IPT Slow To Pay
- Thread starter jay helfert
- Start date
Jimmy M. said:
I mean that in my opinion you would win the bet you suggested in your post from 9:18pm yesterday, which was in response to a post from Scott W.
You said 'if I had proof', which is why I added the link to Deno's member page which shows that account active yesterday evening, as possible proof that he has seen the thread, at least he was on the site.
I also said that I believe there are people who would tell Deno about any thread that he should pay attention to, this being one such example.
All-in-all I agree 100% with your position Jimmy, that Deno has, in all likelyhood, read this thread.
My last comment was simply a comment to a like-minded (in this case) poster, and it was a sarcastic comment about 'hiding on the Internet', which is of course quite silly as the system is open, searchable, and archivable. I should have added an eye-rolling emoticon, my error.
So, to answer your question directly, I have no problem, I was simply supporting your position ... obviously not very well. I hope this clears things up.
Respectfully,
Dave
Last edited:
Open Letter To All
April 4, 2006
I just returned from my P.O. Box. There is NO Check there today, eleven days after Deno personally told me that the checks were being mailed out.
I have come to the realization that I have been burned for $5,500 by one of the most famous con men of this era. There is no check, there was no check and there won't be any check!
For your information, after this post began on March 29, Deno called me the following day (March 30) to rip me in a profanity laced diatribe that included legal threats and other nonsense. I calmly informed him that if I am proved wrong and a check arrives, I will go on this forum and publicly admit my mistake. He said this delay was normal and all part of their corporate accounting procedures. And he went on to add that the mail coming out of Chicago was notoriously slow.
Deno informed me on this phone call that this money was NOT prize money, but a "gift" from KT. I responded that they were slow in paying their "gifts". He did not like my response. And replied with the liberal use of the F word. My feeling is that any rational person would view this posted money as prize money, not a gift. He went on to add that I would be receiving a nasty e-mail from him the next day. That never came either. I just can't seem to depend on Deno for anything.
As for Mr. Deno, a public warning to you. If you ever should see me, you better run. I did not like the way you spoke to me the other day, and you were quite fortunate you were a safe distance away. And as for your hero KT. He is not my hero and he will need to call his bodyguard if I ever see him. My preferred course of action would be to turn him upside down and shake him, keeping whatever falls out of his pockets.
Maybe you are amused by all this. Trust me when I tell you, I am not the least bit amused. I do not like being burned by anyone, and have been known to respond quite aggressively. Owning and running four poolroooms is a little different than selling crap on infomercials.
At this point in time, even if I were to somehow receive a check, it would not placate me from all the aggravation I have gone through with the IPT.
I may be out $4,600 (what I've laid out so far), but let this be a warning to those who are buying what KT is selling here. Everything is not always as it appears, and it may be quite unlike the beautiful picture he has tried to paint.
I may make a new post on this IPT portion of the forum regarding the upcoming Qualifier schedule. I do plan to send this e-mail to the billiard community at large, hopefully as a warning to others who might be planning to contribute to the IPT.
April 4, 2006
I just returned from my P.O. Box. There is NO Check there today, eleven days after Deno personally told me that the checks were being mailed out.
I have come to the realization that I have been burned for $5,500 by one of the most famous con men of this era. There is no check, there was no check and there won't be any check!
For your information, after this post began on March 29, Deno called me the following day (March 30) to rip me in a profanity laced diatribe that included legal threats and other nonsense. I calmly informed him that if I am proved wrong and a check arrives, I will go on this forum and publicly admit my mistake. He said this delay was normal and all part of their corporate accounting procedures. And he went on to add that the mail coming out of Chicago was notoriously slow.
Deno informed me on this phone call that this money was NOT prize money, but a "gift" from KT. I responded that they were slow in paying their "gifts". He did not like my response. And replied with the liberal use of the F word. My feeling is that any rational person would view this posted money as prize money, not a gift. He went on to add that I would be receiving a nasty e-mail from him the next day. That never came either. I just can't seem to depend on Deno for anything.
As for Mr. Deno, a public warning to you. If you ever should see me, you better run. I did not like the way you spoke to me the other day, and you were quite fortunate you were a safe distance away. And as for your hero KT. He is not my hero and he will need to call his bodyguard if I ever see him. My preferred course of action would be to turn him upside down and shake him, keeping whatever falls out of his pockets.
Maybe you are amused by all this. Trust me when I tell you, I am not the least bit amused. I do not like being burned by anyone, and have been known to respond quite aggressively. Owning and running four poolroooms is a little different than selling crap on infomercials.
At this point in time, even if I were to somehow receive a check, it would not placate me from all the aggravation I have gone through with the IPT.
I may be out $4,600 (what I've laid out so far), but let this be a warning to those who are buying what KT is selling here. Everything is not always as it appears, and it may be quite unlike the beautiful picture he has tried to paint.
I may make a new post on this IPT portion of the forum regarding the upcoming Qualifier schedule. I do plan to send this e-mail to the billiard community at large, hopefully as a warning to others who might be planning to contribute to the IPT.
jay helfert said:
Sorry to hear that Jay, this is quite worrying. I have to admit that I have been coming around to the idea of playing in the qualifiers even though I feel the IPT should be making revenue from TV, DVDs, Sponsorship and other Merchandise as opposed to the players.
I'm now starting to wonder if quiting my day job at the end of the year again should maybe put on hold lol!
It seems to me that the best course of action at present is to stay neutral (unless youve been burnt like Jay of course) and see what happens. Anyone that thinks the IPT is not trying to fund itself from qualifiers is a born fool, if this was the case they would never have had BOTH the open events as the first two events! This was not the original plan and I know it upset many current IPT players who had made plans for the tournament in January.
It makes you think though, how sad would it be if the IPT did collapse tomorrow, think pool would enter a state of depression never seen before!
Jay, while posting your opinion on the IPT is perfectly acceptable, I do think that threatening Deno and Kevin Trudeau in a public forum is a little much. I know that threatening them in this public forum is more than enough.
The IPT has made it pretty clear that they do not respond to internet conversations, so you have been free for some time to say anything you want with no one to respond to anything you say.
I do know that Deno is very well respected in the billiards industry and I seriously doubt that Trudeau and Deno are sitting around their office thinking that they accomplished their grand mission of screwing you out of $5500.
How about we let this thing sit for a day or two and see if the check comes in. From conversations I have had with a couple players, I know that some players are still waiting on checks and I also know that some players have received checks.
Mike
The IPT has made it pretty clear that they do not respond to internet conversations, so you have been free for some time to say anything you want with no one to respond to anything you say.
I do know that Deno is very well respected in the billiards industry and I seriously doubt that Trudeau and Deno are sitting around their office thinking that they accomplished their grand mission of screwing you out of $5500.
How about we let this thing sit for a day or two and see if the check comes in. From conversations I have had with a couple players, I know that some players are still waiting on checks and I also know that some players have received checks.
Mike
jay helfert said:
I consider myself a fairly "rational person". However, I have to say I share Deno's viewpoint regarding the bonuses. I do not consider the bonuses "prize money" at all...but rather as "bonuses", since they have always been referred to as bonuses in the articles I've read.jay helfert said:
There was only one understood "prize" in these qualifiers...the 2006 IPT Tour card. I'm sure each participant signed up for these qualifiers knowing that this was the only reward. Either they won the card, or nothing at all. That is what was understood. However, KT decided to make things interesting and offer bonuses for consecutive racks run and 8's made on the break. I'm sure all the players were pleasantly surprised with these added incentives. However, I'm sure that none of the players would have withdrawn their participation from the qualifiers if KT never offered these bonuses in the first place, or said "just kidding" regarding the bonuses.
Nevertheless, I still think it's a shame that it's taking so long for these bonuses to get paid out to the players. Although it's not nearly as bad as being late paying out legitimate prize money, it's still pretty bad. But remember, these are bonuses..."gifts" if you want to think of it that way. But prize money?...not really. Remember, KT didn't have to offer these bonuses. But since he did, he should still pay up.
Just one guy's opinion on the matter. I'm actually confident that you'll receive your check Jay...and I hope this whole matter smooths itself over.
jsp said:I consider myself a fairly "rational person". However, I have to say I share Deno's viewpoint regarding the bonuses. I do not consider the bonuses "prize money" at all...but rather as "bonuses", since they have always been referred to as bonuses in the articles I've read.
There was only one understood "prize" in these qualifiers...the 2006 IPT Tour card. I'm sure each participant signed up for these qualifiers knowing that this was the only reward. Either they won the card, or nothing at all. That is what was understood. However, KT decided to make things interesting and offer bonuses for consecutive racks run and 8's made on the break. I'm sure all the players were pleasantly surprised with these added incentives. However, I'm sure that none of the players would have withdrawn their participation from the qualifiers if KT never offered these bonuses in the first place, or said "just kidding" regarding the bonuses.
Nevertheless, I still think it's a shame that it's taking so long for these bonuses to get paid out to the players. Although it's not nearly as bad as being late paying out legitimate prize money, it's still pretty bad. But remember, these are bonuses..."gifts" if you want to think of it that way. But prize money?...not really. Remember, KT didn't have to offer these bonuses. But since he did, he should still pay up.
Just one guy's opinion on the matter. I'm actually confident that you'll receive your check Jay...and I hope this whole matter smooths itself over.
You make a very good point but you might have missed THE point.
DA said check was "in the mail" some time ago.
Check has NOT arrived.
I concur with your opinion about JH getting paid.....it shouldn't be this stressfull for those directly involved.
Word of advice for DA.....disclosure is the best course of action when the wheels fall off.
I feel obligated to mention that Deno isn't the only one with a good reputation in the billiard community. Everyone on the West Coast knows Jay Helfert and everyone who knows him also knows that he's been a long time contributor to the game. I can't really hold it against him too much for being angry about not getting paid because, while $5500 might not be a large amount of money in the grand scheme of things, pretty much all of us would be fairly pissed off if we felt like we were getting screwed out of that amount. I don't think that the delay is the major fault of the IPT at this point. I think that the fact that they told him that "the check was in the mail", when it obviously wasn't, is more of an issue. Also, the fact that Deno, great reputation and all, would call Jay to curse him out for making this public is a bit disturbing. If the debt was paid and/or Jay didn't feel like he was getting the run-around, I don't think any of us would know about this right now.
Hopefully he'll get paid soon and all of the IPT cheerleaders can say "I told you so", all of the IPT detractors can say "took long enough", and that's the last we'll all hear of it.
Hopefully he'll get paid soon and all of the IPT cheerleaders can say "I told you so", all of the IPT detractors can say "took long enough", and that's the last we'll all hear of it.
But lets keep in mind that all we have heard is one side of the story.
The other side has made it clear that they don't and won't respond to things on internet message boards.
Mike
The other side has made it clear that they don't and won't respond to things on internet message boards.
Mike
AzHousePro said:
One side of the story is enough. IF Jay had his check, then there would be no story. That is simple enough. Jay, when & if you get your check please copy it & post it here so we can all see the date when it was written. Also, copy the envelope so we can all see when it is post marked. I bought something from England recently & received it in 6 days. Slow mail from Chicago is a lame excuse. KT has millions so $5500 is like $50 to a normal guy. You shouldn't need 3 accountants & 6 forms to process what Jay has coming to him.
Pool wants to be as big as poker but NEVER will. Take a look at poker, you know what happens when a player wins? They get paid IMMEDIATELY. For the World Series of Poker, they bring the money out on the table before the final showdown. I have a friend that won over $220,000 in poker tournaments last year. $50,000 at one tournament he got paid immediately in casino chips, went to the cage & cashed them. The other $170,000 he won in Aruba & the check was waiting for him when he got home. All the IPT players should request the same thing. One of the first things I learned in pool is POST THE $$$$. KT has a track record, let me rephrase that...KT has a negative track record & should be doing everything to make sure that this IPT is squeaky clean. If he can run such a complex business as his nutrition paid commercial business, then surely he can run 6 pool tournaments. And if Deno called Jay threatening him & cursing him out, I would call that very unprofessional.
Too bad Jay didn't tape record that conversation & all the IPT lovers could add that to the KT tapes that they speak about & listen to over & over again. AZMike, does KT pay his advertising bill with you on time? Just curious.
I have known about this for some time and I would like to say in Jay's credit I know he held off from mentioning this on this forum for quite some time, he gave the IPT the benifit of the doubt. I still however seriously doubt that he won't get paid and it was some bad cock up. I don't think its fair that players are made to wait though but I appreciate the security concerns in having large amounts of cash in a pool hall.
It still amazes me how many companies underestimate the value of good customer service and communication. Ok so the IPT no longer reply to threads in the forums, probably a wise move. However a while ago I got a PM from Deno explaining an issue I had raised in a thread on this forum. He was very polite and I replied asking him if I could send him an email as I had a couple of questions regarding the qualifiers. He said "sure no problem" so I sent him an email. I waited a week or two and I didn't get a reply. He's obviously a busy man and he may have not noticed my email amongst the hundreds I'm sure he gets daily. So I sent him a PM politely asking him if he would reply, many weeks later I have had no response.
I'm sure people will say he's busy and he doesn't have time for forums etc, however he did have time to a) contact me first and b) login to the forum almost daily to make posts in his ask the pro's section.
Craig <-- expecting rude phone call! 
It still amazes me how many companies underestimate the value of good customer service and communication. Ok so the IPT no longer reply to threads in the forums, probably a wise move. However a while ago I got a PM from Deno explaining an issue I had raised in a thread on this forum. He was very polite and I replied asking him if I could send him an email as I had a couple of questions regarding the qualifiers. He said "sure no problem" so I sent him an email. I waited a week or two and I didn't get a reply. He's obviously a busy man and he may have not noticed my email amongst the hundreds I'm sure he gets daily. So I sent him a PM politely asking him if he would reply, many weeks later I have had no response.
I'm sure people will say he's busy and he doesn't have time for forums etc, however he did have time to a) contact me first and b) login to the forum almost daily to make posts in his ask the pro's section.
Craig <-- expecting rude phone call!
Gabber
Banned
Lets not forget that the 'guaranteed $100,000 MINIMUM' for 2007 would come from KT personally making up the difference! ie, if you only win $20,000 in prize money, KT will write you a check [ a gift!!!!!] for $80,000.
[ If you have to wait a month or more for $5,000, then the $80,000 might have to be collected by your grandchildren after you are dead.LOL]
Deno may well be respected in the industry but KT isnt! KT and his run-around/delay on paying up is making Deno- who is only doing his job- look bad.
Like one poster said, they said the check was in the mail .....and it wasnt.
Gabber........cant pay or wont pay???????????? You would think that $5,000 would be peanuts for a zillionaire .You would also think that they would be extra quick to pay Jay , just to shut him up!
How many are still waiting to be paid, I wonder. Anybody know?
[ If you have to wait a month or more for $5,000, then the $80,000 might have to be collected by your grandchildren after you are dead.LOL]
Deno may well be respected in the industry but KT isnt! KT and his run-around/delay on paying up is making Deno- who is only doing his job- look bad.
Like one poster said, they said the check was in the mail .....and it wasnt.
Gabber........cant pay or wont pay???????????? You would think that $5,000 would be peanuts for a zillionaire .You would also think that they would be extra quick to pay Jay , just to shut him up!
How many are still waiting to be paid, I wonder. Anybody know?
Last edited:
As a caveat, I empathize with Jay's position.
There is no question that the IPT is experiencing "growing," for lack of a better word, pains in getting Kevin Trudeau's Vision off the ground. The huge endeavor of creating a legitimate tour with qualifiers on an INTERNATIONAL basis is just that: a very huge endeavor.
Deno Andrews is the IPT tour director. He can only address problems that fall within his own IPT realm of knowledge and capabilities. Deno is the liaison or, another way of putting it, the "middle man" at this juncture. He cannot remedy a problem that may fall outside of his duties as the IPT tour director. His hands are tied unless he is the one who actually sits down and writes the "bonus" checks. Talk about being caught between a rock and a hard place.
In closing, again, I empathize with Jay Helfert and hope this situation is remedied soon, which I think will happen.
JAM
There is no question that the IPT is experiencing "growing," for lack of a better word, pains in getting Kevin Trudeau's Vision off the ground. The huge endeavor of creating a legitimate tour with qualifiers on an INTERNATIONAL basis is just that: a very huge endeavor.
Deno Andrews is the IPT tour director. He can only address problems that fall within his own IPT realm of knowledge and capabilities. Deno is the liaison or, another way of putting it, the "middle man" at this juncture. He cannot remedy a problem that may fall outside of his duties as the IPT tour director. His hands are tied unless he is the one who actually sits down and writes the "bonus" checks. Talk about being caught between a rock and a hard place.
In closing, again, I empathize with Jay Helfert and hope this situation is remedied soon, which I think will happen.
JAM
watchez said:
Come on, now.
watchez said:
Pool's toughest critics are within its own culture.
watchez said:
I did witness the players get paid at the IPT King of the Hill Shootout in Orlando, FL this past December. Each of the 42 competitors, with check in hand, had their photograph taken with Deno Andrews, all of which are posted on the IPT website. And, FWIW, Keith's check cleared just fine.
watchez said:
"Complex" is the key word here. How many multi-million-dollar corporations have you, I, or anyone run, Watchez? Sure as hell, nobody has EVER made a multi-million-dollar investment in pool during my lifetime.
watchez said:And if Deno called Jay threatening him & cursing him out, I would call that very unprofessional.
Tape-recording a phone conversation may, or may not, be illegal in some jurisdictions. Ask Linda Tripp of the Monica Lewinsky era.
watchez said:AZMike, does KT pay his advertising bill with you on time? Just curious.
Do you actually think this inquiry worthy of a response, Watchez?
JAM
Fyi
Following my latest post yesterday, Deno called me and had a totally different attitude. He apologized for the foul-up and said he wanted to get me paid. He said he would try to have a replacement (?) check overnited to me.
I told him I no longer trust the IPT and will believe it when I see it. Thanks to this public forum I may actually get paid. We'll see.
Following my latest post yesterday, Deno called me and had a totally different attitude. He apologized for the foul-up and said he wanted to get me paid. He said he would try to have a replacement (?) check overnited to me.
I told him I no longer trust the IPT and will believe it when I see it. Thanks to this public forum I may actually get paid. We'll see.
JAM said:Tape-recording a phone conversation may, or may not, be illegal in some jurisdictions. Ask Linda Tripp of the Monica Lewinsky era.
I believe that taping a phone conversation is legal as long as one of the parties involved knows the conversation is being taped. It is only illegal if somehow I place a recording device on your phone to listen to a call between you & Deno. Is Linda Tripp in jail?
JAM said:
Sure it is worthy of a response based on the situation Jay has been put in. All of this would have been avoided if the check would have been received in a timely manner. Even after Jay's uproar, over two weeks have gone by & he still has not received a check. Replacement check on it's way? That is a good one. I wonder how the complex accountanting of the IPT dealt with that one.
watchez said:
Not true, Watchez. The laws vary from State to State.
watchez said:Is Linda Tripp in jail?
No. Linda Tripp is not in jail, but her lawyers must have enjoyed stuffing their deep pockets trying to defend Linda Tripp against the charge of recording a telephone conversation without another party's knowledge in the State of Maryland.
watchez said:
Financial transactions such as payment for advertisements is between the IPT and AzBilliards, and quite frankly, IMHO, it isn't anybody's business except the parties involved. Why do you, as a member of AzBilliards Discussion Forum, think you are entitled to a reply about a business matter that doesn't involve you personally?
JAM
Laws DO vary from state to state.
In California for instance, to legally record a telephone conversation, you have to either inform the other party it is being recorded and have them verbally acknowledge it or have a certain sequence of beeps in the background that if informed about the beeps tells them that they are being recorded. It is on the owness of the recordee to know that the beeps mean they are being recorded.
In California for instance, to legally record a telephone conversation, you have to either inform the other party it is being recorded and have them verbally acknowledge it or have a certain sequence of beeps in the background that if informed about the beeps tells them that they are being recorded. It is on the owness of the recordee to know that the beeps mean they are being recorded.