Inside English misses!

Colin Colenso said:
Good to see we're back on topic.

Not to be a nit-picker, because CJ's advice is very useful for most players in most situations where they are applying inside english. A few points to consider though:

This advice works well on soft to medium speed shots when the player is bridging shorter than the effective pivot point, which is predominant imho.

On firmer shots, the effective pivot point gets shorter, so pivoting may lead to over cutting in those situations. The reduced throw at CB - OB contact also thins the cut on firmer shots.

Also, for players who bridge beyond the length of their effective pivot point, pivoting will also over cut.

For many players, some degree of slight parallel aiming off center, followed by a little pivot, could be a predictable way for them to play inside english more confidently on soft to medium speed shots with less than 3 feet between CB and OB.

On longer and more powerful IE shots, I much prefer a pure pivot mechanism, but this relies on more familiarity with the effective pivot point for that cue, speed of shot and table conditions (which effect swerve).
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Excellent post, Colin. Very well thought out, and very well stated.

If people want to learn more background dealing with some of these important topics, more info can be found here:

cue natural pivot length
squirt, swerve, and throw effects
back-hand english (BHE) and front-hand english (FHE)
inside english effects

Colin, it is good to have you back in full force on AZB. You have been missed. Where have you been?

Cheers,
Dave
 
Colin:

You are a monster. A three quarter ball hit and you are so accurate you can change from aiming for center pocket to one side or the other to adjust for the throw. Then you modify that for speed. Not to mention you've set your bridge and now you "just pivot". You are dialed in.
 
pdcue said:
Keep in mind that only about 1% of us play anything close to Keith's speed - and
most play closer to 1% of his speed. I am often surprised at how many VERY good
players struggle with inside english, thin cuts, and blind cuts. It really is just a matter
of practice, practice, practice - and getting to Carnegie Hall...

His "famous" super spin inside english "It's like a nightmare" shot from TCOM is one
I like to use when warming up.

Dale(more than 1% - but not a lot more)
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When I got to Arizona I wanted to play in a tournament but I had never had any kind of rating other than Busche leagues 30 years ago or more.
I told him I was probably the strongest 3 he had ever seen.
 
dr_dave said:
Excellent post, Colin. Very well thought out, and very well stated.

If people want to learn more background dealing with some of these important topics, more info can be found here:

cue natural pivot length
squirt, swerve, and throw effects
back-hand english (BHE) and front-hand english (FHE)
inside english effects

Colin, it is good to have you back in full force on AZB. You have been missed. Where have you been?

Cheers,
Dave
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Thanks Dave!

btw: Hope everyone appreciates the great resources you provide and so often link to for everyone's convenience.

I've been playing more that usual lately, though mostly English 8 ball on a 7 foot table with the tight rounded pockets. I actually find it a more aggressive potting and positional game than US 9 or 10 ball, though I have one of those tables set up in my garage too.

Had a little time off my business lately so thought I'd catch up on here. It's something you need to commit a few days to, in order to reply. It can be a big time absorber staying up to date and in the conversation. Work will probably drag me away soon enough, but I'll maintain an interest no doubt.

Have been working on a new game for the last few years, gradually refining the rules to find something that can work across all table formats. A purely offensive game, in the sense that golf, darts, bowling, archery, shooting, track & field and many other games / sports are. I don't think we get to see half of the advanced offensive skills the best players have in the current popular formats because defense is nearly always the better option when a challenging shot is required. I won't hijack the thread with details though. I'm planning an exhibition match in the next 2 months, which will be on video with commentary.
 
JohnnyP said:
Colin:

You are a monster. A three quarter ball hit and you are so accurate you can change from aiming for center pocket to one side or the other to adjust for the throw. Then you modify that for speed. Not to mention you've set your bridge and now you "just pivot". You are dialed in.
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Hey Johnny,
My missus calls me a monster too sometimes ;-)

My original aim may actually be to the right, center or left of pocket, but by shifting the bridge a little, as to imagine aiming for the side, that pretty much counters the throw that is predicted.

The amount of throw and the requisite adjustment is pretty intuitive now, but I do have comprehensive charts / diagrams that detail the throw for all speed angles and types of spin which have assisted me in being able to estimate the throw component, relative to a medium speed rolling pot, quite accurately.

My warm up is usually potting random angle shots with medium speed natural roll with the odd power stun and medium draw shot (all center ball), to get my eye in. These 3 shots all present nearly identical throw amounts for every shot. Once that alignment is good to go, the aim is always the same, making slight bridge adjustments to compensate for variations in throw and pivoting when side english is required.

I'm attaching the throw charts for 3/4 ball hits right to left cut, from soft shots (top left), to hard shots (bottom right). The colors represent 1 inch per yard traveled in throw differential compared to a medium speed naturally rolling hit. The positions on the circle represent the degree of spin on the ball at contact with the OB.

Notice that the biggest throw differential is about 4 inches per yard over cut with extreme outside english sliding CB on the slow hit (purple), with medium inside english on a sliding cue ball throwing about 3.5 inches per yard in the opposite direction (red), hence under cutting. That's why these types of shots should be avoided like the plague. At higher speeds, the throw differential is much easier to adjust for.

Additional thought... while in normal play, one would avoid these shots, they are very useful when you can't hit the object ball at the required contact point. You can use a soft sliding sidespin shot to turn the shot quite severely making it on. Knowing what speed and spin throws how much, can make this turning much more predictable.
 

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Colin:

The top left diagram reminds me of a cross section of the Earth, compared to a cross section of Pluto. :)

"The outer shell of the Earth is called the mantle, the next layer is the molten magma, surrounding the nuclear core."
images


Is that your data, or can I read about it somewhere?

I have to admit I have been ignoring throw when spinning the ball. The most surprising miss is shooting something with slow inside to check the CB and horribly undercutting it. For example, CB and OB on a line parallel to the bottom rail, OB about one diamond out from the corner. Had a heck of a time during practice before a weekly tourney. The balls were freshly waxed. More throw when waxed?
 
Dave:

I watched your throw video when you posted it, thanks very much. I'm sure that was a big investment in time.

I don't know what type of wax the TD is using, I doubt it's Aramith. Looks like that would be the thing to use.
 
JohnnyP said:
Colin:

The top left diagram reminds me of a cross section of the Earth, compared to a cross section of Pluto. :)

"The outer shell of the Earth is called the mantle, the next layer is the molten magma, surrounding the nuclear core."
images


Is that your data, or can I read about it somewhere?

I have to admit I have been ignoring throw when spinning the ball. The most surprising miss is shooting something with slow inside to check the CB and horribly undercutting it. For example, CB and OB on a line parallel to the bottom rail, OB about one diamond out from the corner. Had a heck of a time during practice before a weekly tourney. The balls were freshly waxed. More throw when waxed?
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Johnny, you got me at mantle!

I'm actually a geology honors graduate by education, via Melbourne University, hence titillated by geological references. Well, ears peaked, lol.

Not convinced that waxing makes much difference, though I'm not an expert in variations of ball frictions. I think cloth conditions, which effect swerve are far more important in how they effect swerve on shots with side english.

In the last 24 hours, my pure pivot point test extended nearly an inch after a cool change came in. as a result of a more humid grippy cloth which increased the swerve component.

When using BHE, I avoid shots that alter throw by more the 1 inch per yard, unless the OB is close to a pocket, as all players do. If forced to play high throw differential pots, I can get in the ball park, but they're rarely shots of choice.

I've got a video on youtube called Throw Test, which shows about 14 inches of differential from hitting the same contact point on a 3/4 ball hit when using soft sliding outside english versus soft inside english over 7 foot of object ball travel.

Soft stun thickish shots with english are a disaster waiting to happen if the OB isn't close to a pocket, using BHE or any other method.

I try to choose options using side that require the least throw adjustments. The main adjustments I make are for outside english stun type shots, which I prefer to play with speed, to reduce the throw component to about 1 inch per yard.
 
dr_dave said:
The type of cleaner or wax used, and the cleanliness/dirtiness of the balls, can make a big difference on throw. For more info, see:

NV D.16 - Pool ball cut-induced throw and cling/skid/kick experiment

and

"Throw Follow-up: Part I: Cling" (BD, July, 2014).
"Throw Follow-up: Part II: More Results" (BD, August, 2014).

Enjoy,
Dave
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That's interesting Dave, I don't get to compare various balls. I'm aware throw varies with cleanliness and other surface properties, but as I mentioned in the previous post, I find that cloth conditions that effect swerve play a more substantial role in adapting to use of side english.
 
Colin Colenso said:
Johnny, you got me at mantle!

I'm actually a geology honors graduate by education, via Melbourne University, hence titillated by geological references. Well, ears peaked, lol.

Not convinced that waxing makes much difference, though I'm not an expert in variations of ball frictions. I think cloth conditions, which effect swerve are far more important in how they effect swerve on shots with side english.

In the last 24 hours, my pure pivot point test extended nearly an inch after a cool change came in. as a result of a more humid grippy cloth which increased the swerve component.

When using BHE, I avoid shots that alter throw by more the 1 inch per yard, unless the OB is close to a pocket, as all players do. If forced to play high throw differential pots, I can get in the ball park, but they're rarely shots of choice.

I've got a video on youtube called Throw Test, which shows about 14 inches of differential from hitting the same contact point on a 3/4 ball hit when using soft sliding outside english versus soft inside english over 7 foot of object ball travel.

Soft stun thickish shots with english are a disaster waiting to happen if the OB isn't close to a pocket, using BHE or any other method.

I try to choose options using side that require the least throw adjustments. The main adjustments I make are for outside english stun type shots, which I prefer to play with speed, to reduce the throw component to about 1 inch per yard.
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Colon,

In New Orleans the Humidity can change sometimes by the hour. I am amazed at the difference it can make. When I was younger I seemed to adjust for the differences in swerve & throw much better or at least quicker than I do now at 61. Sometimes one can target the 'outside' point & throw it into the center of the pocket & maybe a couple of hours later the same shot, hit the same way will throw all the way across the pocket & miss on the other side. I agree with you that the change in cloth condition makes a more significant difference than what is the 'normal' difference in ball slickness or lack of slickness. Earl Strickland knows about the changes that can happen when an arena is near empty for practice & when a crowd of people come in to watch. It's very difficult to keep the same conditions & that is part of what gives the game it's character. But...it sure would be nice to have the same conditions day in & day out or better yet hour to hour.

I am enjoying reading your posts. You have a combination of science & player character to them.

Best Wishes,
Rick
 
JohnnyP said:
Is that your data, or can I read about it somewhere?
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The data came from Dr. Dave based on my request of various data points.

I placed that data into graphical anaylisis software to create the diagrams which I feel represent characteristics of throw in a more intuitive way.

That said, Dr. Dave has some basic throw rules which explain pretty much all most players need to know, but I think these charts add deeper insight, and potentially a more accurate means to determine throw in a simple manner.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Colon,

In New Orleans the Humidity can change sometimes by the hour. I am amazed at the difference it can make. When I was younger I seemed to adjust for the differences in swerve & throw much better or at least quicker than I do now at 61. Sometimes one can target the 'outside' point & throw it into the center of the pocket & maybe a couple of hours later the same shot, hit the same way will throw all the way across the pocket & miss on the other side. I agree with you that the change in cloth condition makes a more significant difference than what is the 'normal' difference in ball slickness or lack of slickness. Earl Strickland knows about the changes that can happen when an arena is near empty for practice & when a crowd of people come in to watch. It's very difficult to keep the same conditions & that is part of what gives the game it's character. But...it sure would be nice to have the same conditions day in & day out or better yet hour to hour.

I am enjoying reading your posts. You have a combination of science & player character to them.

Best Wishes,
Rick
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Makes sense to me Rick,

There's a reason most pros of the various potting sports minimalize their use of side english, other than gearing english.

That said, give them an hour or two on a table, and they can perform side english shots with good accuracy.

When I played on the IPT, I went from my humid room with sticky cloth to air conditioned brand new slippery cloth and the slipperiest sliding rails I've ever encountered.

The better more experienced players adapt quicker to such changes. I've yet to find easy equations or ways to adapt to such changes. I usually work them out the day after under performing. ;)
 
When you play inside the cue ball and stay heavy on the balls, inside, outside, this side, that side, my side, your side, upside down and all around ....It's not that difficult.

Practice , practice, practice ,,, until you know the proper alignments for the few contact points on the cue ball that makes them all drop in the hole, no matter the distance or stroke required,.....there are only a few,,, not hundreds,, a few.

Many people make this game too complicated.
Brain Memory, Muscle Memory...I think they work...oops maybe not, I have not used it so I forget.

Pay attention to many players, They play inside the cue ball, staying center to lower cue ball, and use spin majority of the time;

Hit the freakin ball the way it needs to be hit, and hit them heavy, play inside the cue ball and your troubles will go away.

How do you get to Carnegie Hall?
Many ways, bus, taxi, limo, subway, walk, drive, helicopter, they all leave you at the door.

When you practice, they leave you on the stage
 
SmoothStroke said:
When you play inside the cue ball and stay heavy on the balls, inside, outside, this side, that side, my side, your side, upside down and all around ....It's not that difficult.

Practice , practice, practice ,,, until you know the proper alignments for the few contact points on the cue ball that makes them all drop in the hole, no matter the distance or stroke required,.....there are only a few,,, not hundreds,, a few.

Many people make this game too complicated.
Brain Memory, Muscle Memory...I think they work...oops maybe not, I have not used it so I forget.

Pay attention to many players, They play inside the cue ball, staying center to lower cue ball, and use spin majority of the time;

Hit the freakin ball the way it needs to be hit, and hit them heavy, play inside the cue ball and your troubles will go away.

How do you get to Carnegie Hall?
Many ways, bus, taxi, limo, subway, walk, drive, helicopter, they all leave you at the door.

When you practice, they leave you on the stage
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While I agree with you that the game is not TOO complicated & what you say regarding practice is correct. That said, when what you practiced this morning is not working this afternoon due to a change in the table it does not make the game that easy. I guess that's why some sacrifice the 'artful' side of the game for a more safe approach.

Best Wishes,
Rick
 
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a "hard game," into a much easier, enjoyable game.

You are right, pool is hard!!! ....and videos are even harder. ;)

It's easy to talk about these factors, however, the important thing is the knowledge of how to use them to your advantage.....to make a "hard game," into a much easier, enjoyable game.

'The GAME is the Teacher'


JohnnyP said:
Colin:

pool is hard.

Can you make a video to demonstrate what you just wrote?
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