Initial team usa squad is named for mosconi cup xxv

[hon400ex]

I didn't read the whole post so forgive me if this has been covered. People are saying we need to play in international events to get stronger but its expensive. Darren Appleton has the WPS going on, and several top US players didn't participate. Lots of top caliber opponents there. It would have been good experience at a much lower cost than traveling internationally. And I do understand that there was a big bar box tournament the same weekend and a much better chance for them to make money at it. Its just too bad they overlapped because I'd love to see more turnout at his events. There seems to be several international players at them and it would be great experience.

 

[mikepage]

Yes, but the US probably has 10 rotation games pool players to every one in Europe, so maybe we should have 260 such players if Europe has 26.

We find basically no evidence that "rotation pool" is a specialized skill in more than a trivial way.

 

[nine_ball6970]

We find basically no evidence that "rotation pool" is a specialized skill in more than a trivial way.

It seems it was a specialized skill when Europe was using snooker players in the Mosconi Cup. United States dominated Mosconi Cup until some Europeans began playing rotation games more often than once a year.

USA might still win if they only faced snooker players.

It would be interesting to know how many Europeans play rotation competitively? Snooker competitively? Blackball competitively?

Pretty much everyone in USA who plays competitively plays rotation.

Europeans focus on fundamentals and drills growing up whereas most Americans just figure it out as they go. Most top Americans have worked with an Instructor. Lee Brett worked with SVB, Morra, Dechaine, etc at least for a time. Bergman worked with Wilson growing up from what I have heard.

Kids need to learn to play the right way from the beginning to find out how good they can really be.

 

[mikepage]

It seems it was a specialized skill when Europe was using snooker players in the Mosconi Cup. United States dominated Mosconi Cup until some Europeans began playing rotation games more often than once a year.

I should clarify what I mean. I have no doubt if snooker players or 8-ball players jump into a rotation competition --something they almost never play--they're going to underperform.

We make a distinction, though, between a familiarity gap and a core competency gap. 50-100 hours goes a long way toward erasing the familiarity gap. But nobody changes core competency very much in 50-100 hours unless they are pretty new to pool.

It would be interesting to know how many Europeans play rotation competitively? Snooker competitively? Blackball competitively?

I don't know. But the UK has a population about like NY,NJ, PA up through New England. And it has the Great Britain 9-Ball Tour --several high-quality events a year that attract the top UK players and usually a handful from the continent-- There are about 50 that seem to be performing at 700+ speed (half of whom are established). I think this is about what you'd find in that NE US region.

 

[sjm]

We find basically no evidence that "rotation pool" is a specialized skill in more than a trivial way.

Rotation pool means 9 and 10 ball. Other than the variation on rotation called "Chicago" I've never seen rotation played in America. When you go to Europe, there are far fewer people who play cuesports of any kind, but most of those that do don't play pool. Countless billiard parlors in Europe don't even have a pool table.

Whatever your evidence or lack thereof, 9 and 10 ball require a higher skill in pattern play than the other pool games, as the balls must be played in a predetermined order. Also, defensive and kicking skills are more important in 9 and 10 ball than in 8-ball or 14.1, and it is in this area where America gets hurt the most year after year. Finally, other than one pocket, a game not really played in Europe, 9 and 10 ball offer more opportunities to play offense and defense together than the other games played on a pool table. So, yes, rotation game skills like complex pattern play, kicking, defense and two way shots do require a different skill set than the other games and these skills are specialized in much more than a trivial way.

Look harder, for it's my opinion that your conclusion is in error.

 

[BRussell]

It's not about population at all. Population is completely irrelevant. Given how many rotation game pool players there are in America, it's really hard to fathom how few are reaching the most elite levels of play.

I went back and forth with Mike Page on this issue a while back. If it’s just population, why doesn’t the US have 5 times as many snooker world champions as the UK, and 5 times as many top cricket teams?

I think the population difference between Europe and the US matches (or really, overestimates) the differences in top pool players, but that could be an anomaly unless the pattern holds for other regions. Taiwan must be over-producing world-beaters given its small population, and where are all of India’s (pop = billion) pool champs? India should have 2-3 times as many world-beaters as Europe, if Mike’s right.

 

[mikepage]

I went back and forth with Mike Page on this issue a while back. If it’s just population, why doesn’t the US have 5 times as many snooker world champions as the UK, and 5 times as many top cricket teams?

I think the population difference between Europe and the US matches (or really, overestimates) the differences in top pool players, but that could be an anomaly unless the pattern holds for other regions. Taiwan must be over-producing world-beaters given its small population, and where are all of India’s (pop = billion) pool champs? India should have 2-3 times as many world-beaters as Europe, if Mike’s right.

I think I am being unclear.

Taiwan, a population of 23 million produces a ridiculous number of top pool players. I think there are at 7 females over 700, and it about the size of Florida.

India--as you say-- is the opposite.

Poland stands out in Europe.

You seem to think I'm saying the population is what determines the number of good pool players. Not at all. People who think about these things DO need to explain why Taiwan is different from India and what is different about Poland and Hungary.

What I am saying is something different. If Florida (20M) has twice as many good pool players as Georgia (10M), then there is nothing more to explain. That's all.

Now if someone says the best 5-player team from Florida beats the best 5-player team from Georgia and follows it with there must be something in the Florida water or the way kids are raised or whatever, then I'd be saying there is no reason to search for such explanations. That result is consistent with what is expected from the population differences.

 

[mikepage]

[...]9 and 10 ball require a higher skill in pattern play than the other pool games, as the balls must be played in a predetermined order. [...]

I think we must mean something different by the phrase "pattern play."

 

[Tin Man]

Oj

Now if someone says the best 5-player team from Florida beats the best 5-player team from Georgia and follows it with there must be something in the Florida water or the way kids are raised or whatever, then I'd be saying there is no reason to search for such explanations

So what you're saying is oranges are better for top pool than peaches? How many oranges are there in the UK? Or Taiwan? And why can't our top oranges get there with Europe's? We invented the orange...

 

[HawaiianEye]

The reason the players from Taiwan are so good is that they play close to the center of the cue ball. That is the way they are taught. They aren't trying to learn how to "spin" the cue ball around the table like Earl Strickland from the first day they pick up a cue.

Their fundamentals are better than most...they aren't necessarily the best...they are just SUPER consistent and have plenty of FOCUS.

 

[BRussell]

You seem to think I'm saying the population is what determines the number of good pool players. Not at all. People who think about these things DO need to explain why Taiwan is different from India and what is different about Poland and Hungary.

What I am saying is something different. If Florida (20M) has twice as many good pool players as Georgia (10M), then there is nothing more to explain. That's all.

Right, you’re saying it determines it in the one case where it fits, but it doesn’t in all the cases where it doesn’t fit. How about instead we just conclude that population isn’t really a factor?

I would say you’re right if it was GA and FL, which probably have very similar proportions of pool players, but the US has a far higher number of pool players than Europe (correct me if I’m wrong), which undermines the simple population explanation too.

 

[mikepage]

Right, you’re saying it determines it in the one case where it fits, but it doesn’t in all the cases where it doesn’t fit. How about instead we just conclude that population isn’t really a factor?

I would say you’re right if it was GA and FL, which probably have very similar proportions of pool players, but the US has a far higher number of pool players than Europe (correct me if I’m wrong), which undermines the simple population explanation too.

Whoa.... Wait a minute... Population is not a "factor," "Factors" only com into play when results differ from what is expected. Population just related to those expectations.

High-school A, 2000 students
High-school B, 2000 students
High-school C, 2000 students
High-school D, 2000 students
High-school E, 2000 students

Let's say they all have a basketball team and the teams are roughly competitive with one another. OK, no big surprise.

Now suppose High-School A plays a game against an all-star from schools B, C, D, and E.

High-School A, 2000 students
High-Schools BCDE, 8000 students --better team and no surprise.

In the first case, we might try to explain what differences DO exist by looking at demographics, good coach, whether there is a youth basketball program, popularity of competing sports, and so forth. These are "factors."

But in the second case, we don't need such explanations of WHY the all-star team is better.

 

[Maniac]

Whoa.... Wait a minute... Population is not a "factor," "Factors" only com into play when results differ from what is expected. Population just related to those expectations.

High-school A, 2000 students
High-school B, 2000 students
High-school C, 2000 students
High-school D, 2000 students
High-school E, 2000 students

Let's say they all have a basketball team and the teams are roughly competitive with one another. OK, no big surprise.

Now suppose High-School A plays a game against an all-star from schools B, C, D, and E.

High-School A, 2000 students
High-Schools BCDE, 8000 students --better team and no surprise.

In the first case, we might try to explain what differences DO exist by looking at demographics, good coach, whether there is a youth basketball program, popularity of competing sports, and so forth. These are "factors."

But in the second case, we don't need such explanations of WHY the all-star team is better.

Excellent analogy.

Maniac

 

[HawaiianEye]

The USA has roughly 327.5 million people (2017).

Taiwan has roughly 23.57 million people (2018).

So, the USA has 14 times the population of Taiwan.

Assuming the same proportion of their population plays pool as does the USA's, why can their "All Star Team" beat our "All Star Team"?

 

[mikepage]

The USA has roughly 327.5 million people (2017).

Taiwan has roughly 23.57 million people (2018).

So, the USA has 14 times the population of Taiwan.

Assuming the same proportion of their population plays pool as does the USA's, why can their "All Star Team" beat our "All Star Team"?

NOW we're finally talking. Thank you!

 

[HawaiianEye]

NOW we're finally talking. Thank you!

And, FWIW, the Philippines has 106.5 million people (2018).

So, the USA has three times as many people as them.

 

[HawaiianEye]

One of the reasons that Taiwan has better players is that they are a small island with a very large population density.

The island is only 245 miles from North to South and 144 miles from East to West, at its widest point.

There are three major cities in Taiwan that make up the majority of the population: Taipei, Kaohsiung, and Taichung, which compromise around half, or more, of the island's entire population. Most of the top players are from one of these cities.

All of their best players are within driving range of, no more than, a few hours of each other.

There aren't tons and tons of pools halls in Taiwan, as one might think. Most of them are in the major cities.

Therefore, I think their players play a "better caliber" of player on average everyday and they intermingle and gamble with each other more often.

The USA has a lot of good players, but they are spread across the entire country and don't have the opportunity to play better players all the time, which stifles their ability to get better. You can't get everything from watching youtube and reading books.

FWIW, I lived in Taiwan in the 70s and never saw a "pool" table in the entire country, except for the military bases or clubs. The Taiwanese only played snooker back then, from what I ever saw. I lived above a snooker hall.

I wish they would have had pool halls back then. I think I could have won some money. I won plenty from the Americans gambling and won the island-wide championships two years running.

I hope to go to the event later this year, where Taiwan is playing the Philippines in Taichung.

 

[Maniac]

The USA has roughly 327.5 million people (2017).

Taiwan has roughly 23.57 million people (2018).

So, the USA has 14 times the population of Taiwan.

Assuming the same proportion of their population plays pool as does the USA's, why can their "All Star Team" beat our "All Star Team"?

IDK...but I bet dedication and sponsorship has something to do with it.

Maniac

 

[BRussell]

Whoa.... Wait a minute... Population is not a "factor," "Factors" only com into play when results differ from what is expected. Population just related to those expectations.

High-school A, 2000 students
High-school B, 2000 students
High-school C, 2000 students
High-school D, 2000 students
High-school E, 2000 students

Let's say they all have a basketball team and the teams are roughly competitive with one another. OK, no big surprise.

Now suppose High-School A plays a game against an all-star from schools B, C, D, and E.

High-School A, 2000 students
High-Schools BCDE, 8000 students --better team and no surprise.

In the first case, we might try to explain what differences DO exist by looking at demographics, good coach, whether there is a youth basketball program, popularity of competing sports, and so forth. These are "factors."

But in the second case, we don't need such explanations of WHY the all-star team is better.

We’ve gone around on this enough so I won’t belabor it. In my view, there are enough cases to know that total population is not related to a country’s top pool talent. That’s been disproven. There must be other factors that account for any differences. What hypothetically may be true in hypothetical high school or state comparisons doesn’t prove what we already know isn’t true between countries.

 

[mikepage]

We’ve gone around on this enough so I won’t belabor it. In my view, there are enough cases to know that total population is not related to a country’s top pool talent. That’s been disproven. There must be other factors that account for any differences. [...]

This is frightening to me, and it makes me fear I am being unclear elsewhere more than I imagine.

I am stating no opinion, only making a pretty obvious point that maybe is so trivial that people think I must be saying something else.
--Is 68 a good golf score? You MUST know whether it is a score for 9 holes or 18 holes to answer.
--I missed 5 shots. Is that good? Need to know whether you played two games or 20 games to answer
--There are XX players over 7XX speed in my state/country? Is that good?Need to know whether you are Rhode Island or Texas.

Most of the scatter in the plot below of number of players over 700 is due our lack of data; we are much better in some states than others. But when this fills in it will be more like the population curve and "good" and "bad" will be referenced to an expectation based on the top curve.