Inside English misses!

AtLarge said:
True. Here's a little 3-miinute video from Dr. Dave (and Bob Jewett) that shows graphs of cue speed during 3 different types of stroke. Acceleration is the rate of change of velocity with respect to time, so wherever the speed curve on those graphs is upward sloping, acceleration is positive. Wherever the curve is flat, acceleration is zero. And wherever the speed curve is downward sloping, acceleration is negative (deceleration).

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-40.htm

Not all strokes would be exactly like one of the 3 shown in the video, but many would show similar characteristics.
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Thank You Sir.

That shows that the cue is accelerating nearly ALL the way to contact in what would be considered a normal pendulum type stroke. However it seems that it may have reached a peak velocity & neared or even may have reached zero(0) acceleration just before contact (the area in the red rectangle). That would seem to tell me that Mr. Jewitt was not in the optimal setup for his stroke or he was 'pulling up' in an attempt to not hit it too hard. I'd be interested in seeing like graphs for other type strokes.

Thanks again,
Rick
 
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ENGLISH! said:
AtLarge said:
True. Here's a little 3-miinute video from Dr. Dave (and Bob Jewett) that shows graphs of cue speed during 3 different types of stroke. Acceleration is the rate of change of velocity with respect to time, so wherever the speed curve on those graphs is upward sloping, acceleration is positive. Wherever the curve is flat, acceleration is zero. And wherever the speed curve is downward sloping, acceleration is negative (deceleration).

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-40.htm

Not all strokes would be exactly like one of the 3 shown in the video, but many would show similar characteristics.
Click to expand...

Thank You Sir.

That clearly shows that the cue is accelerating ALL the way to contact in what would be considered a normal stroke.
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That's not true. With a typical stroke (e.g., with most good players on most shots), the cue is not accelerating at all when the tip hits the CB. All of the acceleration occurs earlier, resulting in peak speed a CB impact. There are benefits to this approach, mostly with speed control. For a lot more info on this topic, see the stroke acceleration resource page. FYI, here's an important point on the resource page:

What people usually mean when they say "accelerate into the ball" or "finish the stroke" is: "don't decelerate into the ball" (i.e., don't slow the cue before cue ball contact). Decelerating into the ball can result in very poor speed control.

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
That's not true. With a typical stroke (e.g., with most good players on most shots), the cue is not accelerating at all when the tip hits the CB. All of the acceleration occurs earlier, resulting in peak speed a CB impact. There are benefits to this approach, mostly with speed control. For a lot more info on this topic, see the stroke acceleration resource page. FYI, here's an important point on the resource page:

What people usually mean when they say "accelerate into the ball" or "finish the stroke" is: "don't decelerate into the ball" (i.e., don't slow the cue before cue ball contact). Decelerating into the ball can result in very poor speed control.

Regards,
Dave
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Hi Dr. Dave,

I was in the process of amending my post after I re-read it & realised that I had so loosley used the phrase ALL THE WAY TO CONTACT, & inserted the word NEARLY before the phrase & elaborated.

I'm glad you are on top of things. (Red Rep. comment deleted)
 
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If the CB is in contact with the cloth, there is sliding and rolling friction.
Things change depending on the condition of the cloth like knappy new and worn out old.
 
http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-40.htm

There seems to be a rather significant difference between Mr. Gross' elbow drop 'wrist' stroke graph vs. that of Mr. Jewitt's.

There seems to be a more constant acceleration right up to contact vs. that of Mr. Jewitt's.

But, all of this has little or nothing to do with 'Inside English Misses'.

Sorry, I just thought Colin's statements might be a bit misleading for those that might not have a good understanding of the difference between a change in velocity, acceleration, vs. a change in acceleration.
 
ENGLISH! said:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-40.htm

There seems to be a rather significant difference between Mr. Gross' elbow drop 'wrist' stroke graph vs. that of Mr. Jewitt's.

There seems to be a more constant acceleration right up to contact vs. that of Mr. Jewitt's.
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... but that was an exaggerated stroke used to show the differences at an extreme (very fast speed with significant elbow drop). Again, for most good players (especially those with little or no elbow drop before CB contact), the cue is not accelerating at CB contact ... it has already reached peak speed and is simply coasting into the ball just before contact.

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
... Again, for most good players (especially those with little or no elbow drop before CB contact), the cue is not accelerating at CB contact ... it has already reached peak speed and is simply coasting into the ball just before contact.

Regards,
Dave
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Dr. Dave,

Please forgive me. I did not know that you are an authority on 'most good players'. If you don't mind, can you please tell me how you came to be an authority on 'most good players'? Or...are you merely expressing your opinion? Also, If you are an authority on 'most good players', for those good players that do have a little elbow drop or more, does their cue accelerate all the way up to contact...Or does their acceleration taper off like Mr. Jewitt's?

Thanks in Advance & Regards,
Rick
 
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Again my apologies, AK Guy. I dont believe it was me that got us off topic but we ARE off topic.

I for one have no specific problems with Inside English, but... I have been using it for nearly 50 years. When I miss the only thing I blame it on is ME not executing properly either mentally or physically.

It's like anything else. It can be learned. But like everything else...it takes using it to learn from both successes & failures. If one does not use it one will never learn how to use it properly.

Maybe we can get back on topic.
 
Lots of info

Thanks for all the input guys. Inside English is something I will work on and come to terms with my limitations when I use it. I believe many are not real good at using it and some that are don't give it much thought. I had 2 friends over to shoot on my new table last night and I noticed they missed way over half of their inside English shots, me included.
 
The word "missing" may be an accurate description, however........

The word "missing" may be an accurate description, however, it's essential to know whether you're "missing" on the left or right of the pocket (over-cutting or under-cutting).

Under-cutting is usually from pivoting to the inside or deceleration.

Over-cutting is usually from having a "tip target" too far to the inside (less is more).



Ak Guy said:
Thanks for all the input guys. Inside English is something I will work on and come to terms with my limitations when I use it. I believe many are not real good at using it and some that are don't give it much thought. I had 2 friends over to shoot on my new table last night and I noticed they missed way over half of their inside English shots, me included.
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Good to see we're back on topic.

Not to be a nit-picker, because CJ's advice is very useful for most players in most situations where they are applying inside english. A few points to consider though:

This advice works well on soft to medium speed shots when the player is bridging shorter than the effective pivot point, which is predominant imho.

On firmer shots, the effective pivot point gets shorter, so pivoting may lead to over cutting in those situations. The reduced throw at CB - OB contact also thins the cut on firmer shots.

Also, for players who bridge beyond the length of their effective pivot point, pivoting will also over cut.

For many players, some degree of slight parallel aiming off center, followed by a little pivot, could be a predictable way for them to play inside english more confidently on soft to medium speed shots with less than 3 feet between CB and OB.

On longer and more powerful IE shots, I much prefer a pure pivot mechanism, but this relies on more familiarity with the effective pivot point for that cue, speed of shot and table conditions (which effect swerve).

CJ Wiley said:
The word "missing" may be an accurate description, however, it's essential to know whether you're "missing" on the left or right of the pocket (over-cutting or under-cutting).

Under-cutting is usually from pivoting to the inside or deceleration.

Over-cutting is usually from having a "tip target" too far to the inside (less is more).
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Swiping

One more point to consider. If a player tends to swipe, say right to left when applying left english on an inside english pot, the swipe will increase the effective pivot point compared to a pure pivot with straight cue action. This is also a common habit of many players and increases the tendency to under cut (hit thick).

It's a good habit to cue in a straight line when applying english to improve consistency, otherwise variations in the degree of swiping provide yet another variable to take into account.

A HANDY TRICK using this effect is to be able to use swipe when normal bridging is obstructed due to a ball or a rail.

When forced into a shorter than usual bridge, for the left inside english described above, swiping left to right (reverse swipe), still applying left english, will prevent the tendency to under cut. If forced into a longer than usual bridge on the same shot, swipe right to left (natural swipe), to reduce the tendency to over cut. This way you can use the same alignment method for whatever bridge length the shot requires.

When forced to elevate, the left to right swipe (reverse swipe) can also help.

The opposite of all this works for outside english too btw.
 
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Colin Colenso said:
Good to see we're back on topic.

Not to be a nit-picker, because CJ's advice is very useful for most players in most situations where they are applying inside english. A few points to consider though:

This advice works well on soft to medium speed shots when the player is bridging shorter than the effective pivot point, which is predominant imho.

On firmer shots, the effective pivot point gets shorter, so pivoting may lead to over cutting in those situations. The reduced throw at CB - OB contact also thins the cut on firmer shots.

Also, for players who bridge beyond the length of their effective pivot point, pivoting will also over cut.

For many players, some degree of slight parallel aiming off center, followed by a little pivot, could be a predictable way for them to play inside english more confidently on soft to medium speed shots with less than 3 feet between CB and OB.

On longer and more powerful IE shots, I much prefer a pure pivot mechanism, but this relies on more familiarity with the effective pivot point for that cue, speed of shot and table conditions (which effect swerve).
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What if you have an LD shaft , CC?
Would FHE work better ? Aim center and then move the bridge hand to the inside of the cb ?
 
To funny

I feel much better now after reading all the comments on this thread, LOL. No wonder my inside English sucks. Geeze, I feel like a darn newbie with all this info, Now I have to find out what the heck a pivot point is. You guys are killing me. Ya got to keep it simple guys, my hard drive is 64 years old. I can never remember the PIN # for my new and first debit card my wife had me get and my grandkid's tutor me on my semi-smart phone.
 
I found that if I aim and pivot, then try to add just a bit more using front hand, I hit the object ball full in the face.

Just the slightest bit of front hand ruins it. It acts like I lined up using parallel with no pivot.

Standard maple shaft, ten or so inches pivot point.
 
JoeyInCali said:
What if you have an LD shaft , CC?
Would FHE work better ? Aim center and then move the bridge hand to the inside of the cb ?
Click to expand...

LD shafts means the effective pivot point is longer. Usually around 13-14 inches. So if you're bridge is longer than this, it will lead to a thinner cut, if shorter, a thicker cut. Hence, pivoting with a LD cue tends to lead to under cutting compared to the same aim and bridge length with a High Deflection cue.

FWIW: Traditional HD cues usually require awkwardly short bridge lengths to work well with Back Hand English.

I'm not up to speed on FHE, never really got my interest.
 
Ak Guy said:
I feel much better now after reading all the comments on this thread, LOL. No wonder my inside English sucks. Geeze, I feel like a darn newbie with all this info, Now I have to find out what the heck a pivot point is. You guys are killing me. Ya got to keep it simple guys, my hard drive is 64 years old. I can never remember the PIN # for my new and first debit card my wife had me get and my grandkid's tutor me on my semi-smart phone.
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Here's a video I did years ago AK Guy, showing the pivot and how Back Hand English works. A bit fuzzy but might give you something to try out next time you play some inside english.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERFTM8dbat0
 
Ak Guy:

Find the pivot point of your cue and you will start making shots you should have missed. Shots where you try to hit with no spin, but you accidentally swoop the cue.

If I've been away from the table for a few days, it may take three hours of solo practice to get my eye and arm pointing at the same target. Once that happens, I love shooting high inside follow shots using BHE. Five diamonds away, no problem.
 
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