IPT article in Details magazine on stands

jay helfert said:
All good thoughts, but one problem remains. The money must come from somewhere. Idle promises do not a tour make.

there is money coming in there must be, my point is that the money going out was far too much.

someone on this site must know "roughly" how much the fixed costs are as well as how much income streams can bring in

if we know these figures we can calculate what prize fund can be paid

the problem with the ipt it seems was that KT decided the prize fund before he knew the other figures.

the out column was far bigger thatn the in column and it had no need to be

are you telling me you would not enter if the purse was 25% of Reno
of course you would

the income generated from qualifiers was probally insignificant compared to other income streams. in fact i would think if it was $1000 to enter we would have had far greater particapation meaning the income could have been similar.

what i am essentially saying is everything worked except the maths. now peolple on this site seem to know everything about everything :D so who can take this further but with the ability to add up.
 
JAM said:
Ah, I see! :p



I think those are some good ideas. :)

The "outstanding leader with great marketing and commercial experience" must be someone that ALL -- I repeat, ALL -- players will respect and trust to do the right thing. There have been some Piped Pipers in the past, speaking about the States, whose leadership led the way for some players to encounter discriminatory stop signs and impossible hurdles to jump, resulting in only a select few players benefiting from the Pied Piper's leadership. Discrimination at its finest, especially as it pertains to players over 40.

JAM

This person has to be someone who's more concerned about the sport than anything else.
The sport has to trump all self serving issues for it to move forward. The UPA has had allot of these 'feelings' but not someone who will always put the game before their needs or ____________.
It's funny, its so simple, have the right person who embraces the game, and the sport will slowly evolve. Its like raising a child, day by day, week by week, year by year till they mature. By not operating with this type of coveting concern, the integrity of the person (and their motives) behind the operation is exposed and the the sport flounders.
 
macguy said:
I have played in Europe a lot. My wife and I used to spend two to four months there every year.

I doubt there are very many rich European pool players. The sport is on TV more there then here but again, this is the same quality television that show reruns of The Odd Couple and Levern & Shirley in prime time. They don't have the distractions we have here and will watch almost anything. Give them the choices we have and 160 channels and they would not be watching pool either. It is apples to oranges. Pool is alive and well and a tremendously popular sport in the US regardless what you think. It just is not a spectator sport, people like to play it more then watch it.

I agree with much of what you say but I really can't see how you can say pool is not a spectator sport? Can you clarify this, do you mean just in America? Only a few months ago 50m people watched Efren play Tony C in the WPC, let me say that again 50 MILLION!

Only last week 4000 people paid to watch the snooker masters final live in London, let me say that again 4000 PEOPLE PAID TO WATCH IT LIVE!

In addition approx 100 Million people in China watched Ding on TV, let me say that again, 100 MILLION PEOPLE! :eek:


I agree that America isn't that far behind Europe, it probably has bigger and better tournaments it's just lost its way a little since the IPT (god bless it) came along!
 
jediphil said:
there is money coming in there must be, my point is that the money going out was far too much.

someone on this site must know "roughly" how much the fixed costs are as well as how much income streams can bring in

if we know these figures we can calculate what prize fund can be paid

the problem with the ipt it seems was that KT decided the prize fund before he knew the other figures.

the out column was far bigger thatn the in column and it had no need to be

are you telling me you would not enter if the purse was 25% of Reno
of course you would

the income generated from qualifiers was probally insignificant compared to other income streams. in fact i would think if it was $1000 to enter we would have had far greater particapation meaning the income could have been similar.

what i am essentially saying is everything worked except the maths. now peolple on this site seem to know everything about everything :D so who can take this further but with the ability to add up.

I think the problem is people where only willing to pay the crazy entry fees because of the crazy prize money on offer. If the prize money was slashed the entry fee would also have to be. In the end it's the "model" the IPT used that failed, eg qualifiers funding a tour. It doesn't matter what scale you use you probably still need added money. :confused:
 
TheOne said:
...but I really can't see how you can say pool is not a spectator sport? Can you clarify this, do you mean just in America? Only a few months ago 50m people watched Efren play Tony C in the WPC, let me say that again 50 MILLION!....

As is some times customary in the forum world, written words are often misinterpreted, sometimes to intentionally cause strife and other times because a poster may not have read the thread in its entirety before responding.

Let me try to clarify: PROFESSIONAL pool is not popular as a sport, when compared to NFL, MLB, NBA, and PGA, in the United States

Pool is popular in the Philippines as a professional sport and, as you so have stated correctly, TheOne, in other countries.

Pool as a professional sport in the U.S. has one tire stuck in the mud.

JAM
 
I mean, after all, we are posting on a forum entitled the INTERNATIONAL POOL TOUR, a so-called "professional" pool tour.

To be clear, I believe that what most people are posting about on this particular IPT forum is PROFESSIONAL pool, not social shooters, league players, and bar bangers.

JAM
 
JAM said:
As is some times customary in the forum world, written words are often misinterpreted, sometimes to intentionally cause strife and other times because a poster may not have read the thread in its entirety before responding.

Let me try to clarify: PROFESSIONAL pool is not popular as a sport, when compared to NFL, MLB, NBA, and PGA, in the United States

Pool is popular in the Philippines as a professional sport and, as you so have stated correctly, TheOne, in other countries.

Pool as a professional sport in the U.S. has one tire stuck in the mud.

JAM

I'm not sure why you shouted at me as I wasn't replying to your post but thanks for your clarification of what you think that person meant! :p

We all know what the current status of pool is in America, my argument is against the people who seem to accept that billiards is NOT NOW, and NEVER will be a spectator sport popular on TV. To me it should matter what country we are talking about but then again maybe it is an American issue, people often argue that the reason Americans don't like proper football (eg soccer) is that generally Americans don't have the patience for such sports. They seem to like fast scoring games such as basketball etc.
 
JAM said:
I mean, after all, we are posting on a forum entitled the INTERNATIONAL POOL TOUR, a so-called "professional" pool tour.

To be clear, I believe that what most people are posting about on this particular IPT forum is PROFESSIONAL pool, not social shooters, league players, and bar bangers.

JAM

You are right in the context of this forum, but I was referring to the statement "pool's unpopularity here in the States". Pool is very popular and in reality the pro players are revered within the subculture of the sport. Unfortunately they are not known outside the sport. It would be nice to see a player doing commercials but you just don't see it. There is no real reason they can't. In most cases the game is what is being showcased and not the player, I.E. the Miz commercial.

When he did that commercial the caption at the bottom said, "Steve Mizerak pool player". Not four times US open Champion. It could have been me and have been just as effective. The trick shot was the gimmick of the commercial and not Steve. That is why I don't understand pool not being used in more commercials. The point of a commercial is to capture the attention of the viewer in the few seconds they have and pool has the ability when choreographed right it do that.

As a result the player would, like Steve Mizerak, become known to the public opening other avenues for them and maybe even the sport in general. I think there are a lot of boats being missed when it comes to the sport.
 
TheOne said:
I agree with much of what you say but I really can't see how you can say pool is not a spectator sport? Can you clarify this, do you mean just in America? Only a few months ago 50m people watched Efren play Tony C in the WPC, let me say that again 50 MILLION!

Only last week 4000 people paid to watch the snooker masters final live in London, let me say that again 4000 PEOPLE PAID TO WATCH IT LIVE!

In addition approx 100 Million people in China watched Ding on TV, let me say that again, 100 MILLION PEOPLE! :eek:


I agree that America isn't that far behind Europe, it probably has bigger and better tournaments it's just lost its way a little since the IPT (god bless it) came along!


I am just referring to attending tournaments and people can hardly be made to sit still to watch even one complete match. Most tournaments can't draw flies, It just does not command the average persons attention for very long. I have to take your word for the TV numbers and if that is the case I may be wrong but I don't think I am. Except for the real hard core fan, most people find it only mildly interesting for a very brief time and they have seen enough. It is hard to build a fan base when that is the case. I don't think it is a very good spectator sport.
 
JAM said:
I think the first sentences of the article speaks volumes: When infomercial king and convicted felon Kevin Trudeau launched the International Pool Tour, he promised its players stardom, riches, and legitimacy. Now the tour has collapsed, the players are owed millions, and the question is: Will Trudeau end up behind the eight ball?

Before Kevin Trudeau hit the pool scene, pool in America was suffering, and the reasons are multi-faceted with a variety of opinions as to why.

When Kevin Trudeau's Vision was launched in Orlando at The King of the Hill a little over one year ago, it gave existing professional players hope for a future.

Pool's toughest critics here in the States come from within its own culture, and right after the very first IPT membership meeting, even after several million dollars were paid out to BCA Hall of Famers, American legends, and foreign pros, Trudeau's vision was doomed before it even got off the ground. The players were happy. The critics, though, were a constant.

In my heart of hearts, I believe Kevin Trudeau had good intentions and wanted elevate pool in America, and so what if he wanted to profit. His intention was to include the players in the profit as well. Little did he know how tough the American pool culture was.

Today, the future of the IPT is uncertain. I think that communication was a big problem with the IPT. From the get-go, the only form of getting the IPT message out there was via word of mouth and the Internet. The short one year of the IPT tour's existence, questions from the very IPT members themselves often went unanswered.

I think today, the critics are dancing the Teaberry Jig on the tombstone of the IPT. In fact, they were dancing the jig when they buried it, before it even got off the ground.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why the American media did not make any mention of the multi-million-dollar tournaments, but, hey, that's pool in America. The American media must believe that its audience would rather see hot dog-eating contests, I guess.

The IPT players pocketed some dough following the IPT tournament trail, and the latest check received by IPT members acknowledges that there are monies still owed for the Reno tournament. The biggest loser to date, though, is Kevin Trudeau, and if the IPT is, in fact, dead, I will not dance the Teaberry Jig with the rest of the critics. The American pool culture critics are blinded by hatred and negativity, the same hatred and negativity that existed before Kevin Trudeau entered the pool scene. We've come full circle, folks! JMHO, FWIW!

JAM


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macguy said:
I am just referring to attending tournaments and people can hardly be made to sit still to watch even one complete match. Most tournaments can't draw flies, It just does not command the average persons attention for very long. I have to take your word for the TV numbers and if that is the case I may be wrong but I don't think I am. Except for the real hard core fan, most people find it only mildly interesting for a very brief time and they have seen enough. It is hard to build a fan base when that is the case. I don't think it is a very good spectator sport.

"And now that the tournament has switched to Wembley Arena, Dott reckons it will be like playing in front of a football crowd.

The venue has the capacity to house 4500 fans - the biggest audience in snooker - and Dott said: "It was like playing in front of a football crowd at the old Wembley Conference Centre but the Arena is even bigger."


This still blows my mind, 4500 people paying maybe $30 each to watch 2 guys hit small balls around on a 12ft x 6ft table. If you see some of the crowds in Asia watching pool I'm sure you would also be surprised. Maybe it's just your own preference or a correct analysis of American preference but I can assure you it's not the case everywhere. The only reason pool isn't a more successful global spectator sport is it's lack direction and money.
 
Why do people (not me) watch golf on TV? Talk about a slow game.

Seems like there is more potential drama in pool.

With golf, you get to take "all the shots you need". Make a mistake in pool and you might not get another chance at the table. Plus, the guy with the stick in his hands can stay in stroke. The guy in the chair beter get in stroke fast if he gets another turn.

In golf, there's a club for evey shot... hmm, used to be one cue. Still, it's amaizing the range of strokes we have to use with one cue.

The majority of the public has no idea of the effect of deflection, swerve, or throw. Aim and shoot, that's all there is, right?

But we know better. Raise the butt a little, hit it off center, and you are basically guessing where the cue ball is going. Then you've got stun, draw and follow. So many shots.

Good camera work and more time could help illustrate some of this to the bangers.

Would be nice if the players actually used the mikes they are given, to describe what's going through their minds.
 
Details magazine

JohnnyP said:
Why do people (not me) watch golf on TV? Talk about a slow game.

Seems like there is more potential drama in pool.

With golf, you get to take "all the shots you need". Make a mistake in pool and you might not get another chance at the table. Plus, the guy with the stick in his hands can stay in stroke. The guy in the chair beter get in stroke fast if he gets another turn.

In golf, there's a club for evey shot... hmm, used to be one cue. Still, it's amaizing the range of strokes we have to use with one cue.

The majority of the public has no idea of the effect of deflection, swerve, or throw. Aim and shoot, that's all there is, right?

But we know better. Raise the butt a little, hit it off center, and you are basically guessing where the cue ball is going. Then you've got stun, draw and follow. So many shots.

Good camera work and more time could help illustrate some of this to the bangers.

Would be nice if the players actually used the mikes they are given, to describe what's going through their minds.

I agree. That's why I'm amazed to hear people who are in any way impressed with the IPT's glitzy television coverage. They had the standard talking head (Matt Somebody, I think), and they had the standard self-involved pro (Sigel, usually). And they were too busy hauling out visual cliches from professional wrestling, the World Series of Poker, and boxing.

In golf coverage, you get interesting and accurate analysis of the player's stroke. We really need that in pool. I've talked to Pat Fleming (of Accu-Stats) about this a few times, and I hope he'll at least try it.

J.D.
 
TheOne said:
"And now that the tournament has switched to Wembley Arena, Dott reckons it will be like playing in front of a football crowd.

The venue has the capacity to house 4500 fans - the biggest audience in snooker - and Dott said: "It was like playing in front of a football crowd at the old Wembley Conference Centre but the Arena is even bigger."


This still blows my mind, 4500 people paying maybe $30 each to watch 2 guys hit small balls around on a 12ft x 6ft table. If you see some of the crowds in Asia watching pool I'm sure you would also be surprised. Maybe it's just your own preference or a correct analysis of American preference but I can assure you it's not the case everywhere. The only reason pool isn't a more successful global spectator sport is it's lack direction and money.

I was at the Crucible (sp?) in England and it was sold out a month in advance for all days. The only reason I could get a ticket was they will resell seats because they know there are always empty seats. Some people only come to watch certain players. The one thing I noticed was they had betting windows. If you could bet on pool it would increase it's popularity, but you are right, they can defiantly sell out Snooker
 
Hi ,

the issue of how to make pool a successfull spectator sport is an issue in everey country the game is played in (except Asia) It is funny to read this for at least about the last 20 years.... Here in Europe the try very hard hard to copy what I call the snooker "method".- To show pool as a gentlemens sport etc etc. Total bull in my opinion.. Why ?? Because that is not pool, period.

The facts are:

1. all professional tour initiatives that have been run by players or have been largely influenced by players have failed .... Due to greedyness, mismanagement, bad mouthing what so ever

2. Pool in general only draws pool players as spectators... up to now

Instead of trying to press pool into an image of a gentlemen sport that never can be fulfilled, why not use the subculture aspects of pool to make it popular...??

Poker may be a big thing in the US, here in Europe it wasn't ...until now. Now you can watch poker live in every other sports channel here. Why because the betting industry is behind it, and every average Joe thinks he can do it too and its all just a bit of luck needed to win the pot. ...And its gambling at its best... High stakes lots of money and characters to look at.

If pool would be presented as it is, With lots of great characters, money gambling, the road stories behind it etc, it might have a much better chance to draw spectators other than us addicts.... Pool does not have to be a role model sport. It is not about sports. Its about ability, guts, reckless shooting, money, shabby bars, gambling ....

Imagine a money match between Keith (with his style and his antics his hard childhood etc etc) against Earl (with his unsurpassed temper :-) for some large money. All of this with the players are presented with backgrounds, the good and the bad stories etc... Kiek boxers.. Then people could start identifying with these guys..You either love or hate them but at least you will be in ones camp at least...

To make it successfull the normal people have to indentify with the players and take sides. The game itself with its beauty stays unnoticed to an outsider because he can not appreciate how hard it is to play position, run a rack etc. For him it looks easy if it is played professional...

@JAM
Hope to meet you and Keith at VF 2007 !!!

Markus
 
J.D. Dolan said:
I agree. That's why I'm amazed to hear people who are in any way impressed with the IPT's glitzy television coverage. They had the standard talking head (Matt Somebody, I think), and they had the standard self-involved pro (Sigel, usually). And they were too busy hauling out visual cliches from professional wrestling, the World Series of Poker, and boxing.

In golf coverage, you get interesting and accurate analysis of the player's stroke. We really need that in pool. I've talked to Pat Fleming (of Accu-Stats) about this a few times, and I hope he'll at least try it.

J.D.

I think golf has a perceived difficulty even when it isn't. I am on the edge of my seat when a guy is putting a hanger, they all look hard to me. Pool is made to look so easy to the average person it has no drama at all. No one ever misses a hanger. The main reason pool doesn't make it is because it is more of an exhibition sport. People like to see the game played for a short time and will find it interesting but could care less who wins.

The outcomes are meaningless. You could show a match played ten years ago and it will have the same value as one player yesterday. Kind of like you or I watching a rodeo on ESPN. I have no idea who these guys are or when it took place, I will watch for a few minutes and find it interesting then click.
 
macguy said:
I was at the Crucible (sp?) in England and it was sold out a month in advance for all days. The only reason I could get a ticket was they will resell seats because they know there are always empty seats. Some people only come to watch certain players. The one thing I noticed was they had betting windows. If you could bet on pool it would increase it's popularity, but you are right, they can defiantly sell out Snooker

I know and I only use it as an example in this context because basically it's balls on a table and two guys playing, from a spectator point of view it's much the same. My only concern is that pool, or 9 ball as it has become just isn't interesting enough. Racks IMO are TOO QUICK, many layouts are the same, and most people don't play and therefore can't relate to the game.
 
i get what your all saying but what about darts

they have two different "tours" they have political fallout players move from one to the other for money one tour is far superier to the other which is easy to tell. it doesnt look that hard most people have tried it, ie all the problems pool suffers HOWEVER

both world champs which are 11 months away are now fully sold out all days

the crowd is about 1000 + and very vocal

both champs have prime time UK viewing watched by millions ( me included)

one tour PDC has 6/7 tournaments live all days and sold out crowds

i have no idea why i love watching it the suspense is amazing just like pool but it works
 
i210mfu said:
...Imagine a money match between Keith (with his style and his antics his hard childhood etc etc) against Earl (with his unsurpassed temper :-) for some large money. All of this with the players are presented with backgrounds, the good and the bad stories etc... Kiek boxers.. Then people could start identifying with these guys..You either love or hate them but at least you will be in ones camp at least...

Keith and Earl have competed often in the past, but it was during an era when the two-shot/push-out rules were in effect for the game of 9-ball. Keith said that the East Coast guys couldn't beat the West Coast guys, and so they had to change the rules. He said when the rules were changed, 9-ball became more a game of luck, than a game of skill.

I personally have only seen Earl and Keith match up once in a tournament setting, and it was the finals of a Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour event in Rochester, New York. Somebody recorded the match, and I saw it for sale on eBay.

It was standing room only, and the place was packed. Sitting on the rail, I was a Nervous Nellie when the match commenced, but right from the get-go, Keith wasn't going to allow Earl to get upset. When Earl first arrived, he was a man on a mission, brandishing his game face, his piercing blue eyes fixated on the designated finals table.

Keith, on the other hand, was loose as a goose and, shall we say, feeling no pain. He was waiting for Earl, holding his one and only cue stick, looking like a tribal spear. The crowd was happy.

A few games into it, Earl Strickland looked as if he was actually enjoying himself. He and Keith both exchanged some funny quips. It was actually hard fought to the finish, though, and Keith gave Earl a good fight. He was one game away from clipping Earl's wings. Keith met up with Earl on the double hill, and it was Keith's break, not one of his strong suits. :o

The crowd was on their feet. Keith broke the balls and pocketed a couple, and then old whitey decided to take a turn for the worse and scratched. Earl couldn't get to the table quick enough to run out the remaining balls, and in the end, it was the mighty Pearl who triumphed.

Diana Hoppe was there and took some excellent group shots of the whole event at Classic Billiards in Rochester, New York. I think they can be viewed on AzBilliards Picture Section on the Main Page of the website. Those were some good times when I really did enjoy attending pool events.

Valley Forge is still up in the air with Keith, Marcus, but if we do go, I will most definitely see you at the action table pit! :D

Picture of Earl Strickland, Diana Hoppe, and Keith McCready below. :)

JAM
 

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I like your new picture - know you love your dog but this picture is better. And for those who haven't met Jennie --- the smile is Jennie. Hope to see you both on the tournament trail again!!
 
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