IPT article in Details magazine on stands

[J.D. Dolan]

Details magazine

Before Kevin Trudeau hit the pool scene, pool in America was suffering, and the reasons are multi-faceted with a variety of opinions as to why.

When Kevin Trudeau's Vision was launched in Orlando at The King of the Hill a little over one year ago, it gave existing professional players hope for a future.

Pool's toughest critics here in the States come from within its own culture, and right after the very first IPT membership meeting, even after several million dollars were paid out to BCA Hall of Famers, American legends, and foreign pros, Trudeau's vision was doomed before it even got off the ground. The players were happy. The critics, though, were a constant.

In my heart of hearts, I believe Kevin Trudeau had good intentions and wanted elevate pool in America, and so what if he wanted to profit. His intention was to include the players in the profit as well. Little did he know how tough the American pool culture was.

Today, the future of the IPT is uncertain. I think that communication was a big problem with the IPT. From the get-go, the only form of getting the IPT message out there was via word of mouth and the Internet. The short one year of the IPT tour's existence, questions from the very IPT members themselves often went unanswered.

I think today, the critics are dancing the Teaberry Jig on the tombstone of the IPT. In fact, they were dancing the jig when they buried it, before it even got off the ground.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why the American media did not make any mention of the multi-million-dollar tournaments, but, hey, that's pool in America. The American media must believe that its audience would rather see hot dog-eating contests, I guess.

JAM

JAM, thanks as always for your thoughtful post.

I want to gag when I hear the word "vision" in relation to Kevin Trudeau. If you listen closely to the recordings of the players' meetings (as I have), you'll notice that all of the people who precede Kevin Trudeau at the podium mention his "vision" (one meeting contained eight references to his "vision"). Those references are as calculated as his Rolex watch, his French-cuffed shirts, and his frequent claims of success.

I interviewed dozens of players for this article, and I didn't talk to anybody who was happy about the collapse of the IPT, and I didn't see anybody dancing (jig or otherwise).

There's a big difference between critical thinking (thinking that involves the use of reason) and negative thinking (thinking that is simply negative regardless of the facts). Many people may have been leery of Trudeau from the start, and for good reason. It's difficult to look at Trudeau's history of multi-level marketing practices and conclude that he's an honest, stand-up guy.

I don't think the players are in any way at fault for this fiasco. They paid the $2000 entry fees, they followed the dress code, they showed up on time, and they played great. They carried themselves like the professionals they are. And they lent Trudeau their names and reputations.

The players (including the Hall of Famers) have about as much reason to be grateful to Trudeau as a school of fish has to be grateful to a fisherman who's thrown out a chum slick.

The American media ignored the IPT not because of the players but because of Trudeau. His brand of "business" has been well chronicled in the New York Times, the Washington Post, and elsewhere.

J.D.

 

[JAM]

JAM, thanks as always for your thoughtful post.

I want to gag when I hear the word "vision" in relation to Kevin Trudeau. If you listen closely to the recordings of the players' meetings (as I have), you'll notice that all of the people who precede Kevin Trudeau at the podium mention his "vision" (one meeting contained eight references to his "vision"). Those references are as calculated as his Rolex watch, his French-cuffed shirts, and his frequent claims of success.

I really did enjoy reading your article, J.D. Dolan. It was well done!

I actually transcribed "Kevin Trudeau Speaks," the CD that was given away in Orlando about the "vision." In fact, I told Kevin Trudeau before I departed Orlando that I was going to transcribe his speech, since that is my business, and send it to him via e-mail as a small token of my appreciation for the King of the Hill event in Orlando. He thanked me and said he'd be looking forward to it.

I dubbed the digital recording, transcribed it, and then e-mailed the transcript to the POC for the IPT, which was the tournament director. Seven months later, I spoke to one of Kevin Trudeau's right-hand men ("Men in Black") about the transcript that I sent. The next day, the IPT staffperson relayed to me that the transcript that I took the time to produce was never forwarded to Kevin Trudeau by the POC. The communication of the IPT was, and still is, horrible, and I think it contributed to the IPT problems, big time.

I interviewed dozens of players for this article, and I didn't talk to anybody who was happy about the collapse of the IPT, and I didn't see anybody dancing (jig or otherwise).

There's a big difference between critical thinking (thinking that involves the use of reason) and negative thinking (thinking that is simply negative regardless of the facts). Many people may have been leery of Trudeau from the start, and for good reason. It's difficult to look at Trudeau's history of multi-level marketing practices and conclude that he's an honest, stand-up guy.

I understand. That is why I was impressed with your article because I think you covered the IPT debacle very objectively.

I don't think the players are in any way at fault for this fiasco. They paid the $2000 entry fees, they followed the dress code, they showed up on time. They carried themselves like the professionals they are.

The players (including the Hall of Famers) have about as much reason to be grateful to Trudeau as a school of fish has to be grateful to a fisherman who's thrown out a chum slick.

The American media ignored the IPT not because of the players but because of Trudeau. His brand of "business" has been chronicled in the New York Times, the Washington Post, and elsewhere.

You are right in that the players did give it their all. They followed the IPT tournament trail until it came to an abrupt halt, and today, there are some pool players who want the IPT to continue, in whatever form.

I think a quick search and review of this IPT forum would provide quite a few opinions about Kevin Trudeau. He has encountered controversy relating to his business ventures in the past, but he did put his money where his mouth was when the IPT "vision" came to the fore, to the tune of at least $10 million by my estimation.

The American media has never taken a liking to pool, as it has other sports, and this, unfortunately for us pool enthusiasts in America, is the way it has been for decades, long before Kevin Trudeau came with the vision for an IPT.

The IPT, as any newly founded organization, did make mistakes along the way, especially when it came to COMMUNICATION, but if and when the IPT dust settles, I think, as your article suggests, it will be Kevin Trudeau who will be stuck behind the proverbial 8-ball as it pertains to monies expended.

American pool players will continue to attend pool tournaments, hoping to win, place, or show, so that they can break even, the same as before. The American pool culture will continue to beat itself up, and the existing lot of American professionl players will eventually become extinct.

JAM

 

[jimmyg]

My first Az post!

Thank you J.D. Dolan. You've been privy to many different perspectives because of the experience of writing your article. Your journalistic method of thinking also provides you with a more rational, analytical view than those that were personally and emotionally involved, as well as the mere observers.

Most, if not all, of the IPT players wanted to believe KT so badly that even though that "little voice" in their head did indeed speak to them, they went along with his overblown, inflated "vision" and chose to believe and defend his every lie. I don't think they can, or should, be faulted. After all, pool, and those that love it, have always been "left out in the cold" when compared to all other sports. And KT, by his huckster nature and background, played to them perfectly. Unrealistic promises of stardom, financial rewards and acceptance were exactly what they needed and wanted to hear.

Those that were not personally, or directly, involved found it easier to doubt and question his statements, promises and methods. Human nature makes it quite natural for many of those personally and directly involved with the IPT to criticize, misunderstand and mistrust the motives of the many critics, creating a sharp divide within the pool community.

Even today, that divide is ever evident. Many already burned IPT players continue to defend KT and would jump thru hoops if he were to rebirth the IPT. Whereas many in the pool community not directly involved with the IPT wish that KT would disappear and have nothing further to do with the sport. I suppose that those differences will persist even after KT discontinues making the promised back payments.

Below is my very first post on AZ, which was not recieved with the same sincerity, passion and concern for pool that it was idelivered with.

Thank you.

PS. My understanding is that the Ho Family, is experiencing an internal power struggle. Was KT speaking with the "right" Ho faction?

Jim

"Pool has always needed a saviour, someone with a way to change the image of shady pool rooms and pool hustlers. Legitimate tours, decent prize money and a respectable image, something closer to golf, tennis or even baseball would bring out the big corporate money and put pool into the mainstream. Maybe college teams, just like tennis or football with scholarship money available to gifted, hard working kids and eventual entry into the Olympic games. Great dream, and probably doable somewhere down the road with the right people.

Now, don't get me wrong I am all for any forward progress for this game that I still play and love, and I do wish that I believed the IPT was that venue.

But, lets face it, in order for the IPT, or any other organization to make pool that successful it must be led by someone, or a group, that truly has pool as their number one interest, someone with integrity, respectability and a business model that does not resemble a giant pryamid scheme. I don't think that Kevin Trudeau is even close to being that person, nor do I believe that his vision of pool's future is even close to that ideal. It's not hard to do a Google search of KT and come up with information on Federal, State, and SEC investigations, felony convictions, bannings from being able to conduct business in several states.

And while I do hope that I am wrong and Mr. Trudeau's intentions are sincere, I still can't see how he can succeed with his current business model, and a televised program that currently resembles, in my opinion, a pool informercial . I don't think that anyone can deny that the current qualifying system certainly has that pryamid scheme flavor to it.
Sorry that my first post involves such a controversal topic, but macguy is pretty much right on the money, especially when it comes to allegations of credit card fraudulent billing practices regarding Natural Cures. There is a website where individuals can post complaints about various companies, if you go to [ and do a search for Kevin Trudeau and Natural cures, there are well over a hundred complaints of this nature that will come up. More than a coincidence.

Again, I really wish all you ITPers and the Tour the best of success, but keep your eye on the ball."

 

[jay helfert]

I think the first sentences of the article speaks volumes: When infomercial king and convicted felon Kevin Trudeau launched the International Pool Tour, he promised its players stardom, riches, and legitimacy. Now the tour has collapsed, the players are owed millions, and the question is: Will Trudeau end up behind the eight ball?

Before Kevin Trudeau hit the pool scene, pool in America was suffering, and the reasons are multi-faceted with a variety of opinions as to why.

When Kevin Trudeau's Vision was launched in Orlando at The King of the Hill a little over one year ago, it gave existing professional players hope for a future.

Pool's toughest critics here in the States come from within its own culture, and right after the very first IPT membership meeting, even after several million dollars were paid out to BCA Hall of Famers, American legends, and foreign pros, Trudeau's vision was doomed before it even got off the ground. The players were happy. The critics, though, were a constant.

In my heart of hearts, I believe Kevin Trudeau had good intentions and wanted elevate pool in America, and so what if he wanted to profit. His intention was to include the players in the profit as well. Little did he know how tough the American pool culture was.

Today, the future of the IPT is uncertain. I think that communication was a big problem with the IPT. From the get-go, the only form of getting the IPT message out there was via word of mouth and the Internet. The short one year of the IPT tour's existence, questions from the very IPT members themselves often went unanswered.

I think today, the critics are dancing the Teaberry Jig on the tombstone of the IPT. In fact, they were dancing the jig when they buried it, before it even got off the ground.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why the American media did not make any mention of the multi-million-dollar tournaments, but, hey, that's pool in America. The American media must believe that its audience would rather see hot dog-eating contests, I guess.

The IPT players pocketed some dough following the IPT tournament trail, and the latest check received by IPT members acknowledges that there are monies still owed for the Reno tournament. The biggest loser to date, though, is Kevin Trudeau, and if the IPT is, in fact, dead, I will not dance the Teaberry Jig with the rest of the critics. The American pool culture critics are blinded by hatred and negativity, the same hatred and negativity that existed before Kevin Trudeau entered the pool scene. We've come full circle, folks! JMHO, FWIW!

JAM

Jam,

With all due respect, the "critics" did not cause the demise of the IPT. Kevin Trudeau did!

 

[J.D. Dolan]

Details magazine

You are right in that the players did give it their all. They followed the IPT tournament trail until it came to an abrupt halt, and today, there are some pool players who want the IPT to continue, in whatever form.

I think a quick search and review of this IPT forum would provide quite a few opinions about Kevin Trudeau. He has encountered controversy relating to his business ventures in the past, but he did put his money where his mouth was when the IPT "vision" came to the fore, to the tune of at least $10 million by my estimation.

The American media has never taken a liking to pool, as it has other sports, and this, unfortunately for us pool enthusiasts in America, is the way it has been for decades, long before Kevin Trudeau came with the vision for an IPT.

The IPT, as any newly founded organization, did make mistakes along the way, especially when it came to COMMUNICATION, but if and when the IPT dust settles, I think, as your article suggests, it will be Kevin Trudeau who will be stuck behind the proverbial 8-ball as it pertains to monies expended.

American pool players will continue to attend pool tournaments, hoping to win, place, or show, so that they can break even, the same as before. The American pool culture will continue to beat itself up, and the existing lot of American professionl players will eventually become extinct.

JAM

I agree with you that the players gave it their all.

But I don't for a minute believe the ten million dollar figure that Trudeau tosses around. As of last month, neither the Venetian nor the Grand Sierra Resort had been paid by the IPT. (In addition, he exaggerated the amount of money he spent on catering). I have no idea if the various production companies have been paid (Trudeau wouldn't give me Jon Denny's phone number). And obviously the players are owed a great deal of money.

On top of that, I have no way of calculating the money the IPT brought in--and I'm not just referring to the $2000 qualifiers or the IPT-branded equipment, etc. Every time an IPT event was on television, Trudeau and his book Natural Cures and his website NaturalCures.com got a great deal of exposure. If you think about the IPT coverage as a colorful informercial for Trudeau and his schemes, you might come up with a different number for the amount of money it generated (or lost).

Actually, the American media used to love pool, and it got equal coverage with other major sports. I have newspapers from the '20s and '30s with front-page headlines about Greenleaf's victories. But pool in this country died out after WWII, with the expansion of the suburbs.

I think part of the problem with pool now is the type of coverage we give it. (Think about ESPN's dopey pocket-cam.) The IPT coverage (to my mind anyway) only added to the problem. Can you imagine anything more cliched than a fog machine, the players facing off like boxers, the announcer doing that lettttttts ruuuuuuumble routine?

I wish some producer would keep a camera on the player's stroke, and have the commentators analyze the stroke; I'd also like to see high-quality replays of the trajectory of the cue ball and the intricacies of the position play involved. I'd much rather see this than hear the comentators argue about which shot THEY would have taken.

I think pool will survive the IPT's collapse. Corey Deuel and Gabe Owen have put together an exhibition tour, and Cliff Joyner has put out a one pocket DVD. Tony Fargo's at work on a book, and so is Charlie Bryant. Smart moves, in my opinion.

And maybe some honest person will come along (some day) and return pool to its rightful place in the sports world.

J.D.

 

[J.D. Dolan]

Details magazine

Thank you J.D. Dolan. You've been privy to many different perspectives because of the experience of writing your article. Your journalistic method of thinking also provides you with a more rational, analytical view than those that were personally and emotionally involved, as well as the mere observers.

Most, if not all, of the IPT players wanted to believe KT so badly that even though that "little voice" in their head did indeed speak to them, they went along with his overblown, inflated "vision" and chose to believe and defend his every lie. I don't think they can, or should, be faulted. After all, pool, and those that love it, have always been "left out in the cold" when compared to all other sports. And KT, by his huckster nature and background, played to them perfectly. Unrealistic promises of stardom, financial rewards and acceptance were exactly what they needed and wanted to hear.

Those that were not personally, or directly, involved found it easier to doubt and question his statements, promises and methods. Human nature makes it quite natural for many of those personally and directly involved with the IPT to criticize, misunderstand and mistrust the motives of the many critics, creating a sharp divide within the pool community.

Even today, that divide is ever evident. Many already burned IPT players continue to defend KT and would jump thru hoops if he were to rebirth the IPT. Whereas many in the pool community not directly involved with the IPT wish that KT would disappear and have nothing further to do with the sport. I suppose that those differences will persist even after KT discontinues making the promised back payments.

Below is my very first post on AZ, which was not recieved with the same sincerity, passion and concern for pool that it was idelivered with.

Thank you.

PS. My understanding is that the Ho Family, is experiencing an internal power struggle. Was KT speaking with the "right" Ho faction?

Jim

"Pool has always needed a saviour, someone with a way to change the image of shady pool rooms and pool hustlers. Legitimate tours, decent prize money and a respectable image, something closer to golf, tennis or even baseball would bring out the big corporate money and put pool into the mainstream. Maybe college teams, just like tennis or football with scholarship money available to gifted, hard working kids and eventual entry into the Olympic games. Great dream, and probably doable somewhere down the road with the right people.

Now, don't get me wrong I am all for any forward progress for this game that I still play and love, and I do wish that I believed the IPT was that venue.

But, lets face it, in order for the IPT, or any other organization to make pool that successful it must be led by someone, or a group, that truly has pool as their number one interest, someone with integrity, respectability and a business model that does not resemble a giant pryamid scheme. I don't think that Kevin Trudeau is even close to being that person, nor do I believe that his vision of pool's future is even close to that ideal. It's not hard to do a Google search of KT and come up with information on Federal, State, and SEC investigations, felony convictions, bannings from being able to conduct business in several states.

And while I do hope that I am wrong and Mr. Trudeau's intentions are sincere, I still can't see how he can succeed with his current business model, and a televised program that currently resembles, in my opinion, a pool informercial . I don't think that anyone can deny that the current qualifying system certainly has that pryamid scheme flavor to it.
Sorry that my first post involves such a controversal topic, but macguy is pretty much right on the money, especially when it comes to allegations of credit card fraudulent billing practices regarding Natural Cures. There is a website where individuals can post complaints about various companies, if you go to [ and do a search for Kevin Trudeau and Natural cures, there are well over a hundred complaints of this nature that will come up. More than a coincidence.

Again, I really wish all you ITPers and the Tour the best of success, but keep your eye on the ball."

You were right.

J.D.

 

[JAM]

Jam,

With all due respect, the "critics" did not cause the demise of the IPT. Kevin Trudeau did!

Jay, I do not think that the "critics" caused the demise of the IPT.

I do believe that there are "critics" within the American pool culture that existed long before the IPT. Many of THESE critics blame the pool players themselves for pool as a sport not elevating in the States. I do not agree with this school of thought.

The American pool industry members belong to the BCA (Billiards Congress of America), and there is a BCA Hall of Fame which admits pool greats from around the world, but I wish there was more effort exerted for elevating pool as a sport in America for professional players, American professional players.

America has turned its back on professional pool players, and IMHO, this trend is not changing. Rather, it is a trend which continues to plague pool in the United States, again, long before the IPT came to the fore. You, Jay, were recently in the Philippines. Look at the difference between the two countries when it comes to pool culture. Philippines embraces pool and all of its players, but in America, the "critics" do not share the same school of thought.

Pool in America, no matter how much you dress it up or how many millions of dollars are spent, seems to have one tire stuck in the sand.

JAM

 

[jay helfert]

Jay, I do not think that the "critics" caused the demise of the IPT.

I do believe that there are "critics" within the American pool culture that existed long before the IPT. Many of THESE critics blame the pool players themselves for pool as a sport not elevating in the States. I do not agree with this school of thought.

The American pool industry members belong to the BCA (Billiards Congress of America), and there is a BCA Hall of Fame which admits pool greats from around the world, but I wish there was more effort exerted for elevating pool as a sport in America for professional players, American professional players.

America has turned its back on professional pool players, and IMHO, this trend is not changing. Rather, it is a trend which continues to plague pool in the United States, again, long before the IPT came to the fore. You, Jay, were recently in the Philippines. Look at the difference between the two countries when it comes to pool culture. Philippines embraces pool and all of its players, but in America, the "critics" do not share the same school of thought.

Pool in America, no matter how much you dress it up or how many millions of dollars are spent, seems to have one tire stuck in the sand.

JAM

Part of the problem is the way pool is presented on television in this country. I refer you to J.D. Dolan's previous post.

In Asia, it is primetime LIVE for hours every day. Full length matches featuring the world's best players. What we get here is a condensed version
of some tournament played weeks or months before. With poor direction and camera work thrown in. I don't want to get into the commentary, but suffice to say, it could be a lot better. The women play great, but they are not the best players in this country.

One day, there will be a good pool show on television and audiences will love it. That's my prediction. And the whole landscape of Pool in America may change forever, just like it did for Poker with the "hole cam" innovation.

 

[JAM]

...One day, there will be a good pool show on television and audiences will love it. That's my prediction. And the whole landscape of Pool in America may change forever, just like it did for Poker with the "hole cam" innovation.

I like your style and the way you think. I hope me and mine will still be alive when it does happen!

JAM

 

[cuetique]

Trudeau NEVER had pure intentions. NEVER. He wanted to "hype and flip" the IPT to a sucker-buyer before the bills came due. He never planned to fund it personally, and did not care who ultimately got stuck with the tab. He overplayed his hand, and overestimated his own legitimacy. He had too big an ego to realize he is the kind of pariah that no legitimate business will ally itself with in any kind of sponsorship deal. It was dead out of the blocks, and no amount of dreamy-eyed wishful thinking could ever have changed that.

He has never done anything for the benefit of others, in fact, quite the opposite. There is nothing in the whole IPT fiasco that could possibly be construed as magnanimity, honesty or sincerity on KT's part. Nothing.

KT behind the 8-ball? Good. It's about time he got run down by a speeding karma.

 

[jay helfert]

Trudeau NEVER had pure intentions. NEVER. He wanted to "hype and flip" the IPT to a sucker-buyer before the bills came due. He never planned to fund it personally, and did not care who ultimately got stuck with the tab. He overplayed his hand, and overestimated his own legitimacy. He had too big an ego to realize he is the kind of pariah that no legitimate business will ally itself with in any kind of sponsorship deal. It was dead out of the blocks, and no amount of dreamy-eyed wishful thinking could ever have changed that.

He has never done anything for the benefit of others, in fact, quite the opposite. There is nothing in the whole IPT fiasco that could possibly be construed as magnanimity, honesty or sincerity on KT's part. Nothing.

KT behind the 8-ball? Good. It's about time he got run down by a speeding karma.

Another accurate assessment.

 

[bud green]

Part of the problem is the way pool is presented on television in this country. I refer you to J.D. Dolan's previous post.

In Asia, it is primetime LIVE for hours every day. Full length matches featuring the world's best players. What we get here is a condensed version
of some tournament played weeks or months before. With poor direction and camera work thrown in. I don't want to get into the commentary, but suffice to say, it could be a lot better. The women play great, but they are not the best players in this country.

One day, there will be a good pool show on television and audiences will love it. That's my prediction. And the whole landscape of Pool in America may change forever, just like it did for Poker with the "hole cam" innovation.

On Eurosport.com, they're already talking how Ding Junhui's success in snooker has already made snooker one of the more popular sports for kids in China; Ding was said to be approaching the fame of Yao Ming due to snooker being televised LIVE with a Chinese prodigy on display.

Televise exciting matches and produce it the right way, who knows, maybe another "Color of Money" resurgence could happen here. ESPN and the debacle that is the IPT ain't going to do it.

I'm sorry, but KT is looking like nothing other than a false prophet and a major d**chebag to boot. Guaranteed money for years!! Whatever... he needs his ass kicked at this point...

 

[Fleece3]

I think the first sentences of the article speaks volumes: When infomercial king and convicted felon Kevin Trudeau launched the International Pool Tour, he promised its players stardom, riches, and legitimacy. Now the tour has collapsed, the players are owed millions, and the question is: Will Trudeau end up behind the eight ball?

Before Kevin Trudeau hit the pool scene, pool in America was suffering, and the reasons are multi-faceted with a variety of opinions as to why.

When Kevin Trudeau's Vision was launched in Orlando at The King of the Hill a little over one year ago, it gave existing professional players hope for a future.

Pool's toughest critics here in the States come from within its own culture, and right after the very first IPT membership meeting, even after several million dollars were paid out to BCA Hall of Famers, American legends, and foreign pros, Trudeau's vision was doomed before it even got off the ground. The players were happy. The critics, though, were a constant.

In my heart of hearts, I believe Kevin Trudeau had good intentions and wanted elevate pool in America, and so what if he wanted to profit. His intention was to include the players in the profit as well. Little did he know how tough the American pool culture was.

Today, the future of the IPT is uncertain. I think that communication was a big problem with the IPT. From the get-go, the only form of getting the IPT message out there was via word of mouth and the Internet. The short one year of the IPT tour's existence, questions from the very IPT members themselves often went unanswered.

I think today, the critics are dancing the Teaberry Jig on the tombstone of the IPT. In fact, they were dancing the jig when they buried it, before it even got off the ground.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why the American media did not make any mention of the multi-million-dollar tournaments, but, hey, that's pool in America. The American media must believe that its audience would rather see hot dog-eating contests, I guess.

The IPT players pocketed some dough following the IPT tournament trail, and the latest check received by IPT members acknowledges that there are monies still owed for the Reno tournament. The biggest loser to date, though, is Kevin Trudeau, and if the IPT is, in fact, dead, I will not dance the Teaberry Jig with the rest of the critics. The American pool culture critics are blinded by hatred and negativity, the same hatred and negativity that existed before Kevin Trudeau entered the pool scene. We've come full circle, folks! JMHO, FWIW!

JAM

TAP TAP TAP. JAM

 

[TheOne]

You, Jay, were recently in the Philippines. Look at the difference between the two countries when it comes to pool culture. Philippines embraces pool and all of its players, but in America, the "critics" do not share the same school of thought.

Pool in America, no matter how much you dress it up or how many millions of dollars are spent, seems to have one tire stuck in the sand.

JAM

Interesting point JAM but don't you think the Philippines has it's problems too? We often hear about rival camps and conflicts between various Filipino stables for want of a better term.

In addition just this week the Asian Pool Tour has signed a deal with Guinness, one of the biggest global brands that has ever taken a punt on pool.

What happens next, two of the greatest and most famous players in Asia refuse to drink at the bar with everyone else. I wonder if Guinness is regretting the night before having woken up in bed with pool and a nasty hangover! I wouldn't be surprised if they're searching through the fine print right now to see if they can call a cab and sneak out the back door while Pool is still asleep!

 

[jediphil]

The thing can work

i agree that K.T. is an unpleasant wanker and the more i watch the repeats with his smarmy face the more unpleasant he looks and i didnt qualify for the IPT so im not owed money so god knows how you lot feel.

BUT

the prize money involved was astronomical

in the philipines the average wage is $600 per annum, the world english 8ball tourney pays about $20,000 to the winner (thats where daz appleton ect are from)

the winnings on british tour are $2000 a euro event about $10,000 even the world 9 ball only paid $100k

my point is that in reality i think most players would have turned up with less money on the line

if the winnings had been 1/3 of what was promised a think most people would have gone with it

i have no doubt money was made TV rights, advertising, table sales and balls and tight racks and chalk and and and you get the point.

how much do these touneys cost to put on. There seems to be a whole range of experience and money men on this site. how much did KT want to sell for

we all know the situation we all have views on what went wrong and who is to blame but it was a good idea it just didnt work THIS TIME !!

i am an estate agent i can play pool good but not brilliant i am not famous and most of you wouldnt know me if i bumped into you but what i can see is 6 touneys a year with the right promotion with TV coverage but with fair and reasonable prize funds (ie $100k to the winner and down from there ) can work

any thoughts maybe im just clutching at straws

 

[JAM]

Interesting point JAM but don't you think the Philippines has its problems too? We often hear about rival camps and conflicts between various Filipino stables, for want of a better term.

I hadn't heard of a conflict in rival camps in the Philippines.

My personal observation of the Filipino players I know and/or have seen at various events is that they seem to me kind of like a family. For a while, I thought Efren Reyes, Bustie, Santos, et al., had put a little distance between themselves and Jose Parica. I was told hearsay by an American stakehorse who knows all of them very well that the reason for this is that Jose Parica doesn't know how to count money when it comes to paying his expenses when they are traveling as a group.

Let somebody win an event, and by the time you cut up the monies between the backers, the debtors, and any other things that may pop up when traveling the EXPENSIVE tournament trail, people that win do get funny with the money, to include Jose Parica. [Sorry, Jose.]

Having stated that, though, I had always had the general impression that the Filipino players, especially when they are here in the States, seem to flock together, hang together, eat together, room together, and play together. I know that Alex Pagulayan, as an example, will not gamble with Efren Reyes, or at least that is what he stated to me a few years ago. It is like there is an unspoken agreement that some Filipino players won't gamble with each other because of their comradery, I guess.

The point I was trying to make, pertaining to "critics," is that in the Philippines, the Filipino pool culture is very different than here in the States, IMHO. Some members of American pool culture, as evidenced by posts in this forum, don't think too highly of American pool players; in some instances, blaming the American pool players themselves for pool's unpopularity here in the States.

Though I have never been to the Philippines, the Filipino pool culture seems to embrace its players, holding them in a high regard. Ask anyone in the Philippines who Efren Reyes is, and they not only know who he is, but they like him a lot.

Ask anyone in the United States who Earl Strickland is, and you'll either get a blank stare because they never heard of him, or in the alternative, if it is a member of the American pool culture, they will proceed to rip Earl Strickland to shreds, and it's not just Earl Strickland. Some American pool folk think pool players are "not even on the same level as a garbage man," and that's an edited quote.

In addition just this week the Asian Pool Tour has signed a deal with Guinness, one of the biggest global brands that has ever taken a punt on pool.

What happens next, two of the greatest and most famous players in Asia refuse to drink at the bar with everyone else.

Bustie enjoys a beer or two every now and then, maybe at the conclusion of a tournament, and so does Alex Pagulayan, but most of the Filipino players I know do not even drink alcohol, at least when they are in competition.

To be sure, though, the majority of American players I know are usually seen in the pits with a bottle of water on their table. There are a few exceptions to this -- actually, maybe only one. I could elaborate and write a dissertation about the role that alcohol and/or substance abuse has had in the American pool culture, in times gone by and still today, but in an effort to avoid getting trolled and slammed, I think I will stop here.

JAM

 

[jay helfert]

i agree that K.T. is an unpleasant wanker and the more i watch the repeats with his smarmy face the more unpleasant he looks and i didnt qualify for the IPT so im not owed money so god knows how you lot feel.

BUT

the prize money involved was astronomical

in the philipines the average wage is $600 per annum, the world english 8ball tourney pays about $20,000 to the winner (thats where daz appleton ect are from)

the winnings on british tour are $2000 a euro event about $10,000 even the world 9 ball only paid $100k

my point is that in reality i think most players would have turned up with less money on the line

if the winnings had been 1/3 of what was promised a think most people would have gone with it

i have no doubt money was made TV rights, advertising, table sales and balls and tight racks and chalk and and and you get the point.

how much do these touneys cost to put on. There seems to be a whole range of experience and money men on this site. how much did KT want to sell for

we all know the situation we all have views on what went wrong and who is to blame but it was a good idea it just didnt work THIS TIME !!

i am an estate agent i can play pool good but not brilliant i am not famous and most of you wouldnt know me if i bumped into you but what i can see is 6 touneys a year with the right promotion with TV coverage but with fair and reasonable prize funds (ie $100k to the winner and down from there ) can work

any thoughts maybe im just clutching at straws

All good thoughts, but one problem remains. The money must come from somewhere. Idle promises do not a tour make.

 

[TheOne]

I hadn't heard of a conflict in rival camps in the Philippines.

My personal observation of the Filipino players I know and/or have seen at various events is that they seem to me kind of like a family. For a while, I thought Efren Reyes, Bustie, Santos, et al., had put a little distance between themselves and Jose Parica. I was told hearsay by an American stakehorse who knows all of them very well that the reason for this is that Jose Parica doesn't know how to count money when it comes to paying his expenses when they are traveling as a group.

Let somebody win an event, and by the time you cut up the monies between the backers, the debtors, and any other things that may pop up when traveling the EXPENSIVE tournament trail, people that win do get funny with the money, to include Jose Parica. [Sorry, Jose.]

Having stated that, though, I had always had the general impression that the Filipino players, especially when they are here in the States, seem to flock together, hang together, eat together, room together, and play together. I know that Alex Pagulayan, as an example, will not gamble with Efren Reyes, or at least that is what he stated to me a few years ago. It is like there is an unspoken agreement that some Filipino players won't gamble with each other because of their comradery, I guess.

The point I was trying to make, pertaining to "critics," is that in the Philippines, the Filipino pool culture is very different than here in the States, IMHO. Some members of American pool culture, as evidenced by posts in this forum, don't think too highly of American pool players; in some instances, blaming the American pool players themselves for pool's unpopularity here in the States.

Though I have never been to the Philippines, the Filipino pool culture seems to embrace its players, holding them in a high regard. Ask anyone in the Philippines who Efren Reyes is, and they not only know who he is, but they like him a lot.

Ask anyone in the United States who Earl Strickland is, and you'll either get a blank stare because they never heard of him, or in the alternative, if it is a member of the American pool culture, they will proceed to rip Earl Strickland to shreds, and it's not just Earl Strickland. Some American pool folk think pool players are "not even on the same level as a garbage man," and that's an edited quote.



Bustie enjoys a beer or two every now and then, maybe at the conclusion of a tournament, and so does Alex Pagulayan, but most of the Filipino players I know do not even drink alcohol, at least when they are in competition.

To be sure, though, the majority of American players I know are usually seen in the pits with a bottle of water on their table. There are a few exceptions to this -- actually, maybe only one. I could elaborate and write a dissertation about the role that alcohol and/or substance abuse has had in the American pool culture, in times gone by and still today, but in an effort to avoid getting trolled and slammed, I think I will stop here.

JAM

Hi JAM, I didn't mean literally about the drinking at the bar bit! I was cryptically referring to the reported boycott by Efren and Busta.

I think if you saw American players playing abroad you would see much of the commoradory you describe. My point is that back home in the Philippines I suspect (like many other countries such as the UK for example) they have their own fair share of pool politics to contend with.

What we can probably both agree on is that the places where there isn't any rival tours and politics such as the Euro Tour pool seems to be gaining popularity and attracting sponsorship.

I don't think it's entirely the players fault or the management but both have to take some responsibility. IMO Pool needs a strong outstanding leader with great marketing and commercial experience and the players and everyone else within the industry need to start pulling in the same direction. Of course we also need to cut carbon emissions and create world peace, not sure which of the 3 will happen first?

 

[JAM]

Hi JAM, I didn't mean literally about the drinking at the bar bit! I was cryptically referring to the reported boycott by Efren and Busta.

Ah, I see!

I think if you saw American players playing abroad you would see much of the commoradory you describe. My point is that back home in the Philippines I suspect (like many other countries such as the UK for example) they have their own fair share of pool politics to contend with.

What we can probably both agree on is that the places where there isn't any rival tours and politics such as the Euro Tour pool seems to be gaining popularity and attracting sponsorship.

I don't think it's entirely the players fault or the management, but both have to take some responsibility. IMO, pool needs a strong outstanding leader with great marketing and commercial experience, and the players and everyone else within the industry need to start pulling in the same direction....

I think those are some good ideas.

The "outstanding leader with great marketing and commercial experience" must be someone that ALL -- I repeat, ALL -- players will respect and trust to do the right thing. There have been some Piped Pipers in the past, speaking about the States, whose leadership led the way for some players to encounter discriminatory stop signs and impossible hurdles to jump, resulting in only a select few players benefiting from the Pied Piper's leadership. Discrimination at its finest, especially as it pertains to players over 40.

JAM

 

[macguy]

IMHO. Some members of American pool culture, as evidenced by posts in this forum, don't think too highly of American pool players; in some instances, blaming the American pool players themselves for pool's unpopularity here in the States.



JAM

I didn't know pool was unpopular. I was under the impression that millions of people play and enjoy the game on a dally basis. It is very popular. Using the professional as a barometer to judge the popularity of pool makes no sense. Just because someone can't make a living playing a game, as would be the case with 99.9% of all activities period has no bearing. Although there are some, not many people make a living fishing however it is a huge industry and always growing.

I could say the same about any art or craft people enjoy, collecting, gardening, painting what ever, all multi billion dollar industries but not professions. Pool is the same, the lack of ones ability to make a living at it means nothing. I don't like to respond to you but I can't help trying to put it into perspective a little. I understand your bitterness, it would be nice to make a living just doing what you want but sometimes it just doesn't work like that. I really don't understand your constant knocking of America. I have played in Europe a lot. My wife and I used to spend two to four months there every year.

I doubt there are very many rich European pool players. The sport is on TV more there then here but again, this is the same quality television that show reruns of The Odd Couple and Levern & Shirley in prime time. They don't have the distractions we have here and will watch almost anything. Give them the choices we have and 160 channels and they would not be watching pool either. It is apples to oranges. Pool is alive and well and a tremendously popular sport in the US regardless what you think. It just is not a spectator sport, people like to play it more then watch it.