inside english and ball skid?

alphadog

alphadog

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Having trouble understanding a comment by John Scmidt about not
using inside english as it causes balls to skid.How does L vs R rotation
effect object ball skid?
I am ,a 50 ball runner, nowhere near John's speed.Perhaps I use to much
inside!
Thanks in advance,Jack
 
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Skid

alphadog said:
Having trouble understanding a comment by John Scmidt about not
using inside english as it causes balls to skid.How does L vs R rotation
effect object ball skid?
Thanks in advance,Jack
Click to expand...

I have discovered a long time ago that inside english will cause skid on a high %. Way more times then other strokes. It is good to hear that Scmidt made that comment. I did not know that he did. At least, I am right on some of the times.......LOL
 
alphadog said:
Having trouble understanding a comment by John Scmidt about not
using inside english as it causes balls to skid.How does L vs R rotation
effect object ball skid?
I am ,a 50 ball runner, nowhere near John's speed.Perhaps I use to much
inside!
Thanks in advance,Jack
Click to expand...
One of the most incredible skids I ever saw was shot by Lou Butera. The object ball was less than a foot from the side pocket (from the direction of the foot spot) and the cue ball was a foot or less from the object ball. Lou used inside english for the required position and the object ball did not even hit the point -- it hit full on the flat part of the near rail.

Outside english can often negate skid, but the amount of side spin has to be correct. There is a video of Ronnie O'Sullivan using outside draw on a black to get back to the side cushion and spin out by the pink. The black hit no part of the pocket and the cue ball did not have the right action. This was clearly a skid due to too much outside english. Also, it was at high speed, which you usually don't associate with skids.
 
Skid questions......

From my experience, skid is most often caused by ball conditions. It is almost always caused by the friction between the balls being great enough to allow the balls to stay together for an extended time. So ? What causes this ? Dirty, chalk covered balls.
The fact that your cue ball is close to the object ball will allow, with a little reverse english too, the balls to stick together for a micro second.

Solution ..... ! Clean the balls before every session, and you will see skid disappear from your game.

(Clean the balls with a white clorox wipe, and look at what stays on the wipe when you're done, you will be shocked)
 
Yoda4962 said:
(Clean the balls with a white clorox wipe, and look at what stays on the wipe when you're done, you will be shocked)
Click to expand...

Was wondering if the clorox was too harsh for the finish of the balls. I learned by accident not to use oxy clean. (it eats the finish right off!)
 
Since I posted this I have drawn a conclusion that inside sends the object
ball spinning ahead=away from desired cut line.
Outside may send the object ball spinning ahead but it would be along the
desired cut line.
As bad as skid is,how about cutting a ball into the side and having english
change the cb's path to follow it in! Looks odd when you scratch in a "can't
scratch" situation.

Worst case scenario for skid has to be - new slick cloth and dirty balls!
 
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alphadog said:
Since I posted this I have drawn a conclusion that inside sends the object
ball spinning ahead=away from desired cut line.
Outside may send the object ball spinning ahead but it would be along the
desired cut line.
As bad as skid is,how about cutting a ball into the side and having english
change the cb's path to follow it in! Looks odd when you scratch in a "can't
scratch" situation.

Worst case scenario for skid has to be - new slick cloth and dirty balls!
Click to expand...

I have that problem when I wear new boxer shorts.
 
is it possible to have a skid on a straight shot with no english? the reason i ask...

...last night i had a straight-in shot on my key-to-the-key ball, about 5 feet altogether from the cue to the object to the pocket, diagonally across the table. the shot was crossing the line of the next shot, so it needed to roll, because the key ball in my poorly-chosen pattern was about on the foot spot, so if the cue didn't roll to where i could shoot it into the corner, i'd be totally out of shape, straight on to the foot rail.

i thought i stroked the shot perfectly, but when the cb hit the ob, there was a sick thud instead of a click, and the cue seemed to climb a little up the ob and bounce. it stopped way short of where it should have and i was SOL.

my sparring mate was using kamui, which i've grown to hate, and i blame it on that.

thoughts?
 
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There's one other thing to consider here. There is one set of conditions when using reverse english which can cause the balls to react as if they skidded when they actually didn't. Let's say you're shooting a mid-range shot & cutting the OB to the left. If this shot is hit with a good amount of left english & also at a slow speed it may react exactly as if it skidded but what actually happens is that the CB curves to the left causing a fuller hit. Also, when contacting the OB the left english throws it to the right. So the OB is going way to the right of the intended path & will react as if it skidded. And even a very slight downward movement of the cue, intended or not, will magnify this effect. This will happen every time under the described conditions unless compensated for when aiming. Take a shot where the CB travels 3-4 feet before contacting the OB. Depending on how slow & how much english, if a 1/2 ball hit is required to make the shot it may be necessary to aim to miss the OB completely. Sometimes by a good amount.
This is a shot that's not shot very often & as such people may be unfamiliar with it. It takes awhile to get a feel for how much to compensate. But it's a shot that should be in your arsenal because it pops up once in awhile particularly in straight pool. Most often when a ball is situated close to the long rail somewhere about the 2nd diamond & the CB is about 3 feet away & on a 30-40 degree angle. There's also a potential break ball say 8" or so off the rail & slightly below the object ball. You want to avoid that ball & your desired position zone is down next to the bottom rail on the right side of the table. The only feasible way to get there is to shoot the shot I described. One other thing that happens here is because you're aiming more to the right & the Cb is curving back to the left it's approaching the OB at a slightly shallower angle which helps to bypass the break ball & also stay more to the right side of the table.
Follow is not required nor wanted on this shot. It's the left english that gets you there. Middle to low ball, almost like a drag stroke but not quite.
Doubt this is what John was talking about, just thought I'd throw it out there. He's quite right though in saying balls skid more often when applying reverse english. If you're good enough to run 50 then I'm sure you've noticed this. If not you're either hitting the balls too hard or you need to use more inside then you say you are (just kidding). There's a reason why it happens but I'll let the Physics majors explain it. Practice that shot I descibed. Who knows, someday you may need it to preserve a break ball that allows you to run 100.
 
alphadog said:
Since I posted this I have drawn a conclusion that inside sends the object
ball spinning ahead=away from desired cut line.
Outside may send the object ball spinning ahead but it would be along the
desired cut line.
As bad as skid is,how about cutting a ball into the side and having english
change the cb's path to follow it in! Looks odd when you scratch in a "can't
scratch" situation.

Worst case scenario for skid has to be - new slick cloth and dirty balls!
Click to expand...

Just saw you put something up while I was writing my last post (very slow typer). What you say is true but not true. It's not spinning ahead but being thrown by the english. Consequently the ball can also be thrown by outside english causing the ball to be overcut. Nobody's mentioning speed here & that has a lot to do with the affects of english on the balls. Slow = more english, hence more throw; hard= less. One of the factors involved in this is that , in general, shots hit with inside will usually be hit with slower speeds than ones hit with outside. There's a very good reason for that. Do you know what it is?
Anyway, shots hit with slower speed will either have little to no deflection or actually curve slightly in the direction of the applied english. All of this magnifies the throw affect. Or is it "effect", never can figure out which is correct in a given sentence.
Balls hit a little harder are not affected by curve but are often affected by deflection which has a self correcting affect on any throw which was caused by english at the moment of impact. The slight deflection gives a fuller hit which would cause the ball to be undercut but the throw from the english brings it back in line & you make the shot. Low deflection shafts negate this but not entirely. You might benefit greatly by experimenting some & observing how english & throw affect things at different speeds.
 
wigglybridge said:
is it possible to have a skid on a straight shot with no english? the reason i ask...

...last night i had a straight-in shot on my key-to-the-key ball, about 5 feet altogether from the cue to the object to the pocket, diagonally across the table. the shot was crossing the line of the next shot, so it needed to roll, because the key ball in my poorly-chosen pattern was about on the foot spot, so if the cue didn't roll to where i could shoot it into the corner, i'd be totally out of shape, straight on to the foot rail.

i thought i stroked the shot perfectly, but when the cb hit the ob, there was a sick thud instead of a click, and the cue seemed to climb a little up the ob and bounce. it stopped way short of where it should have and i was SOL.

my sparring mate was using kamui, which i've grown to hate, and i blame it on that.

thoughts?
Click to expand...

The situation you described was more than likely caused by lack of follow through. The result you desired can be achieved 3 different ways. Which would be optimum would depend on the distance between the CB & OB, & also on how much you wanted the CB to roll ahead.
 
wigglybridge said:
i thought i stroked the shot perfectly, but when the cb hit the ob, there was a sick thud instead of a click, and the cue seemed to climb a little up the ob and bounce. it stopped way short of where it should have and i was SOL.

my sparring mate was using kamui, which i've grown to hate, and i blame it on that.

thoughts?
Click to expand...

Yeah it's just skid. It happens to me way more than I'd like (even from 12" away), and funny enough it only seems to happen when I'm on the key ball or the ball before that! I think if I buff the balls before each evening of play it will happen less often.
 
I agree with Dan...you can definitely get skid on a straight shot and the result is way less forward roll. It doesn't happen often.

Andy
 
just think about how gears work.

when you put inside english on the ball the gears bind up. outside english is more natural on the balls as they connect with each other and roll off each other.

hope that makes sense.
-Steve
 
I'm not so sure that inside is the cause of the skid as much as it causes CIT in the same direction as the slid so it appears amplified. In other words, maybe inside doesn't cause the skid but if you use inside and happen to encounter a skid it will make it worse. And since skids are typically caused by increased friction at the point of contact, this would also tend to amplify the throw.
 
Playing lot of 1pocket for whatever reason I tend to use more low inside and I don't think I've ever gotten a skid with that. Playing some 14.1 lately and using some high inside, on a swallow angle shot, I got a big honking skid. FWIW.

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
Playing lot of 1pocket for whatever reason I tend to use more low inside and I don't think I've ever gotten a skid with that. Playing some 14.1 lately and using some high inside, on a swallow angle shot, I got a big honking skid. FWIW.

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...
It could be that with follow the chalk spot from the tip on the cue ball more often ends up at the ball-ball contact point. That's certainly the theory I was using the single time I got intentional skid without actually chalking a ball.
With draw you can imagine that the chalk has more chance to wear off.
 
again i think its the GEARS principle.

with Draw the transfer of english to the object ball would be follow which is the natural direction of the object ball.

Follow put draw on the object ball, which is opposite of its path.

-Steve
 
Bob Jewett said:
Outside english can often negate skid, but the amount of side spin has to be correct.
Click to expand...

I use an expression teaching/instructing in Swiss German that I'm not sure translates well into English, which would something like "roll-off English". What it means is the exact amount of side spin that will result in no friction cutting an object ball. It's what I recommend using invariably in extreme situations, such as on the game ball when it's humid and equipment is dirty, especially when no cue ball position is required. Most good players can tell by feel how much side spin they have to apply to achieve this depending on conditions, the distance of the cue ball to the object ball, chosen speed of the shot etc. Mike Sigel once said to invariably use half a tip of outside English, by which he really means what I'm explaining here - his is a simplification. I'll never forget one of the most important matches in my playing career when the conditions changed so radically (it started raining all of a sudden, and the telly tables were set up outside in a tent) that I even adjusted my position play to the above, in short, I played all I could with "roll-off English for fear of skids, and to this day I'm wondering if I won in part due to the fact that my (otherwise formidable) opponent stubbornly proceeded as if the conditions were still what they were at the beginning of the match.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
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