Integrity, the missing ingredient .

There are plenty of people that would volunteer, or get the players to do it

one stroke said:
God forbid anyone expecting a pro pool player to govern himself like a PGA pro does ,

1
Click to expand...

Or a football team that gets in the Superbowl. Or a boxer, or a stock broker, or a banker, or a hockey player, or a basketball player or a politician.

It's a dishonest world, and with very little money in pool they could at least get referees. There are plenty of people that would volunteer, or get the players to do it themselves (although not while they're playing their own match).
 
CJ Wiley said:
Or a football team that gets in the Superbowl. Or a boxer, or a stock broker, or a banker, or a hockey player, or a basketball player or a politician.

It's a dishonest world, and with very little money in pool they could at least get referees. There are plenty of people that would volunteer, or get the players to do it themselves (although not while they're playing their own match).
Click to expand...



Oh Yea!

Let's have the players referee each others matches.

I can only imagine the "business" that could happen then.


Royce
 
CJ Wiley said:
Or a football team that gets in the Superbowl. Or a boxer, or a stock broker, or a banker, or a hockey player, or a basketball player or a politician.

It's a dishonest world, and with very little money in pool they could at least get referees. There are plenty of people that would volunteer, or get the players to do it themselves (although not while they're playing their own match).
Click to expand...

So your argument is because everyone else is doing it that makes it ok ,, you know I believe at one time you may have thought that , as much as I banter with you I believe or I hope the game you call the teacher has taught you better than that ,,


1
 
More well thought out and civil replies. I appreciate it.

Straightpool_99, it is a sad state of affairs. I don't want to knock anybody, but having the "Professional" players engage in less than ethical behavior is a potential deathblow to the sport.

Quick and decisive punishment is a necessity, I agree.
********************************************************************************************
(I drew a line so it would be obvious that the following is not directed at Straight Pool_99)

I personally feel that the rules can only be so precise, they can never be perfect. I really feel that a big part of this problem is not just the rules, but players acceptance of shady behavior in other aspects of the game. Bad sportsmanship is the default mode of tournament play, it seems. Even the most stand up players engage in some form of poor behavior.

The condoning of poor ethics is endemic to the pool world. If we did not look the other way when the losers among us engages in less than reputable actions, we would not have such a big problem now.

To me, this is a problem that we still need to address, in addition to rule changes. We need to get that skeleton out of the closet and buried for good. All that is required is for players to stand up call it like it is.

Let me share some more unpopular opinions.

Using deception to secure a more favorable bet is no better than being a con man. Dressing up in disguise to hustle the less skilled is not admirable, if anything, congratulate yourself on becoming both a con man and a thief.

If you see that some new player is being targeted by lets say, 2 players who pretend not to know each other, in order to get the mark to back one of them, so one can dump and they split the money, go tell the mark what they are doing. Better yet, call the police, I am sure there is a charge they can come up with.

That will no doubt anger some people. Good, I hope it makes them spitting mad. Maybe they will post here and show what kind of person they really are.

I know that what I wrote seems a little venomous, but I am not about to soften it out of respect to the very thing I am speaking up about.

I meant to thank the other posters as well, but I will do so in my next post.Sorry for being so wordy, I know it can be a little much.
 
Brian,
You are certainly to be commended for bringing these issues to light.
Hard and Fast Rules in other Sports have been the norm for decades.
So it should be in Pool & Billiards competition. The better players will
still win most of the time, and most of us realize that. Hard Times Sac
offers great weekly and monthly tournaments and your efforts are
appreciated, even though we don't always vocalize that appreciation.

I hope you can get the issues ironed out to your satisfaction.

Thank You for your concerns, Howard
 
here's the post I made about it over a month ago, does it look like I approve of it?

one stroke said:
So your argument is because everyone else is doing it that makes it ok ,, you know I believe at one time you may have thought that , as much as I banter with you I believe or I hope the game you call the teacher has taught you better than that ,,


1
Click to expand...

I haven't had any trouble with racking, here's the post I made about it over a month ago, does it look like I approve of it?

- 01-10-2015, 07:07 AM - I highly recommend Joe Tucker's video on racking. Joe found out about the vulnerability of the 9 Ball rack back in the 90s and made the video in an attempt to educate and protect players from skulduggery. The 10-Ball rack is also easy to manipulate, just in a different way, especially using "racking templates".

What Joe discovered in his research is the ONE-BALL NOT being froze is actually an advantage (we've been led to believe that having the one-ball not frozen is bad, when it's actually good - IF you know how to use this info to determine where to break from).

However, you can use the one-ball to create intentional gaps.

When you see Joe's video he will mention "gaps" quite often, although he won't show you how to create them. Joe's an honorable guy and didn't want to show people how to create an advantage, instead he shows what to look for to protect yourself from intentional manipulation when your opponent's racking.

I won't "spill the beans," I'll just say there's something called the "Forward Press," and the "Back Press." - to "load" a 9-Ball rack you press the one back, to "load" the 10-Ball rack you press the middle, back two balls forward. This creates a chain reaction within the rack and manipulates the balls on the other end.

Either way, if you see someone fiddling with the one-ball they are up to no good (also goes for pressing the back two balls playing 10-Ball). Watch some players very closely at TURNING STONE and you'll see exactly what I'm referring to.

This is one reason I don't like competing at 9-Ball as it's played now, it's become a "racking war". When I was competing full time we had a "gentleman's agreement" not to check the referee's rack (Oh, yeah, I forgot there are no more referees, do you now wonder why?) ;) . I recommend Joe's DVD - LEARN this technique or face the consequences!!! click this picture for more info on racking secrets - before it costs you another match


Joe Tucker introduced the art of reading racks in 1999 with his highly recommended and out of print book “Racking Secrets”. Now Joe comes to you via DVD and clearly explains and then demonstrates how this powerful knowledge (is utilized).

He starts off with 9 Ball and shows you how we all had it backwards. He shows why and how the wing balls do and don’t go. Shows you how to adjust your cue ball speed and placement according to how the balls are racked. He shows you how to make more and give up less 9 Balls on the break!!!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
one stroke said:
So your argument is because everyone else is doing it that makes it ok ,, you know I believe at one time you may have thought that , as much as I banter with you I believe or I hope the game you call the teacher has taught you better than that ,,


1
Click to expand...

When did he say it was ok?

C.J. is looking at solving the problem with a realistic solution imo, without climbing onto a soapbox looking down with a better than thou attitude, or by wishing the world was not as it is.


Btw those pga pros are not as honest as you think. I have heard some stories about some of their gambling before. There are stiff penalties and lots of people watching them in the big tournaments.
 
Last edited:
CJWiley, I am looking forward to the unveiling of your new game. I believe that you have a clear understanding of what it takes to pull off such a feat. I truly wish you well on this endeavor.

RBC, you make great point, one that Straight Pool_99 made as well. The need for consistent and strong enforcing of any rules. As much as I think the rules need to be more specific, the fact is that rack manipulation is already against the rules, but unless it is enforced it makes no difference.

DTL, what you suggest would be a huge improvement to 9 Ball, one that is desired by many, as evinced by jburkm002's post. How do we go about implementing those changes globally?

I have been toying with a new game as well, to replace 9 ball, but regardless of whether it is a new game or a new rule set, actually making it happen is a considerable challenge, one that I have spent a great deal of time thinking about, without a lot of success. Maybe CJ Wiley will lead the way on this, I really do think he has a great chance, given his past accomplishments.
 
Brian_Laflamme said:
Important Disclaimer
It is not my intention to ridicule, shame, blame, insult, belittle or demean anyone in particular with this thread. ​


The current controversy surrounding racking in 9 Ball has shown a very disheartening view into the minds of many pool players.

I have been reading up on this subject on the azbilliards forums,looking for a solution,because I am a TD and the current state of affairs makes running a tournament with integrity extremely difficult. A quick fix for now would seem to be magic rack,9 on the spot, racking done by a designated neutral party, inspecting the rack permitted, but players cannot request a re-rack.

What is so troubling is that many people seem to think cheating is acceptable, even admirable.

I will clarify exactly what I mean by cheating.


(A) If, while racking the balls for yourself, you intentionally manipulate the balls to create gaps to gain a competitive advantage breaking, you are cheating. Period.

(B) Studying a rack to spot gaps or any other information that can be used to gain a competitive advantage breaking is legal, even if you racked them yourself, provided you have not violated (A).


Just because many players currently violate (A), does not mean that players are not cheating, instead it just means that there is lots of cheating going on. This, contrary to what many think, is not an admirable characteristic for a sport to have.

Of course, the player who maintains their integrity is going to be at a serious disadvantage when playing someone who does not. This problem forms the basis for the slippery slope we are currently sliding down out of control, gaining speed every second. The end result is that everyone will be forced to cheat as well, if they want to have a chance. In the end, players will try to call it evolution of the game, a necessity or some other drivel, when in fact it is just cheating, plain and simple.

Obviously, the rules need improvement or outright change. Even so, saying don't hate the player, hate the game is in essence removing any requirement that players have any integrity or class.

It is too late in the game for individual players to resist the tide. Although this problem partially originated with players, I think the only ones who can change it are the people who run tournaments, along with the ruling bodies that sanction rules. Unfortunately, both have remained silent, for the most part.

Opinions in support, to the contrary or anywhere in between are welcome, but please think your posts all the way through and be civil.

I am not trying to get feedback on whether we should use magic racks, rack your own, loser racks, 9 ball or 1 ball on the spot, winner breaks/alternate breaks, Europeans vs. American methods, nor looking to hear any criticism about any specific player. There has already been many threads containing all the above and they have accomplished nothing, but to prove what a disorganized mess pool is.

Actually, more than anything, I posted this because I will not turn the other way now that I am fully aware of the magnitude of this problem, as a TD this is my way of shouldering the responsibility to deal with this problem and saying that the buck stops here. I will not have such a divisive issue take away from any future event I am involved in.

Again, I stress that this post is not intended for anyone in particular, despite what some may think. The few players I have spoken with about this issue, I have a great deal of respect for and I do understand that making a living playing pool is no easy task. I have no doubt that everyone would appreciate not having to deal with this issue any longer. I certainly do not care to single out players in any tournament I run, in fact I despise having to do so.
Click to expand...

Great post! Spot on.

Integrity is everything. This brief story may have been mentioned but just in case---
Bobby Jones, considered one of the best golfer of all time. once called a foul on himself that no one else was aware of. Afterwards everyone was congratulating him on his show of honesty and integrity when he got somewhat irritated. He then told everyone present it was like congratulating him for not robbing a bank. His integrity was such an integral part of him that he couldn't understand how anyone could even think about taking an unfair advantage. If this concept existed in pool the sport would not have anywhere close to the problems it is facing today and would not seem "sleazy" to potential sponsors.
 
I see Satori back on the attack with more not so subtle insults for me to enjoy, still no name though.

He is right that CJ did not say it was okay. Satori should know, since he is the one who implied that it was ok.

"Harmless cheating" he calls it. Once again, please tell us your name, Satori.

It is only fair that everybody who knows you hears what you have to say in this matter. It would give what you say a lot more credibility, as well.
 
Brian_Laflamme said:
I see Satori back on the attack with more not so subtle insults for me to enjoy, still no name though.

He is right that CJ did not say it was okay. Satori should know, since he is the one who implied that it was ok.

"Harmless cheating" he calls it. Once again, please tell us your name, Satori.

It is only fair that everybody who knows you hears what you have to say in this matter. It would give what you say a lot more credibility, as well.
Click to expand...

Where did I say it was ok? The harmless I wrote was in quotations meaning some of them might view it as harmless as one of us might view downloading pirated videos off the internet.

I personally feel it is a problem that needs solved but saying someone has questionable integrity only adds to the problem imo.
 
Last edited:
That is a great story, GaryB. Integrity should be expected, a given within the Pro community, not the other way around.

It has nothing to do with looking down or hoping that the world is something other than what it is, Satori. It is about trying to challenging everybody, including myself, to set a new standard, for all that come after us to enjoy.
 
We live in an unfair world, you say.

You sir, are behaving in a very cowardly manner, but that is to be expected, given the sentiments you have expressed so far.

If you think that I cannot find out who you are, you are wrong. As it stands now, you have already shown enough about yourself to make it obvious to all that what you say is of no consequence, no need for me to spend any effort unmasking you.

If that changes, I will take the time, trust me.
 
Why fix things?

What I find interesting is that most of the issues address 9-ball.

By definition, 9-ball is a slop game.
10-ball is a call game

There are lots of different games in pool. Just like in many other sports.

If people object to the racking and the breaking aspects of 9-ball, play a different game or I guess run your own event with some 'amended rules'. I don't think you can expect the world of pool to adopt your rules because they might believe in the 'aspects' of 9-ball.

Pattern racking - no point in having a rule that CANNOT be enforced. There is a lot of history on why many events use rack your own. Does anyone remember all the racking fiascos in previous events? Remember there is a difference between events and 'pro events' - so maybe pro events should go to 10-ball.

It is pretty much agreed that 9-ball is a broken game. But only at the highest level of play. I read about all the pattern racking a rack running. Ha - I know I can't do that and I don't many people that can.

Because Dennis O. Does it does not mean it is easy. Do what Dennis does - practice!

Mark Griffin
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top