backgrounds, therefore have different skillsets. Mosconi, Greenleaf, Caras, etc, excelled at close in position shots and reading a rack, as well as long power shots. So what if they played on shag carpet? Do you automatically assume they could control their stroke after 5 minutes on Simonis cloth?
Russ
Now, ignoring the ignorant (BLAH BLAH REY REY! 14.1 players rooled and 9 ball players drooled!) last post.. I will give my opinion...
I think the most superpro level players were in the Depression era. It was simply a function of pressure and survival. A LOT of people were out of work, and had to find a way to make money. They HAD to make that 8 ball in the corner, or they might not eat for another day.
That kind of pressure leads to championship play, if you can deal with it. I think in all honesty, not for the reason of the main game being 14.1, but out of necessity, there were a lot more quality players in that period. A lot more who totally knew the game inside out. Because they HAD to.
A personal example: I used to be really bad with money, and would blow most of my money within a week of payday. (Military pay twice monthly) I would have maybe 5 or 10 bucks left, and I would go find a little bar table tourney to play in. To this day, I believe I advanced much quicker than normal, because I put myself in the situation a lot where I just HAD to make a ball, or I was broke for a week. It was a cycle. I had to win to avoid being broke, and when I won, I felt so good that I withstood the pressure, that I played even better.
Russ
I think the most superpro level players were in the Depression era. It was simply a function of pressure and survival. A LOT of people were out of work, and had to find a way to make money. They HAD to make that 8 ball in the corner, or they might not eat for another day.
That kind of pressure leads to championship play, if you can deal with it. I think in all honesty, not for the reason of the main game being 14.1, but out of necessity, there were a lot more quality players in that period. A lot more who totally knew the game inside out. Because they HAD to.
A personal example: I used to be really bad with money, and would blow most of my money within a week of payday. (Military pay twice monthly) I would have maybe 5 or 10 bucks left, and I would go find a little bar table tourney to play in. To this day, I believe I advanced much quicker than normal, because I put myself in the situation a lot where I just HAD to make a ball, or I was broke for a week. It was a cycle. I had to win to avoid being broke, and when I won, I felt so good that I withstood the pressure, that I played even better.
Russ
Hogwash..
I like a clean Hog myself
My guess and George Fels probably has allot of knowlege in this area, but the seasoning of the players from that era and the constant high stakes gambling, and the money that was in the rooms during those years makes me think the action across the board was tougher, the guys were seasoned by "decades" of gambling. These guys lived their whole lives taking care of business at the table, whereas nowadays the nut and the knock are part of the pool room scene and its extremely difficult to stay out there and make a living (Efrens a good example of what years of gambling have created). I remember that article on the black player from the East Coast, they called him the Genie (you should find and read the article on him, I think Billiards Digest did the article). I never heard of him but Greenleaf didn't like matching up with this guy, this was the guy that Cisero Murphy grew up watching. There were so many that kept to their backyard, roadies had it tough when they showed up. The overall quality of the players on the top end was special because of the times they lived in. My vote would be the earlier men. Many of them were exceptionally classy individuals because the game was their life, NO doubt about it. There were also allot more rooms back then.
I like a clean Hog myself
My guess and George Fels probably has allot of knowlege in this area, but the seasoning of the players from that era and the constant high stakes gambling, and the money that was in the rooms during those years makes me think the action across the board was tougher, the guys were seasoned by "decades" of gambling. These guys lived their whole lives taking care of business at the table, whereas nowadays the nut and the knock are part of the pool room scene and its extremely difficult to stay out there and make a living (Efrens a good example of what years of gambling have created). I remember that article on the black player from the East Coast, they called him the Genie (you should find and read the article on him, I think Billiards Digest did the article). I never heard of him but Greenleaf didn't like matching up with this guy, this was the guy that Cisero Murphy grew up watching. There were so many that kept to their backyard, roadies had it tough when they showed up. The overall quality of the players on the top end was special because of the times they lived in. My vote would be the earlier men. Many of them were exceptionally classy individuals because the game was their life, NO doubt about it. There were also allot more rooms back then.
If you look to the record book, from 1940-1970, 30 years, there were 9 guys who held the world championship title, and another 3 who were runners up only (never won). So in a 30 year span there were a total of 12 guys who were either the world champion or the runner up for the title.
From 71 to present, Im not going to bother counting, because there are so many different players who have held the title, and or been the runner up. (in the 20-30+ range without actually counting).
Now, the original question was what era had the MOST top pros.... and that would be now. There are so many guys playing at a top speed, its a crapshoot as to who will advance in the tournaments and win. There is not the domination there used to be where a guy would have 19 championships in 30 years like Mosconi did. There simply wasnt the number of top level competitors in those days playing tournament pool. Comparing Mosconi or Crane to the players today is like comparing apples and oranges, 2 different games played on 2 different sets of equipment. There cant be an accurate comparison made.
Chuck
From 71 to present, Im not going to bother counting, because there are so many different players who have held the title, and or been the runner up. (in the 20-30+ range without actually counting).
Now, the original question was what era had the MOST top pros.... and that would be now. There are so many guys playing at a top speed, its a crapshoot as to who will advance in the tournaments and win. There is not the domination there used to be where a guy would have 19 championships in 30 years like Mosconi did. There simply wasnt the number of top level competitors in those days playing tournament pool. Comparing Mosconi or Crane to the players today is like comparing apples and oranges, 2 different games played on 2 different sets of equipment. There cant be an accurate comparison made.
Chuck
Today I feel you can make a name for yourself playing more than 1 game. Back in the day of 14.1 a few stellar players held court for a lifetime! I feel the player strength is deeper than ever with SO many countries being heard from. Some say now is a bad time to be a billiards fan, but i say NO WAY! with the SBE, DCC, US OPENS, IPT, AZ Billiards, The net, Etc. now is a great time to be a pool fan. All in all, I do wish I was alive when Mosconi and the boys were kickin tail! but I wouldn't trade it for a seat to watch what may happen in the next few years.
Gerry
Gerry
Who Was Better? Then, Or Now?:
Except from my upcoming book, The GosPool:
"Players of my era would destroy players of today. Bugs, Ronnie Allen, Jersey Red, Artie Bodendorfer, Boston Shorty, Eddie Taylor, Cincinnati Clem Metz, etc., were vicious killers who would shark, cheat, psyche, and even tush-hog their opponents in order to win. Now consider this. Players of the 30s and 40s would probably destroy the players of my era! Marcel Camp, Gene Skinner, The Eufala Kid, John "Rags" Fitzpatrick, Johnny "Irish" Lineen, New York Fats, Hubert Cokes, Alton "Baby-Face" Whitlow, Tommy the Greek, James Evans, Isadore"Pony" Rosen, et al., played even harder than the Ronnie Allen-era boys. The economic conditions necessary to develop players of that determination and ferocity are no longer present. Depression-era players were hungry wolves, whose level of concentration was nail-bending. Economics of the 50s, 60s and early 70s, while they didn't rival the Depression years, were nonetheless hard times. When I was coming up, a good bite from a fellow pool player was a buck ($1) or a deuce ($2). We missed many meals and some nights had to carry the banner, and wound up in the bus station or an all-night movie. City buses were the standard mode of transportation. Only a few players had cars. If you had as much as three barrels to play someone with, you were a fortunate man. We didn't care if we had a "good" game or not. Who should beat who, was not a major concern. Arbitrary skill handicapping went out the window. Our real concern was that our opponent had money that he was willing to lose. A really "good" game was when you had ten dollars and your opponent had a hundred."
the Beard
Bank on, brother!
Except from my upcoming book, The GosPool:
"Players of my era would destroy players of today. Bugs, Ronnie Allen, Jersey Red, Artie Bodendorfer, Boston Shorty, Eddie Taylor, Cincinnati Clem Metz, etc., were vicious killers who would shark, cheat, psyche, and even tush-hog their opponents in order to win. Now consider this. Players of the 30s and 40s would probably destroy the players of my era! Marcel Camp, Gene Skinner, The Eufala Kid, John "Rags" Fitzpatrick, Johnny "Irish" Lineen, New York Fats, Hubert Cokes, Alton "Baby-Face" Whitlow, Tommy the Greek, James Evans, Isadore"Pony" Rosen, et al., played even harder than the Ronnie Allen-era boys. The economic conditions necessary to develop players of that determination and ferocity are no longer present. Depression-era players were hungry wolves, whose level of concentration was nail-bending. Economics of the 50s, 60s and early 70s, while they didn't rival the Depression years, were nonetheless hard times. When I was coming up, a good bite from a fellow pool player was a buck ($1) or a deuce ($2). We missed many meals and some nights had to carry the banner, and wound up in the bus station or an all-night movie. City buses were the standard mode of transportation. Only a few players had cars. If you had as much as three barrels to play someone with, you were a fortunate man. We didn't care if we had a "good" game or not. Who should beat who, was not a major concern. Arbitrary skill handicapping went out the window. Our real concern was that our opponent had money that he was willing to lose. A really "good" game was when you had ten dollars and your opponent had a hundred."
the Beard
Bank on, brother!
Depression-era players were hungry wolves, whose level of concentration was nail-bending.
Freddy, this is a very telling line of the atmosphere of the older days. Did you ever get to see the Genie play or even hear about his match ups ?
Freddy, this is a very telling line of the atmosphere of the older days. Did you ever get to see the Genie play or even hear about his match ups ?
Well, I'm not quite old enough to have seen Greenleaf play, but I heard all about his prowess first hand by Willie Mosconi, who was a dear friend, and certainly my biggest mentor. It seems Ralph would have given anybody a hard game. As for Willie, well we all know he never played tournament 9 ball, but I personally witnessed him break and run 11 straight racks of 9 ball in exhibition. This was in 1969, when Willie was around 56 years old! So, no one is going to convince me that in his PRIME, that he couldn't keep up with any of today's pros. The same holds true for alot of the players of that era.
Yes, I agree there are PLENTY of pros today that can and do have high runs in 14.1, but they are not the norm.
Not that they should be. Different era, different game. I just feel that era was far harder to be competetive in, in a large part, due to the format and the game played.
Yes, I agree there are PLENTY of pros today that can and do have high runs in 14.1, but they are not the norm.
Not that they should be. Different era, different game. I just feel that era was far harder to be competetive in, in a large part, due to the format and the game played.
soljaime said:I would love to see video of Mosconi running 11 straight racks of 9 ball! Actually, I would love to see video of anybody running 11 racks of 9 ball
CJ has the balance of Earls 11 pack on Nick Mannino at the inagural PCA event in April of 96. For payoff requirements from the insurance company it was required for it to be in video format.
I think maybe you are referring to James Evans? He was the legendary black player who was featured a few years ago in BD -- "A Champion Denied". He was just one of many great players of color who were not allowed to compete in tournaments due to segregation hang-ups, until Cisero Murphy finally broke the color barrier (shortly after Jackie Robinson did for MLB) in about 1966.Island Drive said:
To put my 2 cents in, there had to have been a whole raft of outstanding hustler players during the 20's and 30's because pool (and billiards) where absolutely huge then -- way more poolrooms and poolplayers that at any other time in US history. We know about some of them -- like Greenleaf of course. Less about others, like Emmit Blankenship (banned from competition because of -- uh -- something or other. Even less about the hundreds of hustlers who plied their craft.
That said, today's players have the advantage of the evolution of knowledge and published instructional materials. In the old days, players learned from personal coaching, instinct, and maybe a little published material.
For the last 50 years or more, the BCA seems to have treated our 'sport' more like a family recreational pasttime -- not the highly challenging physical/mental sport it really is -- and that's a damn shame.
Now, the Euro's and Asians and Philipinos come along and treat our sport with the dignity and discipline and support it deserves, and surprise, surprise -- the Americans are left looking up
Of course the games are different, but I would certainly put Efren specifically up with Greenleaf and Mosconi, and the top international players of today up with the top tournament players of yesterday. But as for the action guys, I would give the nod to the earlier generations (in general) as Freddy did -- the 60's players above today's action guys, and the depression guys the nod over them -- but what do I know
Johnnyt said:
Adult bully comes to mind.
It's really not possible to compare the stars of different eras in any sport. But I certainly agree with the greatness of Wille Mosconi.
When I was 18, in 1968, having played pool for about a year, I got to see Mosconi give two exhibitions. In the first, after the opening break, he ran 57. His run was stopped when the cueball was kicked into the side pocket. When he got back to the table, he matter of factly ran 93 and out. Then he turned to the audience and asked, "You want to see me go to 150?" Of course we all say, yes! So he did. Then he stopped and did trick shots.
The second time I saw him, he ran 150 after the opening break. Because he did it so fast, he asked if we wanted to see him go to 200. "Yes! Yes!" we collectively replied. So he did. Easy as could be. Then he stopped and did trick shots.
My only regret is I was not really aware how special his performance was. He did not miss a ball. He did not play a single safety. He never got tied up. His runs, 150 and 200, were unfinished. I only wish I understood straight pool better at the time so I could have learned more from his patterns.
The amazing thing is, over the years, I've told about watching Willie play and over and over I heard guys say, "Yeah, he did the same thing when I saw him. Ran 150 and just stopped."
To anyone who plays straight pool, you know how easy it is to get tied up on a break shot or secondary break shot, or how easy it is to let the cueball roll a half inch too far, leaving no shot, or let your attention drift the slightest bit and miss a hanger. In 400 shots, I never saw Mosconi miss a ball, or fail to have a shot.
When I was 18, in 1968, having played pool for about a year, I got to see Mosconi give two exhibitions. In the first, after the opening break, he ran 57. His run was stopped when the cueball was kicked into the side pocket. When he got back to the table, he matter of factly ran 93 and out. Then he turned to the audience and asked, "You want to see me go to 150?" Of course we all say, yes! So he did. Then he stopped and did trick shots.
The second time I saw him, he ran 150 after the opening break. Because he did it so fast, he asked if we wanted to see him go to 200. "Yes! Yes!" we collectively replied. So he did. Easy as could be. Then he stopped and did trick shots.
My only regret is I was not really aware how special his performance was. He did not miss a ball. He did not play a single safety. He never got tied up. His runs, 150 and 200, were unfinished. I only wish I understood straight pool better at the time so I could have learned more from his patterns.
The amazing thing is, over the years, I've told about watching Willie play and over and over I heard guys say, "Yeah, he did the same thing when I saw him. Ran 150 and just stopped."
To anyone who plays straight pool, you know how easy it is to get tied up on a break shot or secondary break shot, or how easy it is to let the cueball roll a half inch too far, leaving no shot, or let your attention drift the slightest bit and miss a hanger. In 400 shots, I never saw Mosconi miss a ball, or fail to have a shot.
The Genie?
I have never heard anyone called that (the Genie), but you are probably referring to the great black player James Evans from NY. I never seen him play. I aint that old! All I ever heard is he could play and gamble with anybody, and I mean anybody.
the Beard
Bank on, brother!
the Beard said:
I have never heard anyone called that (the Genie), but you are probably referring to the great black player James Evans from NY. I never seen him play. I aint that old! All I ever heard is he could play and gamble with anybody, and I mean anybody.
the Beard
Bank on, brother!