Is a Straight Stroke All That Important?

[lfigueroa]

I've alway thought Buddy Hall and his coke bottle routine, exemplified swingin' straight. Don't remember him doing much else, probably why it always looked simple and in slow motion.

Where or when does Buddy describe his "Coke bottle" routine?

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

To be fair, Lou, we now know that a lot of what Willie "taught" in the little red book, 1.) isn't what he himself used (what he shows/poses in the pictures for, isn't what you'll see from him in real life play), and 2.) isn't what is commonly taught as "standard template" for foundational play.

There are several good examples of this, but two off the top of my head are his grip and his bridge -- what he used in real life, and what he poses/shows in the pictures, are two different things.

I wouldn't go as far as to say "detrimental" either. As long as you can pivot at the shoulder (drop the elbow) perfectly in-line with the shot everytime the cue makes contact with the cue ball, there's nothing "detrimental" about that at all. The problem is that's a variable -- that's something else that can go wrong, rather than keeping the movement simple by moving only one joint in the arm. The shoulder is a ball-and-socket joint, able to move in any direction; the elbow is a hinge that only moves in the direction of the cue delivery.

It's not a "detrimental" question as much as it is a "keeping it simple" question.

I drop my elbow, too, when I'm really powering into the cue ball -- it's the natural after effect of the momentum of the forearm moving forward at high speed. The elbow drop is not as pronounced as, say, Mike Sigel (mine is only about one or two inches at the maximum, whereas Mike's whole arm almost "folds down onto" the cue).

I get what you're saying, though -- the "effort" of trying to pin the elbow can take away from the sensitivity in how hard the cue ball is hit. I guess the trick is to find that happy medium.

-Sean

How/where do we know what he taught in his books wasn't what he used?! I mean, I know the books were kinda ghost written, but do you really think he would put his name to something that he didn't believe it, even if it was wrong?

How do you know this?

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

And when you have incorporated Mosconi's elbow drop with McCready's side arm and Bustamante's preparation you will have the bare essentials of the American stoke as it is seen on display in pool rooms throughout the U.S.A.

Of course reductio ad adsurdum will get you there, but I'm talking real life. While often absurd, at least it's a little more realistic.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

By swiping your tip across the ball?

pj
chgo

No. More like slicing or penetrating the cue ball at different angles. Think pin cushion and needles stuck in it at close, but different angles.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

if you cant cue the ball properly EVERYTHING else becomes irrelevant

Define "properly."

Lou Figueroa

 

[ShootingArts]

so you are saying it doesn't matter where you put your bridge to hit center ball?

I used to think so too, but I've since realized there is no difference other than method of application. See this previous post about it.

That previous post shows that the "effective CB center" doesn't change if the CB's path doesn't change (i.e., when you change the angle of attack on the CB to compensate for squirt).



What that previous post doesn't show, but is a related point, is that backhand english and "parallel" english are identical at the moment the tip hits the CB (i.e., with both techniques the tip hits the CB at the same spot and from the same angle). This is why I dislike the term "parallel english": it misleads about what really happens.


No prob - I gotta make a little bacon too...

pj
chgo

PJ,

If the angle doesn't matter when you hit a cue ball off center it surely shouldn't matter when you hit it center ball. Therefore we must conclude from your statements that bridge placement is of very minor importance. You can place your eyes to line up the shot, drop your bridge hand down on the table, and hit the same place on the cue ball as if you were aligned properly and the balls will be pocketed just as often.

Is this your position? If not please explain the difference between hitting a spot off center of the cue ball at various angles and hitting the centerline of a cue ball at various angles.

Exaggeration often makes things plain. If you use one tip of english using parallel english let's define that as a 90 degree angle, the cue is roughly perpendicular to the point it is hitting.(I know it is a few degrees off 90, not relevent here) If angle doesn't matter then I can hit that same point on the cue ball with the cue stick at a 60 degree angle, even a thirty degree angle and it will behave exactly the same. In fact I can hit it at a 330 degree angle or 300 degree angle and it will behave exactly the same. By taking things to ridiculous extremes it becomes obvious that the angle the cue hits the cue ball, the direction of force, is a factor. If it is a factor at sixty degrees it is also a factor at six degrees or even six minutes. The only question is how much of a factor?

I think the fact that it is very significant is easily proven by the fact we can't just slap our bridge hand down anywhere and pocket balls hitting the center of the cue ball without compensation in our aim.

Hu

 

[Patrick Johnson]

PJ,

If the angle doesn't matter when you hit a cue ball off center...

We've miscommunicated somewhere. Of course it matters at what angle you hit the CB. I can't tell where you think I said that - if you'll show me I'll try to clarify.

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

We've miscommunicated somewhere. Of course it matters at what angle you hit the CB. I can't tell where you think I said that - if you'll show me I'll try to clarify.

pj
chgo

PJ,

The quote below from this thread refers to the swoop stroke but you have made the same statement many times concerning backhand english and parallel english. As it happens I agree that with a gradual swoop there is no practical difference between a swoop and backhand english. There is a difference between the effect of either and parallel english.

Hu

Here's a test: Use a marked cue ball (maybe an object ball) with the marking facing you so you can confirm that you hit the same spot on the CB with a normal "parallel" english stroke and your "swipe" stroke. Be sure the CB goes in the same direction both ways (perpendicular into a rail) at about the same speed (so it stops about the same distance), and see how much angle change you get. If you really test this carefully I promise you won't get more spin one way or the other.
pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Hu:
...As it happens I agree that with a gradual swoop there is no practical difference between a swoop and backhand english. There is a difference between the effect of either and parallel english.

If there's a difference between a swoop and backhand english, it must be that a backhand english stroke is straight. Then what's the difference between backhand english and "parallel" english? They're both a straight stroke through the same bridge, right?

pj
chgo

 

[Island Drive]

Where or when does Buddy describe his "Coke bottle" routine?

Lou Figueroa

Lou, yrs ago he used his name, to sell a tube of some type that you could set on a table at home and swing in and out of it, the coke bottle I'm pretty sure he was using as an example before he had this (stroke trainer?) tube made, it was a Long time ago, I'm sure the product can be found somewhere in one of the Old BD or P&B mags, it was kinda at the beginning of the development of allot of the training aids that were being sold to improve ones game.

 

[Island Drive]

Greetings Professor Drive.

Would you like to play a game?

View attachment 229271

Thanks for clarifying you point...........

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou, yrs ago he used his name, to sell a tube of some type that you could set on a table at home and swing in and out of it, the coke bottle I'm pretty sure he was using as an example before he had this (stroke trainer?) tube made, it was a Long time ago, I'm sure the product can be found somewhere in one of the Old BD or P&B mags, it was kinda at the beginning of the development of allot of the training aids that were being sold to improve ones game.

ah, I think I vaguely remember that. Thanks Dave.

Lou Figueroa

 

[BasementDweller]

It's all I Care About

I spent way too much time in the past missing balls and then having no idea what went wrong when I did miss. I was the typical pool player, having the whatever felt right at the time mechanics. If I was missing a lot of shots I would adjust this or that. Or I would conclude that my aim was off, which a lot of times it probably was since I wasn't getting the proper feedback since I didn't have rock solid fundamentals. Now that my fundamentals have gotten better (huge part of this is a straight stroke) and I've burned into my memory how this stroke feels, I can now feel why I miss.

I know the OP is specifically about the straight stroke and not about fundamentals overall so with that in mind I recall what Johnny Archer said in a recent podcast. He was talking about the straight stroke and how working on that is about the only drill that he does. He shoots a shot and pays close attention to his finish position, making sure that he is stroking straight. He also mentioned that he believed that Francisco Bustamante had one of the straightest deliveries of any player on the planet. I've heard several other pros recently say a very similar thing about how they focus on straight cueing.

Jesse Allred made a very compelling post about cueing a while back here:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=3328621#post3328621

Here's what he said if you don't want to follow the link:

"I think the misconception happens because talented players can overcome not having sound form and stroke principles with disgusting amounts of practice and competition. I don't like the term fundamental either because it has multiple meanings.

I spent 10 years gambling and playing every waking moment after dropping out of school at 13 years old using a form and stroke that wasn't " fundamentally" correct and it kept me from getting past a certain level and the progress stopped. A couple sessions with a coach to "fix" bobbing elbow, inward arm, rear hand too far forward, bridge hand too loose, head raising, stance wrong, eye pattern backwards, crooked stroke..etc, 6 months of doing nothing but drills on my form and stroke without a single recreational game and the jeers from the gamblers I stopped playing with and painful countless hours spent learning the new stroke in front of a mirror and camera and

I went from being an average player to winning $7,000 the first month back playing, two big regional tournament wins, suddenly winning 90% of the weekly tournaments and being one of the top players everywhere I moved from then on.

If anyone asks me if they can get past the "amateur" level without fixing issues that make sense to the pool form and stroke ("fundamentals") I have to stop myself from choking with laughter. Those that do become world class without it have an extra level that the majority of us can't attain without a lifetime of practice. Just because those special exceptions can do it doesn't make fundamentals a myth."

Now maybe he's not talking specifically about a "Straight Stroke" but I would imagine that's a least a major part of it. As far as I'm concerned, it's pretty much all I care about.

 

[Neil]

.............

 

[ShootingArts]

a little bit of information, running again!

If there's a difference between a swoop and backhand english, it must be that a backhand english stroke is straight. Then what's the difference between backhand english and "parallel" english? They're both a straight stroke through the same bridge, right?

pj
chgo

PJ,

Here we get into motion arms and leverage. Throw in co-efficient of friction just for grins. The stick is pointed in a different direction when shooting parallel english and backhand english. With a straight stroke the direction of force is the direction the stick is moving. Therefore there are two differences. One, we reach the miscue limit slightly sooner with backhand english. Two, since the effective distance from the center axis of the cue ball to a point at a right angle to the cue ball's primary path is greater, backhand english generates slightly more spin for the same offset. A negative and a positive that are largely offsetting. Then there is the question of tip contact patch on the cue ball. At some amount of offset the tip contact patch becomes greater with parallel english because we reach the edge of the tip with parallel english. It is already at a steeper angle to the surface of the cue ball and now we can't make full contact, miscue time.

It should be possible to proove which is better for at least a particular tip and shaft but as far as I know it has never been done.

The line of force of a gradual swoop hitting the cue ball in the same spot as using backhand english is almost identical. The line of force using a swoop is substantially different than the line of force using parallel english when hitting the cue ball in the same spot.

Hu

 

[luckwouldhaveit]

It's all about what kind of tolerances you're working with. I think for a very serious player, it IS that important. Pocketing comes to mind first, but stroking straight effects virtually all aspects of the game. From accuracy of lines, safety play especially thinning balls, slow-rolling, to breaking..the list goes on.

Stroke mechanics aside, what's important is contacting the cue ball where you intend to. Simply put, with smaller tolerances that's more likely to happen more consistently.

Everyone needs to read this post above 3-4 times real slow so it sinks in and you really understand it.

I agree that good fundamentals are key, especially when trying to reach a high level of play in anything. But I can't agree with your interpretation of stroke mechanics and frankly I perceive you as someone attempting to teach others something you don't understand.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The stick is pointed in a different direction when shooting parallel english and backhand english.

But if they're both straight strokes and they both hit the same spot on the CB, then they must be pointed in the same direction or the CB will go in different directions.

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Almost no one has a TRULY straight stroke. Almost NO ONE.

Therefore, regardless of what we discuss theoretically, one's advancement in this game is in direct proportion to how they manage inherent imperfections: learning how to "play" your imperfect stroke "consistently."

People often think they stroke straight. They don't. They merely stroke "straight enough." Earl and Hopkins have the straightest strokes I've ever seen, imo.

So, while we all agree straight strokes are the nirvana of pool --- very, very, very, very few ever really achieve that. Those who don't, however, might still be able to spot you the 5-out. There really isn't any correlation between playing ability and having a laser-straight stroke (straight strokes play well; but, crooked strokes can still play super well and are not guaranteed to be dogs).

Super consistent imperfect stroke = straight stroke (players learn to make the required adjustment)

 

[cookie man]

But if they're both straight strokes and they both hit the same spot on the CB, then they must be pointed in the same direction or the CB will go in different directions.

pj
chgo

The CB will squirt differently but not necessarily go in different directions. With both strokes you can hit the same spot on CB to make the same shot. Your aimpoint might be a little different.

 

[Jdale]

Backhand english is usually applied by pivoting the cue before stroking, and then stroking straight at the new angle. The new angle is the same aim adjustment you'd make "by feel" for the same sidespin shot, just applied "mechanically" using BHE.

The "swiping" method some are discussing here is not the typical method of applying backhand english, it just results in the same thing if you're lucky enough to hit the same sidespin spot on the CB. It isn't recommended.

pj
chgo

Thanks for the simple explanation, being old school, I think for me I'll aim stroke straight through the Cb and deal with the english / squire. I'm afraid I would just confuse myself any other way.
Dale